First my version of pro/rel would be under the MLS umbrella. So clubs would still have to meet minimum standards and pay an expansion fee (or put up some financial guarantees) to enter MLS 2. Also if the three letters MLS are so powerful for casual they also still get to use them. In terms of "their are only a few promotable cities that could get MLS attendance" I reject that completely and totally out of hand. First every time MLS expands they improve attendance. There are 56 MSAs with over a million people in the US we have plenty of markets. If anything MLS seems to do best in growing medium sized markets. But hey maybe you're right maybe Americans are just to fair weather to handle pro/rel.
I guess this is where we just agree to disagree. I don't think relegation would make them "disappear". Yes they would get less exposure compared to doing well in the current format but we are in a world where traditional media has less influence then ever (not saying no influence of course). I am not sure how different the exposure would be for a club winning and playing well in MLS2 going for promotion versus a team near the bottom of the table in our current format. Maybe these are the markets MLS should be focused on. Or let's just spitball here, maybe MLS shouldn't be focusing on any markets (it's history of "choosing" markets is mixed at best) instead just focus on running and promoting the competition as a whole and let the clubs themselves determine where they are based on how they do.
The certainty of relegation with a consequence for at least the following season versus being one of 18 teams with a chance of winning the playoffs in MLS this season... yeah, definitely "the same thing".
Ever since I remember they've been a team that puts style before resiliency and emphasised attack over defense. George Graham tried to change that and it was a disaster.
Yep that's me I support a team in England, well barely the whole scouse English thing is complicated, who haven't been relegated since the 1950's and are suffering a "terrible" season because they might finish 7th. So guess I am a Eurosnob. You are right I don't really follow MLS. I watch the odd match here or there and try and watch the final unless it's up against the NFL or College Football which it almost always is. But I do support my local team. I am a season ticket holder with the San Diego Loyal. Actually the only reason I am on here is to kill time before I head to the bar for some pre match beers before hopefully watching the Loyal beat Phoenix. I was brought up a SAN DIEGO (F*** LA) Chargers and Padre fan. So yeah I guess I missed the memo that I only support winners because neither of those teams are seen as traditional winners. But I do support my local team in a domestic league. Just not MLS. So am I a Eurosnob or a supporter of my local? BTW been to any RGV Toros games lately? Keep coming back to the same conclusion. I think pro/rel will work because I have faith that enough American fans aren't fair weather and want to be supporters rather than consumers. But maybe you guys are right. Maybe American fans just want entertainment and don't seek anything deeper.
You keep saying "you think Pro/Rel will work" but nothing proves it will. As I've said in another post MLS is already the top division, no need to "promote", yet several teams have an attendance problem. MLS and other domestic leagues as a whole have attendance and viewership problems and Pro/Rel won't fix anything you guys think it will. Even USMNT has an attendance problem that's why they play in small MLS stadiums while Mexico, El Salvador or other NT can fill up NFL stadiums no problem. This goes deeper than just thinking Pro/Rel will engage fans and make domestic soccer great.
Which markets has MLS chosen wrong? The teams struggling with attendance and other "business metrics" tend to be the original/legacy teams. Sacramento was a poor choice in the end, and it never came to be, but not because it's a bad market. MLS didn't vet Sac Republic's USL Owners enough it turns out, and neither did Burkle. Chivas didn't fail because LA was not capable of supporting more than one team. Chivas failed because MLS didn't vet. their ownership group well enough. One could make an argument for Orlando being the wrong choice, but they haven't necessarily failed either. They had some messiness between the original owners which has hurt them. Sugarman finally got the right people in charge of Philadelphia, and they're a huge success. MLS finally found the right ownership group for St. Louis. Most will agree that HOW Austin FC came to be was dubious, however, we can't argue that Austin FC was in fact a mistake. When it comes to expansion, MLS has a better track record than the NHL, NBA, and MLB.
There aren't that many markets like that... and MLS is already in most of them, having already tended to pursue those markets as an expansion strategy. Many of the mid-sized cities without MLS are in fact overserved by big-league sports, with multiple teams in place because the teams predate big westward population shifts.
Let's agree to disagree. Here's some 2022 college football average attendances (source): 1. Michigan - 110,246 10. Florida- 87,180 20. Michigan State - 69,047 30. Purdue - 57,129 40. North Carolina - 47,933 50. Illinois - 43,048 60. Cincinnati - 38,451 70. San Diego State - 29,255 80. Troy - 25,661 90. Tulane - 21,581 100. Jacksonville State - 18,161 110. Central Michigan - 15,823 120. Nevada - 14,905 130. UMass - 10,800
You're comparing something that started in 1995 to someone that started over a century ago. English fans followed their teams in whatever division because they had no choice and the identification with a club built up over generations. It wasn't really until the 1960s until fans started traveling en masse. Also English fans are stubborn and somewhat masochistic. The same goes for a lot of north Europeans. Compare other leagues around the world where attendances drop like a stone when teams get relegated. American fans have up to 4 major league plus college and high school teams to watch as an alternative to MLS, plus 100s of games a week on TV.
But lower division soccer in the US (and Europe) is more like college in the US than minor leagues. Minor league teams' first priority is not winning, it's to prepare players for the majors. Fans aren't stupid they know this. Even within lower division US soccer we see the difference. Reserve MLS sides in USL saw a fraction of the attendance of the independent clubs. There's a difference between "Lower League" and "Minor League" and I do think US fans are savy enough to understand the difference.
It's worked in the rest of the world. And lower division soccer in the us continues to improve and grow without pro/rel as the best markets are poached by MLS. Didn't mean to just say markets, meant to include ownership groups with it as well. And I actually believe that almost any market in the top fifty could support a club if the ownership and the organization are right. But obviously the low hanging fruit are the three that had to fold. While I think MLS should get credit for making it to 2005 I also believe a lot of the issues were self inflicted. I don't think either Red Bull or NYCFC have done a wonderful job of capturing New York. San Jose, Colorado not great, and still not sold on Miami. I agree that MLS appears to be doing well on recent expansions but I always wonder how much is MLS growing the game and how much is it MLS riding the coattails of soccer's overall growth as a spectator sport? If your concern is getting enough fans in the stadium then I think the US has plenty of unfilled markets. if it's having enough billionaires wanting to pay 500million + then we might be running out.
The "rest of the world" started way before MLS and they were successful in the first try. Domestic soccer in the US was tried before, still coming in late into the scene, and it failed because it wasn't popular as baseball, basketball and football. This is something you fail to see. Plus add that a country like England, which everyone tries to use as an example, doesn't have any other major sports. Soccer is their main sport by far! EPL doesn't compete against any other major sport there. England invented the game after all and have had over 100 years with it as their main source of entertainment. We invented what? Football, basketball and baseball? Guess which are our main most successful sports?
I thought baseball was 'invented' in the UK? You say there is 'no other major sports'!!? Haven't you heard of cricket, rugby, Formula 1 etc? Cricket has been a major sport here long before the rules of football or rugby were even written! You probably don't realise how 'big' cricket and rugby are here because unlike football these sports don't register in the US at all. For cricket think baseball, for rugby think......I don't know, hockey perhaps.
I recently drove across country with my son. We talked a myriad of things. One thing he asked was coolest/memorable sporting events I've been to. I mentioned 3 or 4 football games (NFC Championships and Rose Bowls) a hockey game (my towns minor league since folded championship clincher) and an indoor soccer game. He asked what about the MLS championship game. I said it was cool but didn't register like the others. He says it's because when the MLS Sounders started I was well into adulthood. Which made some sense. I root for the Kraken but don't really care that much. If they won the Stanley Cup it would be cool but it wouldn't register as much. If the Mariners win a world series there may be a tear deep inside. His contention was that the Sounders are going to be a bigger deal in the hearts and minds of kids age in 20 years because they will have always been part of their sporting landscape. For me I'm a Mariner Seahawk guy at my core. He will have them and the Sounders and to a lesser extent the Kraken. I understand the Sounders were around for years but they were always in and out especially after NASL folded.
You’ve been beaten down by the corporates! You should demand to host a meaningful game against LAFC! Excuse my crudeness, but Eurosnobs are often like people who get too into porn and give up on meeting real people. Sure San Antonio or the Colorado Rapids are not as good as Euro soccer teams; but the real thing live, in stadium, away from a screen is better.
There are people who have identified with the PNW teams since NASL and their kids and grandkids have the opportunity to watch a team with the same name and it seems to show, not just by the number of supporters but by their fervency. My friend's step daughter has an annual sports team day at school in New York every year and she was the only one that wore a MLS jersey and she got teased. Thankfully she wore it again the following year. I suspect it's normal for kids in Seattle or Portland to wear MLS jerseys around the city. It's a shame about Vancouver.
I thought this didn't happen in American soccer. We had some coverage of the protest last night. Full clip below: 🎥: @futboliandotv https://t.co/hoi0YnY4Qd pic.twitter.com/AtQ7SwEm5Y— Jose Duran (@joseduransports) March 19, 2023
Don't those fans know about the draft picks they'll be getting? They should be celebrating as we speak.
You right, I don't know. I just go by what I see which soccer is the most popular sport by far in England. Is Formula 1 really considered a sport now? Should we call No Prep Racing, 10.5 Outlaws, Top Fuel, Funny cars, Bracket Racing, etc a sport because we see it on TV? A lot of people participate on it but of course you need money to compete, lots of money. I don't know, IMO, Formula 1 or anything similar shouldn't be considered a sport like say hockey, baseball etc.
To sum up the lunacy in one tweet. If luton finish 4th & get promoted, have one season in the prem & finish bottom , we can pay for building the new ground. if we don't go up and finish 3rd next year, we stay at Kenilworth Rd— Brian Hodgson (@BrianHodgson3) March 21, 2023 More proof that the English pyramid is broken. Not because of P/R, but P/R isn't solving the issue either.