Is Luka Modric the greatest midfielder of the 21st century?

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by SayWhatIWant, Feb 4, 2023.

  1. lessthanjake

    lessthanjake Member+

    May 9, 2015
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    I think this is a key point.

    And, honestly, to talk about this more generally, I don’t really think any of these players could do what the other player did. We are talking about all-time great players, who were all-time greats because of how great they were at the exact thing they did. I don’t really think any of these players quite have the ability to play like the other and be as good at it, because these players are almost certainly not really all-time greats at the others’ specific skill set.

    To take one apt example, I’ll talk about Zidane and Xavi:

    At his best, Xavi played in a slow-tempo, possession-based system with a high defensive line. This system requires midfielders to be extremely mistake-free and to press a ton, because the defensive line is so high that losing the ball in the midfield can very easily be disastrous. It also required Xavi to have an extremely high work rate on offense, to constantly provide a passing outlet for teammates (because if teammates have nowhere to go with the ball, then they are more likely to lose the ball in midfield and trigger a disastrous counter-attack). I don’t think that Zidane could’ve done this nearly as well as Xavi. He was a great player, of course, but he always tended to give away possession cheaply a few times a game, and he did not have the work rate to constantly press on defense and to consistently provide passing outlets on attack. Maybe in a tiki-taka system, he could at least cut down a bit on giving away possession cheaply, but I’ve seen enough errant simple one-touch passes, and getting dispossessed right after receiving the ball to think that he couldn’t do this nearly like Xavi.

    On the other hand, I think it’s also true that Xavi couldn’t do what Zidane did as well. When Zidane got the ball, he tended to try to invite pressure in order to try to get out of it, presumably to help create space for teammates. Xavi tended to try to evade pressure very quickly, through one-touch passing and pirouettes. Xavi was very good at that, but I don’t think he could successfully hold up the ball and invite pressure the way Zidane did, because Xavi simply didn’t have the physicality to do that as well as Zidane. Relatedly, Xavi didn’t have the ability to dribble forward at pace as well as Zidane did. He could’ve tried to adjust, but I think there’s good reason to believe he could not have done this stuff nearly like Zidane.

    The same could be said about any combination of these players being discussed. They all had different roles, and those roles reflected their differing skill sets, so I don’t think any of them had the skill set to be as good at the others’ roles.

    Ultimately, then, these are inherently apples-to-oranges comparisons, and the inquiry is probably best understood as asking which player is best at their specific role. I think the answer is Xavi and of course plenty of others would answer with different players. There’s admittedly no objective answer, though, since we genuinely aren’t talking about a situation where one player is as good or better than the others in all ways.
     
  2. PrimoCalcio

    PrimoCalcio Member

    Milan/Napoli
    Italy
    Oct 14, 2019
    #102 PrimoCalcio, Feb 28, 2023
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2023
    I had some fun with stats comparing Modric, Xavi, and Pirlo. Not making a case a for anything, just thought this might be cool for others to look at.

    Note: I manually removed match/competition ratings and statistics from Pirlo’s time in MLS and Xavi’s time in Qatar. I consider this semi-retirement for both players and am only interested in their top-level European careers. For example, you may see that Pirlo’s overall average rating on WhoScored is 7.32, but because I manually removed his MLS ratings, the rating increased.

    WhoScored ratings only cover from 09/10 onwards, so this obviously encapsulates only the latter portion of Xavi's and Pirlo's careers, while including virtually all of Modric's top-level career. WS ratings, then, only show part of the picture.

    WS = WhoScored*
    TM = Transfrmarket*

    WS MOTM %
    Pirlo 0.1140 = 11.40%
    Modric 0.0561 = 5.61%
    Xavi 0.0422 = 4.20%

    WS UCL Ratings Average
    Xavi 7.22
    Modric 7.11
    Pirlo 7.07

    WS League Ratings Average
    Pirlo 7.49
    Xavi 7.34
    Modric 7.22

    Overall WS Ratings Average
    Pirlo 7.43
    Xavi 7.32
    Modric 7.21

    Highest Average WS Rating over a League Season
    Pirlo 7.88 (11/12)
    Xavi 7.67 (09/10)
    Modric 7.59 (11/12)

    Lowest Average WS Rating over a League Season
    Modric 7.01 (19/20, 21/22)
    Xavi 7.06 (13/14), Pirlo 7.06 (10/11)

    Highest Average WS Rating over a UCL Campaign
    Xavi 7.90 (09/10, 10 games)
    Modric 7.79 (13/14, 11 games)
    Pirlo 7.51 (12/13, 10 games)

    Lowest Average WS Rating over a UCL Campaign
    Modric 6.46 (19/20, 6 games)
    Xavi 6.48 (14/15, 10 games)
    Pirlo 6.86 (14/15, 10 games)

    Key Passes per game
    Pirlo 2.4
    Xavi 2.2
    Modric 1.5

    Key Passes per 90
    Pirlo 2.8
    Xavi 2.7
    Modric 1.5

    Long Key Passes per 90
    Pirlo 1.1
    Xavi 0.8
    Modric 0.4

    Short Key Passes per 90
    Xavi 1.9
    Pirlo 1.4
    Modric 1.2

    Goals from Outside the Box per game + conversion %
    Pirlo 0.092 (1.509 shots = 6.11% conversion), 21 Total
    Modric 0.044 (0.758 shots = 5.79% conversion), 25 Total
    Xavi 0.034 (0.854 shots = 4.04% conversion), 9 Total

    Assists per game (WhoScored)
    Xavi 0.2337
    Pirlo 0.1930
    Modric 0.1439

    Passes per 90
    Xavi 110.9
    Pirlo 74.7
    Modric 67.9

    Pass Completion %
    Xavi 93.1%
    Modric 88.9%
    Pirlo 86.8%

    Direct Freekicks, whole careers
    Pirlo 44
    Xavi 12
    Modric 3

    *All stats taken from Transfermarket this point forward:

    Assists per game (TransferMarket definition, whole careers)
    Xavi 0.2322
    Pirlo 0.1833
    Modric 0.1593

    Goals per game, whole careers (not including second division or Croatian league)
    Xavi 0.1078
    Pirlo 0.1050
    Modric 0.0989

    NT Goals per game
    Modric 0.1421
    Pirlo 0.1122
    Xavi 0.0900

    NT Assists per game
    Pirlo 0.2155
    Xavi 0.1880
    Modric 0.1543

    NT goals per competitive game
    Modric 0.1695
    Pirlo 0.1316
    Xavi 0.0854

    NT Assists per competitive game
    Pirlo 0.3026
    Xavi 0.1829
    Modric 0.1271

    NT G+A per game
    Pirlo 0.3276
    Modric 0.2962
    Xavi 0.2782

    NT G+A per competitive game
    Pirlo 0.4342
    Modric 0.3136
    Xavi 0.2683

    NT G+A per major tournament game (WC & Euro)
    Pirlo 0.3636
    Xavi 0.3077
    Modric 0.2500

    NT G+A per major tournament game including Confederations Cup
    Pirlo 0.3929
    Modric 0.2500
    Xavi 0.2352
     
    Danko, PDG1978 and lessthanjake repped this.
  3. lessthanjake

    lessthanjake Member+

    May 9, 2015
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Very interesting post! Pirlo’s assists per game for Italy is more impressive than I realized, actually.

    One quick thing I’d note is that I think the NT goals per game of the three would all be essentially equal if you only looked at non-penalty goals. By my count, I think Pirlo would be at 0.0862 non-penalty goals per NT match, Modric would be at 0.0926, and Xavi would be at 0.0902. Which, of course, are all essentially the exact same. Not sure how that would shake out in the more narrow categories of competitive games and major tournament games—haven’t calculated those. Of course, being the penalty-taker is of value, so we shouldn’t just totally zero it out and forget about penalty goals, but just wanted to note that penalties seem to be doing pretty much all the work there in differentiating between those players in NT goals per game.
     
  4. PrimoCalcio

    PrimoCalcio Member

    Milan/Napoli
    Italy
    Oct 14, 2019
    #104 PrimoCalcio, Feb 28, 2023
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2023
    Yeah, the NT goals per game is very close and there's not that much in it. I'm not sure about the others but I know Pirlo hasn't taken/scored a PK in a major NT tournament (outside of shootouts). I might have some fun with each player and WC stats later.

    I've also noticed that Kroos has really impressive WhoScored stats and I am now retroactively wishing I included him.
     
  5. PrimoCalcio

    PrimoCalcio Member

    Milan/Napoli
    Italy
    Oct 14, 2019
    So Modric actually has 8PK goals out of 23 NT goals... 35%
    Pirlo 3 PKs out of 13 NT goals... 23%
    Xavi 0 PKs out of 12 NT goals... 0%

    Modric 7 PK out of 20 competitive NT goals... 35%
    Pirlo 3 PK out of 10 competitive NT goals... 30%
    Xavi 0 PK out of 7 competitive NT goals... 0%

    Modric 2 PK out of 5 major tournament NT goals... 40%
    Pirlo 1 PK out of 4 major tournament NT goals... 25%
    Xavi... 0 PK out of 1 major tournament goals... 0%

    *Correcting myself, I somehow forgot Pirlo scored a PK vs France at Euro 2008.

    NT Goals per game - PK
    Modric 0.0926
    Xavi 0.0900
    Pirlo 0.0862

    NT Goals per competitive game - PK
    Modric 0.1017
    Pirlo 0.0921
    Xavi 0.0854

    NT Goals per major tournament game - PK
    Modric 0.0938
    Pirlo 0.0909
    Xavi 0.0385

    NT Goals per major tournament game - PK (including Confederations Cup)

    Pirlo 0.1071
    Modric 0.0938
    Xavi 0.0294
     
    lessthanjake repped this.
  6. PrimoCalcio

    PrimoCalcio Member

    Milan/Napoli
    Italy
    Oct 14, 2019
    I decided to have more fun and statistically compare the best World Cup campaigns of each of Pirlo, Xavi, Kroos, and Modric. Each have a stand out WC performance and play similar positions and roles. Its therefore a pretty good comparison.

    Each Player played started all 7 games

    Average Sofascore Rating
    Pirlo 2006 – 8.10 – (1st in team, 1st in tournament)
    Kroos 2014 – 7.84 – (1st in team, 8th in tournament)
    Xavi 2010 – 7.81 – (1st in team, 4th in tournament)
    Modric 2018 – 7.50 – (joint 1st in team, joint 17th in tournament)

    Sofascore MOTM + percentage
    Pirlo 2006 – 4 (57.1%)
    Xavi 2010 – 1 (14.3%)
    Kroos 2014 – 1 (14.3%)
    Modric 2018 – 1 (14.3%)

    Highest Sofascore Rating
    Pirlo 2006 – 9.3 vs Ghana (GS)
    Kroos 2014 – 9.3 vs Brazil (SF)

    Xavi 2010 – 8.7 vs Netherlands (F)
    Modric 2018 – 8.5 vs Russia (QF)

    Lowest Sofascore Rating
    Kroos 2014 – 7.2 vs France (QF)
    Xavi 2010 – 7.1 vs Paraguay (QF)
    Pirlo 2006 – 6.9 vs Ukraine (QF)
    Modric 2018 – 6.8 vs Nigeria (GS), England (SF)

    Sofascore Rating WC Final
    Xavi 2010 – 8.7 (MOTM)
    Pirlo 2006 – 8.3 (MOTM)
    Kroos 2014 – 7.7
    Modric 2018 – 7.3

    Goals
    Kroos 2014 – 2
    Modric 2018 – 2

    Pirlo 2006 – 1
    Xavi 2010 – 0

    Goals – PK
    Kroos 2014 – 2
    Pirlo 2006 – 1
    Modric 2014 – 1
    Xavi 2010 – 0

    Assists
    Pirlo 2006 – 3
    Kroos 2014 – 3

    Xavi 2010 – 1
    Modric 2018 – 1

    G+A
    Kroos 2014 – 5
    Pirlo 2006 – 4
    Modric 2018 – 3
    Xavi 2010 – 1

    G+A as percentage of team goals
    Pirlo 2006 – 33.3%
    Kroos 2014 – 27.8%
    Modric – 21.4%
    Xavi – 12.5%

    G+A – PK
    Kroos 2014 – 5
    Pirlo 2006 – 4
    Modric 2018 – 2
    Xavi 2010 – 1

    G+A – PK as percentage of team goals
    Pirlo 2006 – 33.3%
    Kroos 2014 – 27.8%
    Modric 2018 – 14.3%
    Xavi 2010 – 12.5%

    Key Passes per game
    Xavi 2010 – 4.3 (30 total)
    Pirlo 2006 – 3.4 (24 total)
    Modric 2018 – 2.6 (18 total)
    Kroos 2014 – 2.1 (15 total)

    Key Passes as percentage of total team key passes
    Pirlo 2006 – 30.4%
    Xavi 2010 – 29.7%
    Modric 2018 – 23.1%
    Kroos 2014 – 18.8%

    Accurate Passes per game
    Xavi 2010 – 85.6
    Kroos 2014 – 77.7
    Pirlo 2006 – 69.1
    Modric 2018 – 60.3

    Accurate Passes as a percentage of overall team completed passes

    Pirlo 2006 – 19.5%
    Kroos 2014 – 14.3%
    Modric 2018 – 13.6%
    Xavi 2010 – 10%

    Accurate Passes in Opposition Half per game
    Xavi 2010 – 58.6
    Kroos 2014 – 53.3
    Modric 2018 – 42.1
    Pirlo 2006 – 34.6

    Accurate Passes in Opposition Half as percentage of total team passes in opp. half
    Pirlo 21.9%
    Xavi 18.9%
    Modric 18.8%
    Kroos 16.9%

    Shots per game
    Modric 2018 – 1.6
    Pirlo 2006 – 1.0
    Xavi 2010 – 1.0
    Kroos 2014 – 0.7

    Successful Dribbles per game + percentage

    Modric 2018 – 2.1 (79%)
    Xavi 2010 – 1.3 (75%)
    Kroos 2014 – 0.7 (56%)
    Pirlo 2006 – 0.6 (67%)

    Dribbled Past per game
    Pirlo 2006 – 0.9
    Xavi 2010 – 0.9
    Modric 2018 – 0.9

    Kroos 2014 – 1.0

    Possession Won per game
    Modric 2018 – 0.9
    Kroos 2014 – 0.4
    Pirlo 2006 – 0.3
    Xavi 2010 – 0.1

    Possession Lost per game
    Xavi 2010 – 15.0
    Kroos 2014 – 16.1
    Modric 2018 – 17.4
    Pirlo 2006 – 18.3

    Duels Won + percentage
    Modric 2018 – 6.6 (52%)
    Pirlo 2006 – 6.1 (67%)
    Xavi 2010 – 4.9 (58%)
    Kroos 2014 – 4.7 (50%)

    Interceptions per game
    Pirlo 2006 – 1.6
    Xavi 2010 – 1.3
    Modric 2018 – 1.3
    Kroos 2014 – 0.6

    Tackles per game
    Pirlo 2006 – 3.4
    Kroos 2014 – 2.1
    Xavi 2010 – 1.4
    Modric 2018 – 1.4
     
    Isaías Silva Serafim and carlito86 repped this.
  7. PrimoCalcio

    PrimoCalcio Member

    Milan/Napoli
    Italy
    Oct 14, 2019
    Summary

    Pirlo 2006

    Rating: 8.10 (1st of team, 1st for tournament)
    SofaScore MOTM 4
    1
    Goal, 3 Assists = 4 G+A (33.3% of team total)
    Key Passes 3.4 (30.4% of team total)
    Accurate Passes 69.1 (19.5% of team total)
    Duels Won 6.1 (67% won)

    Heat map:

    upload_2023-3-1_17-19-44.png


    Xavi 2010

    Rating: 7.81 (1st in team, 4th in tournament)
    SofaScore MOTM 1
    0 Goal, 1 Assists = 1 G+A (12.5% of team total)
    Key Passes 4.3 (29.7% of team total)
    Accurate Passes 85.6 (10.0% of team total)
    Duels Won 4.9 (58% won)

    Heat map:

    upload_2023-3-1_17-20-13.png


    Kroos 2014

    Rating: 7.84 (1st in team, 8th in tournament)
    SofaScore MOTM 1
    2
    Goals, 3 Assists 5 G+A (27.8% of team total)
    Key Passes 2.1 (18.8% of team total)
    Accurate Passes 77.7 (14.3% of team total)
    Duels Won 4.7 (50% won)

    Heat map:

    upload_2023-3-1_17-20-36.png


    Modric 2018

    Rating: 7.50 (joint 1st of team, joint 17th of tournament)
    SofaScore MOTM 1
    2
    Goals, 1 Assists = 3 G+A (21.4% of team total)
    Key Passes 2.6 (23.1% of team total)
    Accurate Passes 60.3 (13.6% of team total)
    Duels Won 6.6 (52% won)

    Heat map:

    upload_2023-3-1_17-20-54.png
     
    Isaías Silva Serafim repped this.
  8. PrimoCalcio

    PrimoCalcio Member

    Milan/Napoli
    Italy
    Oct 14, 2019
    I also found this chart displaying World Cup ball progressions, though it is for all World Cup games and not specific to the ones of my analysis. Pirlo actually comes out looking favourably here!

    upload_2023-3-1_17-22-40.png
     
    Isaías Silva Serafim repped this.
  9. lessthanjake

    lessthanjake Member+

    May 9, 2015
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Good posts @PrimoCalcio. I think Pirlo’s WC 2006 performance gets underrated. If I recall correctly, there was a sense that Italy wasn’t an attacking team and was built around defensive solidity, so Cannavaro got the plaudits, but Pirlo actually was extremely good.
     
    PrimoCalcio repped this.
  10. PrimoCalcio

    PrimoCalcio Member

    Milan/Napoli
    Italy
    Oct 14, 2019
    #110 PrimoCalcio, Mar 1, 2023
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2023
    Glad to hear you like the posts and of course I agree about Pirlo 2006!

    If you look at the "percentage of team total" stats in my post, you see Pirlo tops it every time in, whether in accurate passes, accurate passes in opp. half, key passes, G+A, etc... I think this reveals how crucial Pirlo's performance was to Italy 2006. It was a team set up for defensive solidity, having only 48% possession and averaging well under 400 passes a match. Pirlo was very close to being the ONLY creative force in the team given that Totti was not at 100%. It's easy to see Totti's 3 assists and think he was playing consistently well as a creator, but that isn't true if you actually watch each game. Pirlo was tasked with being both the volume passer/tempo setter and the main chance creator, and he did so while maintaining his defensive contributions in a 442.

    I mean, he directly contributed to 1/3 of Italy's goals, virtually 1/3 of Italy's key passes, virtually 1/5 of all of Italy's completed passes, and over 1/5 of Italy completed passes in the opp. half. That is immense influence. And Pirlo, like most midfielders, his contribution isn't fully captured by stats alone.
    In short, he was really good. My opinion is he deserved the Golden Ball.

    Xavi in 2010 was incredible in terms of key passes, and by far the best on his team in that regard, and probably the best Spanish player overall too. Above Iniesta for sure and probably Villa as well. I was also surprised how well Kroos played in 2014. I have some thoughts on my analysis I may provide later.
     
    Isaías Silva Serafim repped this.
  11. Jumia boy

    Jumia boy New Member

    Man u
    France
    Apr 15, 2023
    No way! It’s Zidane easily
     
  12. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member+

    Dinamo Zagreb
    Croatia
    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    Well, if you are comparing Modrić's individual skillsets like technical abilities, passing, pressuring/defending to the best of the generation like Iniesta/Zidane, Xavi/Pirlo/Scholes, Kante/Makelele (whoever) he slightly falls short in each of those, but Modrić's greatness and uniqueness really comes down to how great he is at every of those fundamental aspects and his football IQ to combine everything into one, incredible product.

    I have never seen a central midfielder that can win you games on both ends of the pitch quite like Modrić and that can adapt to literally any system there is.

    Do you have doubts that Modrić could play tiki taka in Barcelona during Pep's or latter Enrique's era? That Modrić could make a difference in Simeone's Atletico?

    I would like to see Iniesta or even Xavi performing well for Atletico (or Conte's 2017 Chelsea) in a 2 players midfield paired with Gabi or Rodri or Partey or Koke.. impossible.

    Pirlo as well.. they dont have enough grit to do so.

    I dont think Modrić would have any problems to fit right in as he posses enough qualities to be effective in all situations on the pitch.

    This doesnt automatically mean that Modrić is better and that all aroudness is the most important aspect for a midfielder, but it means that players like Modrić, who are not obviously the top players at one particular skill, will often be overlooked compared to those that stand out as the best at that aprticular skill. Usually, people notice only those who are the best at something, like Iniesta in technical abilities, but there is value to being universally great at everything, especially when it comes to midfielders because they are, you know, in the midfield, neither attackers nor defenders.
     
  13. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member+

    Dinamo Zagreb
    Croatia
    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    Goals and assists are overrated in that sense.

    Assist becomes an assist only if player recieving the pass scores. It doesnt include plays that, for some irrelevant reason, dont happen to register on a scoresheet. Individual player can only do so much to provide opportunities to score and ultimately win the match and as such, players should be judged by their overral impact on the game. The goal is to score, but more fundamentally, it is to create opportunities to that lead to goals. And it dont mean key passes, but every dribble or a pass that puts his team (himself or teammates) in more advantegous positions on the pitch. That includes every small action like breaking lines of pressure, or offering and additional passing option by finding a pocket of space or finding a teammate on the other flank in less congested situation.

    When it comes to comparing midfielders, rudimentary stats become increasingly less important because majority of their contribution comes down to small plays that dont end up on the scoresheet.
     
  14. Al Gabiru

    Al Gabiru Member

    Jan 28, 2020
    I still find curious how Toni Kroos is above Modric every year on every stats site (fotmob, whoscored, sofascore). My eye test also prefers Modric. But it's an interesting debate about these algorithms. Not just one season, but throughout their entire career.
     
  15. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member+

    Dinamo Zagreb
    Croatia
    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    that's true. Football algorithms are presumely passing-driven and they don't take into account immeasurable nuance that Modrić brings on the table. Kroos always passes more
     
  16. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #116 carlito86, May 1, 2023
    Last edited: May 1, 2023

    Between 06-07 and 10-11 no one in Europe’s five biggest leagues managed more assists than Fàbregas’ 60 – or created more than his 466 chances. Not Messi, Xavi or Özil. He also averaged 3.5 chances created for every 90 minutes he played – better than anyone else in Europe.


    His peak wasn’t even entirely covered by stat sites like whoscored but he had a legendary rating of 8.24 in the 2009/10 PL which is far and beyond any season of KDB,Yaya Toure,Ozil or any other elite midfielder to play out their peak in the PL since 2010

    Far better then any season of hazard
    And modric in Tottenham was nowhere near this level(not even in the La Liga either if we’re being totally honest about it)

    https://www.whoscored.com/Regions/2...erStatistics/England-Premier-League-2009-2010

     
  17. Al Gabiru

    Al Gabiru Member

    Jan 28, 2020
    I remember those stats. Fabregas was seen as a promising player at Arsenal, just as Bellingham is today at Dortmund. He always came up with some crazy statistics, but Arsenal won nothing.

    Then he went to Barcelona, I think he was sacrificed by the system, sometimes they put him as a false nine. But he didn't repeat his performance, he was just a useful player at Barcelona. I still think Fabregas could have been bigger if he had chosen another team. He wouldn't play in his natural position with Busquets, Xavi and Iniesta. On his return to Chelsea, he was instrumental in Conte's title, playing alongside Matic, not like he played in barcelona

    He has one of the best through balls of his generation, but he lacked the versatility to play other roles.

    In another team, he would have very good numbers and would be more remembered, but he would win fewer titles. It was his professional choice
     
  18. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Arsenal
    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    I think the crazy part as well was he was feeding the likes of Adebayor and Bendtner. Eduardo was never the same after his horrific injury and RvP took too long to develop into a great striker because he would be fit 4 weeks at a time. Walcott was a little under-rated though as an outlet.
     
  19. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Arsenal
    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Not even Pele could've won much with the Banter Era Arsenal :oops:

    If anything, he would've won many more titles if he never left Barcelona. Would've been part of the dominant Pep side where he would've been moulded into a player to fit into their system rather than an EPL-player being fitted into a Pep system.

    His loyalty also hurt him later. He was always a little too set on a destination. Forced his way out of Arsenal to ONLY go to Barcelona and no one else. Afterwards, he even tried to come back to Arsenal :laugh:

    I loved him dearly and holds him in much higher regards than the many Arsenal fans who consider him a traitor. I'm glad he finally won his EPL with Chelsea.

    Still, I wished he never left us. :cry:

    Genuinely believe that once Ronaldo left, we were a full season of fit Cesc/RvP away from actually winning the league.
     
  20. AgentOfR9

    AgentOfR9 Member

    Real Madrid
    Argentina
    Jul 21, 2021
    Yes for me it is not possible to make a direct comparison between these players because everyone role is different.

    iniesta is more of a mezzala, Zidane is a trequartista and Xavi/Kroos are registas. I’d say Modric is a hybrid between a mezzala and a regista so he’s unique.

    I’d say that Zidane is always first and Riquelme because they could run the midfield all by themselves behind 2 destroyers.
     
  21. Isaías Silva Serafim

    Real Madrid
    Brazil
    Dec 2, 2021
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    What date is this print from? I want to know what Kroos average was p90
     
  22. lessthanjake

    lessthanjake Member+

    May 9, 2015
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Not actually sure the exact date for that chart, but you can find Kroos’s info on FBref anyways (at least from 2017-2018 onwards). He’s averaged 11.3 per 90 in league + CL. So, close to Xavi’s number but not quite as high. And I think besides Messi no one else is even close to those guys.
     
  23. Isaías Silva Serafim

    Real Madrid
    Brazil
    Dec 2, 2021
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    I think Kroos average may be higher if counting pre 17/18 seasons
     
  24. lessthanjake

    lessthanjake Member+

    May 9, 2015
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    It’s possible, but we don’t really know (and Kroos’s numbers haven’t gone down over time in the span we have data for, so we can’t really draw an inference based on that that it would be higher in pre-2017-2018 seasons), and the data for Xavi is also missing a couple major peak years for him. It’s not the entire career for either of them, so there’s definitely sampling error such that we can’t truly say with much confidence who would be ahead over their full careers. What we can definitely say though is that they were both absolutely elite in this regard, since the kind of progressive passing stats we know they’ve put up over significant portions of their careers is well above anyone else in the 2017-2018-onwards timeframe (i.e. where we have full data on this) except Messi.
     
    Isaías Silva Serafim repped this.
  25. SayWhatIWant

    SayWhatIWant Member+

    Jan 10, 2015
    [​IMG]

    This is the sort of value the best midfielders offer - look at Iniesta. This is what Xavi did not do.

    Passing Impact - Iniesta is way ahead:
    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    "A healthy proportion of the 96 passes he produced yesterday went nowhere, into areas that only retained a simple pattern. There was scant direction, purpose and penetration." - Football Espagna

    Com
     

Share This Page