Ukraine v Russia II

The Jitty Slitter · Mar 20, 2023

argentine soccer fan said: ↑

You are right, I think other people may be using other definitions than I am. But I also think I did explain what I meant rather clearly, so some who are putting objections based on different definitions either did not catch my subsequent posts or are being disingenuous.

I agree to some extent that in the US centrists are not necessarily moderate as I define it. Romney in most places (for sure in Argentina) would be consider right wing, but at least he is the kind of right wing who's willing to engage in the politics of compromise, and I give him credit for that. Manchin is more difficult to define. He is for the most part a relative moderate, even by Argentine standards, and somebody who will engage both sides, but on a few very important issues he is absolutely inflexible. I thought he did a remarkable job in saving Biden's spending bill while keeping it from becoming too big for what I consider economically optimal. On the other hand, his intransigence on environmental issues bothers me seriously, as it's obvious that he is beholden to the coal industry and similar special interest groups that seem to not give a errr, a fig, about the future of humankind.
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I was just confused by your terminology as in the US context centrist means someone who intentionally positions between the two parties. So I wondered if you were arguing that US policy on Ukraine ought to be 'centrist'.

Given Trump/RDS/MTG are essentially adopting the Kremlin view - i don't think centrist offers much of value here.

The Jitty Slitter · Mar 20, 2023

argentine soccer fan said: ↑

To me the positions of Mexico or Brazil or Argentina is not centrist or moderate, anymore than Switzerland's neutrality between the allies and the Nazis was centrist or moderate. In this case the idea that Ukraine, or NATO, or the "US policies towards the global South" or anybody other than Putin's Russia is in some way partly responsible for Russia's heinous acts is an extremist view.
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Agreed.

I think we are on the same page that Biden and the coalition are choosing between a variety of policy options that are within the mainstream of coherent policy views - even if the choices are difficult

My problem with the likes of Die Linke who try to position as the 'serious tankies' is there is a lack of reality as to how european leaders actually make Putin stop his offensive, short of surrender.

So I don't see that stuff as serious or 'centrist'

Brilliant Oranje · Mar 20, 2023

Xi visits Russia:

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/live...-live-putin-xi-meeting-to-discuss-ukraine-war

More here: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-64990826

Brilliant Oranje · Mar 20, 2023

Zeihan claims by May of this year we'll get a better picture of who's gonna win this war.
I dont know how legit this guy is, I'm just posting it for reference

Belgian guy · Mar 20, 2023

I can't stop laughing https://t.co/B1tVRXePvw
— Julia Ioffe (@juliaioffe) March 19, 2023

I'm sure that'd go splendidly for them (even if you forget the fact that they are a NATO member).

The Jitty Slitter · Mar 20, 2023

pic.twitter.com/ZEycmuFHrE
— Josh Marshall (@joshtpm) March 20, 2023

The Jitty Slitter · Mar 20, 2023

Preparation for Trump Tuesday?

Steel barricades arriving outside Manhattan Criminal Court @CBSNews pic.twitter.com/aWESUZ01fU
— Robert Costa (@costareports) March 20, 2023

argentine soccer fan · Mar 20, 2023

The Jitty Slitter said: ↑

I was just confused by your terminology as in the US context centrist means someone who intentionally positions between the two parties. So I wondered if you were arguing that US policy on Ukraine ought to be 'centrist'.

Given Trump/RDS/MTG are essentially adopting the Kremlin view - i don't think centrist offers much of value here.
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Not necessarily in between. In general I would call a moderate/centrist a politician who doesn’t go too far in either direction in terms of what’s the basic role of the government. Not too big a role, but also not too small. They may lean bigger or smaller, but only up to a reasonable point, and also understanding that there are exceptions, times to either take a bigger role, or to reduce the role.

The centrist also will in general support his own party (otherwise he should change parties) but is willing to consider the possibility that sometimes his own party could be making a mistake, and sometimes the other party may have a point. Maybe our party is going too far in blocking the judges that the president nominates, or maybe our spending bill goes too far in spending on too many programs, or maybe the president’s position on a war is the right one, and we should support it even if doing so helps him politically.

And sometimes the politics of compromise means a give and take in which my centrist candidate realizes that based on political realities and for the good of the country he has to accept something that he does not agree with, whether it’s a tax cut or a tax increase, or a spending cut or a spending increase, sometimes even having to accept having to bend a bit on something that goes against what he promised and got him elected, for the sake of compromise, but obviously without going too far, and while remaining true to his principles.

And finally a centrist is always on the side of protecting the democratic institutions, and against undermining them for ideological reasons, and will stand up to the extremists in his own party, and even to the leadership of his own party, if they do.

Those are the type of candidates I'm looking for. They are the ones who make a democratic system work. And there are too few of those left.

song219 · Mar 20, 2023

Yoshou said: ↑

Quick question… Macron seems to have really stepped in it with his forcing through the pension reforms… is there another pro-Ukraine leader in France? Le Pen and all of the Leftist candidates from the recent election we definitely on the pro-Putin side of the war..
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He may have to accept a new prime minister but he is safe.

rslfanboy · Mar 20, 2023

argentine soccer fan said: ↑

Not necessarily in between. In general I would call a moderate/centrist a politician who doesn’t go too far in either direction in terms of what’s the basic role of the government. Not too big a role, but also not too small. They may lean bigger or smaller, but only up to a reasonable point, and also understanding that there are exceptions, times to either take a bigger role, or to reduce the role.

The centrist also is willing to consider the possibility that sometimes his own party could be making a mistake, and sometimes the other party may have a point. Maybe our party is going too far in blocking the judges that the president nominates, or maybe our spending bill goes too far in spending on too many programs, or maybe the president’s position on a war is the right one, and we should support it even if doing so helps him politically.

And sometimes the politics of compromise means a give and take in which my centrist candidate realizes that based on political realities and for the good of the country he has to accept something that he does not agree with, whether it’s a tax cut or a tax increase, or a spending cut or a spending increase, sometimes even having to accept having to bend a bit on something that goes against what he promised and got him elected, for the sake of compromise, but obviously without going too far, and while remaining true to his principles.

And finally a centrist is always on the side of protecting the democratic institutions, and against undermining them for ideological reasons, and will stand up to the extremists in his own party, and even to the leadership of his own party, if they do.

Those are the type of candidates I'm looking for.
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In this context, along with other of your clarifying posts, I don’t take much issue with your statement. I’m just getting overly tired and frustrated with hearing about the sanctity of the “middle ground” in light of the current political reality. It’s do or die for democracy here, and across the world, right now.

I’m here for a “both sides” when the sides are pro or anti democratic, regardless of the side of the political spectrum. In the US context, it is clear where that line is drawn. The anti-democratic factions on the left don’t hold any of the levers of power, so nitpicking about it is a distraction and counter productive.

So yeah, there are weirdo lefties calling for the US to withdraw from UKR and cease funding, but those people are not party leaders and potential POTUS, unlike our dear GOP friends. The weirdos should be ignored & deplatformed, not brought into the discussion to provide “balance.”

feyenoordsoccerfan · Mar 20, 2023

Medvedev calls for hypersonic missile on the ICC in the Hague:
Russia's former president suggested firing a hypersonic missile at The Hague after Putin's ICC arrest warrant: 'Look carefully into the sky'
Business Insider on MSN.com|33 minutes ago
Dmitry Medvedev said NATO wouldn't retaliate even if Russia bombed the International Criminal Court following its arrest warrant for Putin.

The insanity of letting these people believe they're justified in their criminal military adventures over the past two decades without consequences breeds this kind of imbecility and it's unfectious as we see the same imbecility in the USA politicians and their arse licking European right wingers.

The Irish Rover · Mar 20, 2023

feyenoordsoccerfan said: ↑

Medvedev calls for hypersonic missile on the ICC in the Hague:
Russia's former president suggested firing a hypersonic missile at The Hague after Putin's ICC arrest warrant: 'Look carefully into the sky'
Business Insider on MSN.com|33 minutes ago
Dmitry Medvedev said NATO wouldn't retaliate even if Russia bombed the International Criminal Court following its arrest warrant for Putin.

The insanity of letting these people believe they're justified in their criminal military adventures over the past two decades without consequences breeds this kind of imbecility and it's unfectious as we see the same imbecility in the USA politicians and their arse licking European right wingers.
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What Medvedev needs is for the Betty Ford clinic to start issuing warrants.

Hell, Putin might even hand him over - for Medvedev's sake.

waitforit · Mar 20, 2023

argentine soccer fan said: ↑

Is that centrist to you?
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I read all your other posts but I am simply going to quote this

I agree with your centrist views but those are not the "centrist" views I hate.

For me a centrist is Russia has 20% of Ukraine so lets split the difference Ukraine gets to keep half of Russia gained. Those people I hate.

As for your other examples some things are legal or not. Defining legality does not make it something centrist.

Yoshou said: ↑

Lol. No. They are pro-Putin.
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What do you mean?

You mean the lady who had her shaking hands with Putin on campaign leaflets is pro Putin

Get outta here!!!

feyenoordsoccerfan · Mar 20, 2023

Why do sane people call this kind of imbecility an ominous warning? Do they think it's a real option on the table?
Newsweek on MSN.com|6 hours ago
Former Russian President Dmitry Medvedev issued an ominous warning on Monday, suggesting that Russia could strike the International Criminal Court (ICC) with a hypersonic missile in response to its decision to issue an arrest warrant for President Vladimir Putin.

song219 · Mar 20, 2023

feyenoordsoccerfan said: ↑

Why do sane people call this kind of imbecility an ominous warning? Do they think it's a real option on the table?
Newsweek on MSN.com|6 hours ago
Former Russian President Dmitry Medvedev issued an ominous warning on Monday, suggesting that Russia could strike the International Criminal Court (ICC) with a hypersonic missile in response to its decision to issue an arrest warrant for President Vladimir Putin.
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Journalism is all about the clicks.

rslfanboy · Mar 20, 2023

song219 said: ↑

Journalism is all about the clicks.
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Also, these crazy things being said are for local consumption, not international. They are projecting (poser-style) power to make Russians citizens feel like they, under Putin, are still a prominent world power. These words aren't for anyone outside Russia and Belarus to take seriously, and they know that.

russ · Mar 20, 2023

feyenoordsoccerfan said: ↑

Why do sane people call this kind of imbecility an ominous warning? Do they think it's a real option on the table?
Newsweek on MSN.com|6 hours ago
Former Russian President Dmitry Medvedev issued an ominous warning on Monday, suggesting that Russia could strike the International Criminal Court (ICC) with a hypersonic missile in response to its decision to issue an arrest warrant for President Vladimir Putin.
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It's Newsweek.

argentine soccer fan · Mar 20, 2023

rslfanboy said: ↑

In this context, along with other of your clarifying posts, I don’t take much issue with your statement. I’m just getting overly tired and frustrated with hearing about the sanctity of the “middle ground” in light of the current political reality. It’s do or die for democracy here, and across the world, right now.

I’m here for a “both sides” when the sides are pro or anti democratic, regardless of the side of the political spectrum. In the US context, it is clear where that line is drawn. The anti-democratic factions on the left don’t hold any of the levers of power, so nitpicking about it is a distraction and counter productive.

So yeah, there are weirdo lefties calling for the US to withdraw from UKR and cease funding, but those people are not party leaders and potential POTUS, unlike our dear GOP friends. The weirdos should be ignored & deplatformed, not brought into the discussion to provide “balance.”
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I was not talking exclusively about the US. Most of those “weirdos” are in other countries.

feyenoordsoccerfan · Mar 20, 2023

https://www.theguardian.com › law › 2023 › mar › 20 › icc-russian-war-crimes-ukraine-international-criminal-court-karim-khan?ref=upstract.com
ICC to plead for extra money to pursue Russian war crimes in Ukraine ...
VandaagA conference in Lviv on 3 March changed the terms of reference of a seven-nation joint Ukraine war crimes investigation team to provide a future role for a new international centre for the ...

ceezmad · Mar 20, 2023

Looks like Macron's PM survives.

President Emmanuel Macron's government narrowly survived a no confidence motion in the National Assembly on Monday, after bypassing the lower house to push through a deeply unpopular change to the pension system.

Some 278 MPs voted in favor of a tripartisan, no confidence motion tabled by a centrist party and others, just nine short of the 287 needed for it to succeed.
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https://www.yahoo.com/news/opposition-mps-walk-french-pm-183812015.html

France really needs the reforms, that is why Macron is risking so much politically.

luftmensch · Mar 20, 2023

The Jitty Slitter said: ↑

Preparation for Trump Tuesday?

Steel barricades arriving outside Manhattan Criminal Court @CBSNews pic.twitter.com/aWESUZ01fU
— Robert Costa (@costareports) March 20, 2023

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Barricades are a good idea, but given what I’ve seen of how New Yorkers treat the Proud Boys and their ilk I think there may be substantial human barricades as well. Hope it doesn’t get too ugly.

feyenoordsoccerfan · Mar 20, 2023

luftmensch said: ↑

Barricades are a good idea, but given what I’ve seen of how New Yorkers treat the Proud Boys and their ilk I think there may be substantial human barricades as well. Hope it doesn’t get too ugly.
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If they put those steel barriers hooked on the spark plugs, everything should be fine....with an occasionally whiff of roasted meat....

feyenoordsoccerfan · Mar 20, 2023

usscouse said: ↑

Wasn’t keeping track my posting. I thought I was still on the Spurs match.
Spurs 1- Liverpool 2.

I wondered where that post went.
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Ask Conte

🗣️ 'Until now, I tried to hide the situation...'

'It is 20 years with the owner and they have never won something. That is the story of Tottenham'

Antonio Conte's press conferences are box office 🍿#TelegraphFootball | #THFC pic.twitter.com/1aUTTAp55i
— Telegraph Football (@TeleFootball) March 20, 2023

Boandlkramer · Mar 20, 2023

The Jitty Slitter said: ↑

Preparation for Trump Tuesday?

Steel barricades arriving outside Manhattan Criminal Court @CBSNews pic.twitter.com/aWESUZ01fU
— Robert Costa (@costareports) March 20, 2023

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They better have snipers and Submachine guns

superdave · Mar 20, 2023

I don’t want sub machine guns.

I want dom machine guns!!!!