Greatness ....what is your parameter?

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by LaPulga22, Mar 22, 2023.

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  1. LaPulga22

    LaPulga22 Member

    Messi FC
    Argentina
    Mar 10, 2023
    When it comes to goat debates or comparing player´s in general which parameter do u use ? If i would rank all of my personal criterias out of 100 % it would be
    40% Overall Footballing Ability
    30%Perfomances in Big Competitions(WC,UCL,COPA,EUROS,BIG LEAUGE GAMES)
    25%Consistency
    5%Trophies
     
  2. Al Gabiru

    Al Gabiru Member

    Jan 28, 2020
    I put Pelé and Messi as number 1 and 2 because both were capable of scoring many goals, assists and dribbling at a high level (world cup, champion etc) for a long period of time (+10 years).

    I prefer Pelé because he was less exposed with defeats than Messi. He was more athletic and versatile too. Being able to finish in different ways (left, right, heading) made Pelé fit in any team. Although I think Messi is faster than Pele.

    Personally, I would fill my list with other players capable of scoring a lot of goals and giving a lot of assists (Di Stefano, Puskas, Cruyff, Maradona) although they did it in a shorter period of time.

    Some players have this characteristic [goals + assists + dribbling] but they don't have so many achievements [zico, platini, neymar], so I would put them lower

    This criterion has the defect of underestimating other positions, but it is what I use at bar tables
     
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  3. LaPulga22

    LaPulga22 Member

    Messi FC
    Argentina
    Mar 10, 2023
    i can´t lie based on footage available from pele i think maradona and messi are superior just from an Eye Test perspective.
     
  4. Doc_Exec

    Doc_Exec Member

    Jul 7, 2004
    You did not list eye test as your criteria for measuring greatness though. Based on your criteria, Pele is comfortably ahead of anyone else.

    Eye test is subjective. Regarding eye test, here are some examples that show Pele's overall footballing ability being of a wider range than anyone else's (at least post-war).











    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ioA0DwrriWM&list=LL&index=27&t=266s


    Big game performance: Player performance - Goal contribution in finals shorter.jpg
     
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  5. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #5 carlito86, Mar 24, 2023
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2023
    That final thing is really disingenuous a best though

    Off the top of my head I know Romario did not score or assist in any of the following major finals


    World Cup final
    Copa libertadores final
    Champions league final
    Copa del Rey final
    KNVB final
    UEFA cup winners Cup final

    He scored one goal in the 89 Copa final for Brazil


    And a hat trick vs Australia in the 97 confed final
    but he ends up third here
    Even then is Australia a heavyweight team and is the confederations Cup a major final?





    Instead of bunching goals/assist stats of finals with varying degrees of importance

    There should be a score system awarding goals/assists in World Cup finals the highest
    Then European Championship finals
    Then CL/EC finals
    Then Copa America finals
    Then copa libertadores finals
    Then club World Cup finals
    Then Top 5 European league domestic league cup finals


    Then 1 game competitions like the Uefa super Cup
    Then other ones maybe like the Supercoppa España,community shield( in England) and the nearest equivalents in European football at the bottom

    That’s fairer to me
    With all due respect to Romario and his legendary career he was not impactful in the vast majority of career defining finals he participated in
    If he was as great in “major finals” as this table implies there would be absolutely no doubt at all regarding his position as a lock top 10 all timer and that simply isn’t the case
     
  6. LaPulga22

    LaPulga22 Member

    Messi FC
    Argentina
    Mar 10, 2023
    no eye test basically means footballing ability you can only rate someones footballing ability when you use the Eye Test. A lot of people think eye test means how entertained you are by a player but that´s not the case for me.Based on footage available i consider Messi and Maradona just overall better footballers than Pele.
     
  7. Doc_Exec

    Doc_Exec Member

    Jul 7, 2004
    I agree. I don't have all the data to do it but we can do it jointly. The table has Romario in third place because it is organized in terms of team goal contribution % in finals. It could be ordered differently, for example, in terms of goals + assists per 90 min and Romario will not be at no. 3. But I agree with the weighting approach.
     
  8. Doc_Exec

    Doc_Exec Member

    Jul 7, 2004
    And that is absolutely fine as it is your subjective judgement. Others of course think differently (there wouldn't be millions of CR7 fans worldwide otherwise). Consequently, eye test cannot be an objective evaluation criteria.
     
  9. LaPulga22

    LaPulga22 Member

    Messi FC
    Argentina
    Mar 10, 2023
    I mean yeah you need to have a certain Level of Understanding the Game before you can even Use the EyeTest and rate someone’s Ability.There are People who think Cristiano doing 400 stepovers and One Backheel pass is Better than a Di Maria who can actually dribble 2-3 Defenders in tight spaces for example.
     
  10. Doc_Exec

    Doc_Exec Member

    Jul 7, 2004
    #10 Doc_Exec, Mar 24, 2023
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2023
    I hope you realize that what you are labelling as an "eye test" is basically your subjective bias. The first goal in this video that I shared previously in which Pele dribbles past 5 Hamburg players in the tightest of spaces using single touches of the ball is something no one else can do. Neither can anyone do all the things Pele does in the video. But somehow "eye test" of some individuals suggests that some players are "better." Eye test is thus merely subjective and isn't a valid method of evaluating payers. CR7 annihilates Di Maria in almost every aspect of football "objectively." Personally liking one player over another need not be based on objective parameters; however, when comparing players and their greatness, objective parameters are the only things that matter.

     
  11. Doc_Exec

    Doc_Exec Member

    Jul 7, 2004
    This is ideal but isn't easy to do, especially if one factors in the number of minutes played in each final. A lot of data and time would be needed for this. Also, is there a consensus on what weight % should be applied to each category of finals?
     
  12. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    5 points for non penalty goals in WC finals

    4.5 points for penalty goals in WC finals

    4.5 points for non penalty goals in EURO championship finals

    4 points for penalty goals in EURO championship finals

    4 points for non penalty goals in CL/EC finals

    3.5 points for penalty goals in CL/EC finals

    3.5 points for non penalty goals in Copa America finals

    3 points for penalty goals in Copa America finals

    3 points for non penalty goals in Copa America
    Etc...
    Something along those lines


    I'm willing to raise the importance of goals in Copa libertadores finals during Peles time(vs the likes of penarol) to the same level as CL/EC final goals

    For ones like Neymar,Romario,tevez,Riquelme Etc the copa libertadores is barely superior to the FA Cup IMO if at all

    the latter stages of the modern day FA cup are very arguably more difficult than the KO stages of the Modern era copa libertadores
     
  13. Doc_Exec

    Doc_Exec Member

    Jul 7, 2004
    I think the difference between levels should be at least 1 point. Also, penalties should be removed or heavily discounted (because it is much easier to get penalties these days...ball touching the hand inadvertently or a feather touch from a defender inside the box is called these days).
     
  14. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    All goals are credited

    If you want to argue they should have a lower score that is something else.
    Much lower score I’m not buying that and totally discounted is like creating another game not called football
    I haven’t seen anyone here suggest Mbappe didn’t actually score a hat trick in a WC final even though 2 thirds of his hattrick compromised of penalties he didn’t even win
     
  15. Doc_Exec

    Doc_Exec Member

    Jul 7, 2004
    Penalties introduce bias as they are far easier to get nowadays. Have a look at this foul against Amarildo in the Brazil vs Spain 1962 World Cup match. It wasn't even called whereas nowadays such a foul would not only be a penalty, it would likely be a red card. In certain games, feather touches by defenders were called as penalties in the last World Cup. So, I would count penalties but add much less weight to them.
     
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  16. lessthanjake

    lessthanjake Member+

    May 9, 2015
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Honestly, I think it almost all simply comes down to how well someone played and for how long.

    Things like trophies are just evidence of this. As in, most of what we talk about is just a proxy for determining how well a player played. For instance, a player isn’t greater than another player simply because they won more trophies. Rather, we talk about a player winning more trophies because one can draw a reasonable inference that the player who won more trophies played better. And something like the eye test is another example of something that is simply evidence/arguments people use to get to the question of how well someone played. The same is true of talking about consistency, etc.

    I do think there’s a separate big-game performance factor that should be layered in there though, because some matches matter more than others, so two players with equal average levels of play can have different levels of greatness if one player’s better matches happened to be more efficiently allocated to the more important matches.

    So, in other words, I think it comes down to just an assessment of how well someone played on average and for how long, with higher weight being given to how well they played in important matches.

    If we were to describe a very simplistic mathematical model that would describe this, it’d be something like as follows:

    Greatness = Sum of ((Player’s Level in a match)-(Avg. Level of a Typical Replacement Player)*Match Leverage)

    So basically, for every match played, we’d ask how well a player played compared to a replacement-level player, multiply that by some assessment of the “leverage” (i.e. importance) of that match, and then sum it up for every match the player played. If we wanted to layer in some more complexity, then we might put an added leverage multiplier on matches in a player’s best 7 years or something, so we could get at least some weighting towards having a very high peak.
     
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  17. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    The sole objective of participating in a competitive sport is winning but you literally place the least emphasis (5%) on trophies

    What the hell is wrong with some people here LMAO

    Since when did greatness become attached to anything other than victory
    Alexander ‘The Great’ was great because he apparently conquered most of if not all of the known world

    You would have people believe he was great because he was a skilful swordsman or some other BS
     
  18. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Arsenal
    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Of course, there isn't. There is no objective way of doing it. There isn't even a subjective way of achieving consensus.

    Is a goal in the World Cup final worth more than a goal in a UCL final? Most of us would say yes. But then it's not clear to me Pogba's goal in the 2018 WC final added more to his legacy than Gerrard's goal in the 2005 UCL final? Or the Zidane's volley in the UCL final.

    Greatness is so subjective that I think attempts to quantify it is actually counter-productive in a lot of cases.
     
  19. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Arsenal
    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    I think what you're doing here is the common attempt at "Greatest career." Not just in terms of titles and accolades won, but literally greatness = the person who has contributed most to winning football games for his team.
     
  20. lessthanjake

    lessthanjake Member+

    May 9, 2015
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Yes, I think that’s a correct description. That said, what I’m talking about would almost certainly line up fairly closely with the results of an assessment of greatness that relied heavily on trophies won and big moments and whatnot, since the “leverage” part of the equation would be really high for the biggest matches, so you’d get a lot of credit for playing great (and therefore very likely winning) in those big matches.

    In any event, what I’m talking about is more a theoretical framework than it is something that would actually be practically useful. My post doesn’t answer the question of how we measure what a player’s level was in a match, or how we measure what a replacement level player’s level would be. Nor does it answer the question of what those “leverage” weights should be on different types of matches. So, in the end, I think the biggest point I’m making is just that I think a lot of factors we talk about are really just proxies for getting to the question of how well someone played.
     
  21. LaPulga22

    LaPulga22 Member

    Messi FC
    Argentina
    Mar 10, 2023
    the "perfomances in big competetions" goes hand in hand with trophies it´s not only about winning it´s about how you win and how you perform.Trophies at the end of the day is a Team effort.But if we compare individual Player´s the overall perfomance is much more important than the actual trophy for me.
     
  22. benficafan3

    benficafan3 Member+

    Nov 16, 2005
    Obviously context is required. Pogba has done a good job of destroying his legacy since that final so I'm sure that played into your selecting that as an example - imagine his legacy if he didn't win a World Cup. Even worse than it is now.

    Zidane's performance against Brazil in 98 >>> his volley in the Champions League final. The former contributed significantly more to his legacy. As it should - it won his country their first World Cup. The latter won his club their umpteenth Champions League. Boring by comparison.

    The Champions League is of a higher quality - the highest in fact - but the World Cup is rarer, has more pressure on players, and is still of a high enough level to be comparable to the Champions League. Take a look at World Cup champions and you'll see that there are no Greece 2004s or Denmark 1992s. You have to be good to win - no flukes allowed.

    I'd also go as far to say there is no higher pressure on an athlete, in any sport, than to compete for a World Cup title. There is no other sport that draws such pressure as football, and so in a World Cup match, more than any other event in all of sport, there is the highest level of pressure - a nation's expectations - all while the world is watching - and again, watching the World Cup more than any other event.

    Such a combination of factors (pressure and visibility) is the highest level in sport and to perform victoriously in such a situation requires, logically, the highest level of mental fortitude in sport.
     
  23. How about impacting how generations of football players play the game?
     
  24. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    8A8CC5EC-30F4-4083-8609-F7CADCA4A2AD.gif
     
  25. You have to be really good to be even in the semi finals.


    And luck!!
    Everything would be different if the Argentine goalie against France and the Spanish goalie against the Orange Squad barely touched the ball enough to divert it from going in.
    In 1978 the goal post kept the Argentine from defeat.
     

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