Racism - Always and Forever

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by soccernutter, Jul 27, 2020.

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  1. russ

    russ Member+

    Feb 26, 1999
    Canton,NY
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You forgot home "schooled ".
    Call CPS.
     
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  2. Q*bert Jones III

    Q*bert Jones III The People's Poet

    Feb 12, 2005
    Woodstock, NY
    Club:
    DC United
    Racist!!!
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maroons
     
  3. chaski

    chaski Moderator
    Staff Member

    Mar 20, 2000
    redacted
    Club:
    Lisburn Distillery FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Turks and Caicos Islands
    Huckleberry Finn learned about Boston Harbor, but misremembered and thought that Henry VIII was involved.

    Well, Henry be takes a notion he wants to get up some trouble with this country. How does he go at it—give notice?—give the country a show? No. All of a sudden he heaves all the tea in Boston Harbor overboard, and whacks out a declaration of independence, and dares them to come on. That was his style—he never give anybody a chance.​
     
  4. russ

    russ Member+

    Feb 26, 1999
    Canton,NY
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    By gar,dose Maroons use to play lesoiray du hockey in Montreal right with les Habitants dere.Dey call dem de Anglais team by gar,and us Frenchmen beat dem ever time calisse!
     
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  5. roby

    roby Member+

    SIRLOIN SALOON FC, PITTSFIELD MA
    Feb 27, 2005
    So Cal
    Everybody lighten up..."Maroons" is what us Eyties say when describing a person dumber than we are! :whistling:
     
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  6. taosjohn

    taosjohn Member+

    Dec 23, 2004
    taos,nm
    I'd argue-- am arguing-- the speed with which "we" backed away demonstrates that in fact it was inevitable.

    The people back home desperately wanted Johnny to come marching home, and they wanted him to win the war if possible, but they certainly did not want him bringing his comrade-in-arms Kunta Kinte back to meet the folks. That just wasn't done.

    And it is peculiar to see the Radicals described as "moderately conservative."

    And mostly the northern abolitionists' weren't even aware that those 180,000 had been "unleashed" because they mostly weren't; they were given garrison duty-- Wilmington and the Crater were not typical of their use. It was toward the very end of the war that enough people in authority became convinced that many or most of them were valid troops and could be used in the front lines. White soldiers hardly ever saw black ones supporting them in combat, and when they did they often did not trust them.
     
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  7. russ

    russ Member+

    Feb 26, 1999
    Canton,NY
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    At the Crater,they were sent in as forlorn hope,after the line had been restored,on the order of a general too drunk* to know the battle was in fact over.
    *This General was not Grant, btw.
     
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  8. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'd argue 'likely' is better than 'inevitable.'

    I'd also argue most revolutions fail, and most revolutionary moments fail to deliver on their promises--that doesn't mean they didn't happen.

    Of course--but the revolutionary potential wasn't on the northern home front, it was on the ground in the former slave states.

    Mea culpa--I was thinking of Seward, particularly as part of Johnson's cabinet.

    That said--the Radicals certainly had a different agenda than the emancipated people of the South did (radical, but to different ends), but I am again asking you to consider that wars--particularly a years-long modern war which mobilized entire societies and their economies--have a way of overrunning the channels and creating disruption beyond the neat and tidy plans of political leaders at the home front.

    The Union very well might not have won the war without them, though--as the occupying army, up to one-third of the total manpower of the Union war effort was involved in garrison duty, protecting supply lines, etc. And while Lost Cause historians wrote them out of the story for several generations, observers and leaders both military and civilian at the time understood that those 180,000 men played an important role in their victory.

    The fact that they were often denied combat duty was probably less impactful than the fact that they EVER took part in combat.

    The Union occupation in the immediate aftermath of the war not infrequently involved African-American Union troops, which was yet another massive shift in social relations and hierarchies.

    Recent historians have argued that sentiment among white Union soldiers was well ahead of their civilian peers on this issue by the end of the war. The movie "Glory" gets that right, according to them. There's plenty of written evidence from letters and camp newsletters than Union soldiers were on the vanguard of public opinion--after a brief backlash against African-American rights in the wake of the Emancipation Proclamation, the decision to arm black soldiers and enlist them in the fight--coupled with increasing first-hand experience with the realities of slavery as Union armies moved deeper into the South--reversed that backlash, to the point where Lincoln's reelection in 1864 could partially be attributed to overwhelming support from soldiers in the field--many of whom, again, left letters and camp newsletters attesting to their belief that saving the Union was insufficient--slavery had to be destroyed. And while few of them would have wanted their sister to marry a black man, there was plenty of fertile ground for the recognition of common humanity in that wartime comraderie.

    That so few of them were able to hold on to their idealism back on the home front was a tragedy, but it wasn't inevitable. Lincoln's assassination remains what of the great What-if's of American history.
     
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  9. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    :whistling::whistling::whistling:

     
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  10. russ

    russ Member+

    Feb 26, 1999
    Canton,NY
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    See!They get mad when the free market works against them .
    True Conservatives!
     
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  11. Auriaprottu

    Auriaprottu Member+

    Atlanta Damn United
    Apr 1, 2002
    The back of the bus
    Club:
    Atlanta
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    Hadn't been no slaves, wouldn't have been no need for a war. Whining because they couldn't recruit from abroad is low energy af
     
  12. taosjohn

    taosjohn Member+

    Dec 23, 2004
    taos,nm
    Sorry, but the first half of this sentence invalidates the second. Either you do or you don't. Half measures have failed again and again.
     
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  13. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This doesn’t even make sense. Pointing out that white Americans in 1865 were still racists; but that many of them had just been through a deeply disruptive event which challenged some of their deeply rooted assumptions and led many of them to at least temporarily question some of those assumptions—those are not mutually incompatible statements.
     
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  14. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #7664 bigredfutbol, Mar 20, 2023
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2023
    I mean, many Southern immigrants did fight for the CSA—there just weren’t many of them to begin with because…well.
     
  15. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I’d be willing to bet good money taosjohn knows that. ;)
     
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  16. taosjohn

    taosjohn Member+

    Dec 23, 2004
    taos,nm
    Hmm; I thought we were exploring whether the rise of Jim Crow stemmed from a resurgence of the Confederate ethos shortly after Appomattox, or from the underlying racism of the whole of white culture, even including the great majority of the abolitionists; that is, whether it was a sectional phenomenon or an across the board impulse. Temporary, revocable, equality, would seem to indicate the latter to me.
     
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  17. taosjohn

    taosjohn Member+

    Dec 23, 2004
    taos,nm
    And IIRC the General was not a General very much longer either...

    General Ferraro was in charge of the black soldiers, but he was either under the orders or the influence of General Ledlie, it is not entirely clear which, and Ledlie was the man who was, if not drunk, working towards it anyway.

    But the great failure was Burnside's-- he forgot the first rule of general assaults, which is get your own defensive obstacles out of the way beforehand. The abattis was still in the way of the troops which should have been circling the rim of the crater, keeping them instead trapped within the union lines.

    Burnside was sent on furlough for the rest of his life, Ledlie went with him for reasons also unknown, and we hear no more about him. What happened to Ferraro I have never heard, but I suspect his future commands included kitchens and stables and latrine fields...

    Well, no-- I just looked him up-- he seems to have escaped the blame, was kicked upstairs in December (the rest of his war record was both active and good) and mustered out in August of '65. "After the war, he went on to be one of the leading dance instructors and ballroom operators in America." (Wikipedia)
     
  18. russ

    russ Member+

    Feb 26, 1999
    Canton,NY
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Ferrero moved his men forward as ordered.Ledlie should have held them back,since the Confederate line was restored and there was no more chance of a breakthrough,but he was drunk off his ass.

    And what to say about poor old Burn?He gets his chance at redemption for all his other fcvkups (soooo many fcvkups), successfully blows up the trench system,and then screws up the assault.Part of it was the Union troops were shocked by success of the blast and were more gawkers than attackers for some critical minutes.But ,not for the first time,they were appallingly led.
     
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  19. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Here's a story about the persistence of institutional racism in a sundown town.

    The kicker is this: the reason local law enforcement gave for not considering the racist graffiti and whatnot to be a hate crime is that the white neighbor was always displaying white supremacist messages. Which, apparently, makes it OK.

    When asked about recourse for the attack, McDaniel said the incident happened before he started at the office. However, he said according to the report filed by the deputies, there is no indication it was a targeted attack because the neighbor always had white supremacy signs displayed.

    “It wasn’t like he put it there overnight,” McDaniel said from the information available in the report from that day. “It’s nothing like that. So those items were not just put there after the buses were put there.”


    You can hear the sneering through your screen.
     
  20. Auriaprottu

    Auriaprottu Member+

    Atlanta Damn United
    Apr 1, 2002
    The back of the bus
    Club:
    Atlanta
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    Not surprised. This level of conservatism never really stopped in states like AR, MS, NC, SC, GA, TN and AL. Pretty sure some still in the metro NYC areaThere are a few in my state, too. The sort of places where nobody wants to live if they have even a little talent.

    I was born in Greensboro, and I remember my folks telling stories about where they could eat, sleep, use the restroom, etc. Less than 100 years ago.
     
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  21. Q*bert Jones III

    Q*bert Jones III The People's Poet

    Feb 12, 2005
    Woodstock, NY
    Club:
    DC United
    No.
     
  22. Cascarino's Pizzeria

    Apr 29, 2001
    New Jersey, USA
    Oh interesting. Which ones?
     
  23. soccernutter

    soccernutter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Tottenham Hotspur
    Aug 22, 2001
    Near the mountains.
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    See, dave, when it comes to the civil war, your position is absolutist - what you say/opine is the only position. But you should read the conversation between taos and bigred, who are discussing and disagreeing and recognizing that each has a legit argument.

    But, IIRC, both have taught in a classroom, so it necessitates that type of conversation.
     
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  24. Auriaprottu

    Auriaprottu Member+

    Atlanta Damn United
    Apr 1, 2002
    The back of the bus
    Club:
    Atlanta
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    Places Black folks ain't welcome. You saw Jungle Fever... where Pwaulie lived.
     
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  25. Auriaprottu

    Auriaprottu Member+

    Atlanta Damn United
    Apr 1, 2002
    The back of the bus
    Club:
    Atlanta
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    @Cascarino's Pizzeria it shouldn't be interesting to you. You live there. You're supposed to already know.
     

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