Ukraine v Russia II

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by crazypete13, Apr 20, 2022.

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  1. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    After 8 mins the camera perspective changes and you can see there were guys in that treeline who got hit - i think that is who they were going after. The shots at the base of the T might have been pre-sighted to stop anyone coming through there

    A couple of RPGs also hit the trench - hard to see where they were fired from
     
  2. spejic

    spejic Cautionary example

    Mar 1, 1999
    San Rafael, CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    That's what all the land is, except for towns and various water features. These treelines are the only cover and the main paths to move. Sometimes there are other geographic features (raised railroads were a notable defensive position in a couple of battles last fall). But if you not there, you aren't anywhere.

    And this is what a "front line" looks like almost everywhere except the most densely packed areas. A series of separate outposts. By being at a crossroads, these guys cover miles of territory because anyone moving through or around two whole farms have to go through there. Mobile defense means most of the defense is behind, waiting to go to a place that is needed. These people in the trench have the job of calling in the attack and slowing them down. If they are lucky, reinforcements will come in time to pick up prisoners and intelligence. If not, you bought time for them to respond.
     
  3. Yoshou

    Yoshou Fan of the CCL Champ

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I counted those in the hits. However, there were a lot of shots that missed badly, or they landed on pretty much on the spot you mentioned earlier where the guy was about to shoot an RPG, but a shell landed between him and a group of other Russians.

    From what it looked like, there was 2 hits on the group of 3 Russians approaching the trench from the side which ended their approach. 1 round that you mentioned that killed/wounded 5-6. A couple hits in the forest to the right of that group, then a number of hits on the same spot that got 5-6, but they were already dead. The rest missed significantly, or didn’t appear to hurt/kill any Russians.
     
  4. marek

    marek Member+

    Lechia Gdańsk
    Jun 27, 2000
    Club:
    OSP Lechia Gdansk
    Nat'l Team:
    Poland

    upload_2023-3-24_19-20-18.jpeg
     
  5. Ceres

    Ceres Member+

    Jan 18, 2004
    Aarhus, Denmark
    Club:
    AGF Aarhus
    Nat'l Team:
    Denmark
    #8755 Ceres, Mar 24, 2023
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2023


    Yes, this was the old 2022 expenditure, and Poland is still doing it's best to lead the way, also regarding MiG-29 fighter jets, which is also very much with the support of the Danish parliament, but we cannot do ourselves without the approval of the US, because they decide if F-16's can be donated.

    I can't speak for other European countries, regarding the general energy and food crisis, but here in Denmark the harvest was vastly better in 2022 than in 2021. The harvest of grain went up by 1 million ton from 8.8 million ton to 9.8 million ton, so the Danish farmers were earning vastly more than usual, also when you deduct the higher transport cost and much higher cost of fertilizer for the next harvest.

    Denmark have also had an increasing government budget surplus the past two years in a row. It went from a small $613 million budget deficit in 2020 (obviously because of the covid-19 crisis) to a surprising $8.4 billion surplus in 2021 and a now recently revealed, and just as surprising $18.4 billion surplus in 2022, which is around $7.5 billion more than estimated in August 2022. Denmark's gross domestic product (GDP) also went up by 1.1% in the fourth quarter of 2022, primarily driven by strong industrial performance, and Statistics Denmark have now revealed that the full year GDP growth in 2022 was 3.6%.

    Obviously there is a lot of reasons for this, one of them being that the huge Danish biotechnology and pharmaceutical industry (Novo Nordisk, Lundbeck, LEO Pharma, Orifarm, ALK-Abello, Bavarian Nordic, William Cook and so forth) have been doing much better than expected, the worlds largest container shipping company Maersk having made their largest profit ever, LEGO is doing great as as usual, but obviously when prices go up the 25% VAT sales taxes also increase and cover higher expenses, and then Denmark produce around 3 times as much food as the Danes can possibly consume, not to forget that gas and oil is no longer as important as renewables, so there is no real energy and food shortage/crisis, even though prices have gone up.
     
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  6. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    #8756 The Jitty Slitter, Mar 25, 2023
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2023
    The issue of how much countries are giving is separate to the NATO commitments and quite complicated

    e.g in 2022 Germany gave 12bn to Ukraine - second only to US - in a mixture of money, humanitarian aid and military aid. 7bn of this was via the EU. None of this counts towards the 2%, yet represents an additional 25% of the '22 defence budget

    IIRC europe is keeping the economic lights on in Ukraine with actual cash. Doesn't count towards NATO.

    US is giving billions in weapons mostly from stockpiles - so often not actually new spend

    Indeed most of the military aid being given has $$ value, but it not new spending

    New spending takes time to ramp up due to slow procurement

    e.g Germany has allocated a special fund of 100bn to revamp the Bundeswehr equivalent to 2 years spending. However little of that money has been spent yet. An example is the huge eurofighter acquisition contracts which takes a long time.

    This is really the frustration. As the defence industry is too weak or not adapted for the new needs, you can't just run out and spend an extra 10bn in '23 because you want to actually improve your capabilities for the money not waste the money via inefficient procurement.

    Leo2 is a good example of this. You can order 100 today, but when do you actually get them ....
     
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  7. Ceres

    Ceres Member+

    Jan 18, 2004
    Aarhus, Denmark
    Club:
    AGF Aarhus
    Nat'l Team:
    Denmark
    The latest news about the Ukrainian war according to Anders Puck Nielsen who is a Military analyst at the Defense Academy Centre for Maritime Operations in Denmark, and used to be Commanding Officer of the DIANA-class patrol boats for the Royal Danish Navy, and is considered the most prominent military analyst in Denmark :

     
  8. waitforit

    waitforit Member+

    Dec 3, 2010
    Valcea
    Club:
    FC Steaua Bucuresti
    Nat'l Team:
    Romania
    I have written here about this while USA is top in terms of "value" + actual money .... EU countries with Germany leading the pack have contributed a lot and could be no1 in actual money given


    Also when EU does something that money is also from countries of the EU.
    So while Germany gives 100 million an extra 50 million of the 100 mil given by EU it is also by Germany

    PS 6 million Ukrainian refugees is a lot of money. If one refugees costs 5 euro a day that is 11 billion for 1 year

    Like you said Europe is keeping the economic lights on in Ukraine with actual cash
    And to be fair Zelenskyy has thanked and expressed how much EU has helped.

    .
    That is simply my opinion: That is why Germany hesitated with the tanks. Not because of wanting USA to do it too. Abrams is still impractical IMO

    Scholz feared that the countries who have and gave Leo2 will want to re-up on newer tanks and because Germany wasn't able to produce the numbers needed those countries will go USA MIC

    So a lot of behind the scenes was not how much to give was countries pledging to buy German.
    And if you look NATO countries indeed ordered Leo 2A7.Italy wants 250. Norway 54. Portugal to upgrade some old ones to 2A6. Czech Republic wants some 2A7
     
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  9. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    You could write a book on it, but the short version is German procurement and defence industry is somewhat broken (despite being a significant arms exporter). So the focus has tended to be wanting to get value out of the 50bn per year already spent instead of throwing 10bn suddenly on top of that

    The reality is EU countries are committed way over their 2% spend since the start of the war and I don't think that 2014 number is very relevant to what is happening in '23

    i.e. it's not a money problem
     
  10. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    You might end up scratching out your own eyes, but this Focus Group with Tom Nichols is absolutely fascinating and demonstrates the incredible damage Tucker and co have done to the war effort in the last year.

    It's also very interesting in that it shows how the right's distrust of the establishment grew up out of Iraq, yet instead of blaming Republicans, they tend to blame the "liberal" pentagon

    I could weep

     
  11. Boandlkramer

    Boandlkramer Member+

    Apr 9, 2009
    Samma Weltmeister!
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    It’s wild. Supporting UKR matters and doesn’t have to be an endorsement of someone’s other policies
     
  12. babaorum

    babaorum Member+

    Aug 20, 2005
    Marseille
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    Does it ? It's quite doubtul France needs that reform. I'd rather say Macron is convinced HE needs that reform to politically survive. It's too late btw - the more the time passes, the more he gets isolated in his own country, facing a pre-revolutionary situation. He got trapped himself. He needs to stop it right now. It's just that his huge ego prevents him to do that.
     
  13. babaorum

    babaorum Member+

    Aug 20, 2005
    Marseille
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    He's safe, but he's politically doomed.
     
  14. Ceres

    Ceres Member+

    Jan 18, 2004
    Aarhus, Denmark
    Club:
    AGF Aarhus
    Nat'l Team:
    Denmark
    Well, Greece who on paper seem to spend the most in NATO according to their (not that impressive) GDP are always the last to participate and donate, just as we have seen in Ukraine. Germany do not like to donate much but humanitarian aid defensive measures, while Denmark is always there actually contributing and fighting with all they got, despite the fairly low GDP contribution, so the GDP figures are useless as a measuring stick.
     
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  15. Sometimes I think:
    "Millennials should know Italian politics because it's intentionally funny".
     
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  16. It's amazing Xi doesnot grasp this and continues to support Pootin in his ways. Some political analysts suggest that he wants to avoid a Russian defeat, but given what the West considers being at stake and the dependence economically of China on the West he's one step from the abyss that makes him/China an immediate existential threat which will make the current skirmishes in tech/economic war like childs play.
    Could be that he is keeping up a pretence to the outside worl and uses a diffrent tone towards Pootin, but I doubt it.
    He truly should count his blessings regarding his/China's position in a world with a defeated Russia against those in which he actually sides with Pootin to prevent his defeat.
     
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  17. ceezmad

    ceezmad Member+

    Mar 4, 2010
    Chicago
    Club:
    Chicago Red Stars
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Nah, the best political position is to do nothing, reforms are needed but they can not be agreed on, Macron is doing the difficult thing.
     
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  18. Maybe they choose suicide by artillery, given how shit their life has been and because of Pootin only got worse.
     
  19. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    Apparently there were 8 defenders in the trench and the attacks went on for more than a day - there are more parts to the video
     
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  20. ChrisSSBB

    ChrisSSBB Member+

    Jun 22, 2005
    DE
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Bleak.
     
  21. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    Seems like Vasquez and others might be grifting

    e.g raising lots of money from donors and misusing

     
  22. spejic

    spejic Cautionary example

    Mar 1, 1999
    San Rafael, CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    I'm guessing (and it's certainly a guess) they were simply ordered to go to that location and fire on the trench from there. There are plenty of videos of Ukrainian troops storming trenches just like this one, and the ones doing the assaulting always come from the side, which because of the nature of the treeline will always be a vulnerability. If you have someone noticeable firing at the trench from, say, the front, it makes the job of the ones attacking from the side easier.

    Retreating while their comrades are still attacking would probably get a severe penalty once they get back. And they wouldn't move in that treeline on their left because, at least according to Rommel's first battle in his book Infantry Attacks, being in the middle of trees during an artillery barrage is very bad.
     
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  23. waitforit

    waitforit Member+

    Dec 3, 2010
    Valcea
    Club:
    FC Steaua Bucuresti
    Nat'l Team:
    Romania
    So how is Elba these days??
     
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  24. xtomx

    xtomx Member+

    Chicago Fire
    Sep 6, 2001
    Northern Wisconsin, but not far from civilization
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    #8774 xtomx, Mar 25, 2023
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2023
    Just released the new "Luther" movie.
    Waiting for the call as James Bond. Frankly, he would be great, but, at 50, is a bit old to take on the role.
    Wait, wrong Elba?!?
     
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  25. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    That is my guess as to what they were supposed to do but the guys in the centre who were supposed to lay down the suppressing fire got smoked and the guys advancing to the T took several direct hits.
     

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