Perfomance at the WC: Maradona `1986 vs Messi 2022?

Lol, this is so disingenuous. It’s certainly the case that not all posts/arguments/information about Lionel Messi relate to arguments I’ve previously made. The posts you’re making in particular obviously do though. We previously had an entire long argument in this thread in which I said Messi is effectively an attacking midfielder and contributes outside of goalscoring like an elite playmaker, and you disagreed. This “series” of posts of yours now is very plainly aimed against that. In fact, you even explicitly introduced the “series” of posts by referring back to that discussion (saying: “We had a discussion earlier about Messi being an AM who scores at the rate of a world-class goalscorer.”). And you’ve now just made yet another post that explicitly relates back to a different argument you and I have had in the past—this time about Messi’s vs. Zidane’s dribbling stats. Once again, your post even explicitly refers back to our prior discussion, making reference to something that “was previously claimed” by me. You don’t get to unilaterally demand me not to respond to defend my prior arguments while you incessantly attack them, and I’m not sure why you think you do.

 

You were only one person among a few who was talking about Messi as a playmaker. @Praasen @Sexy Beast
So kindly have the decency to accept you do not have the monopoly on arguments, and don't consider an analysis of a player as a personal attack.
I analyzed Messi's passing at length. It is natural that I analyze his dribbling compared to a historicaly great playmaker since most of his dribbling comes in more central areas since his winger days.
Also, stop replying to me as you repeatedly claim you would do. You are harassing me.

 

I am quite confident that others can make a rational assessment of what’s happening here and see that you are incessantly trying to attack/refute my prior arguments with you while simultaneously demanding I not respond. And when you do that, I will substantively respond if I want to, as is my right on a public internet forum, and doing so is not even remotely close to “harassing” you.

 

Analyzing Messi's dribbling:

Dribbling stats per Opta and Fbref, based on data available to me

Messi 2017 to 2023
4.58 per 90 (success rate 65.2)
Single (and best) season, age 30, 5.56 per 90 (success rate 72%)

Career stats per MessivsRonaldo.com
4.60 successful dribbles every 90 minutes

Messi World Cup 2014
Age 29 (similar age to Zidane at Euro, and dribbling peak)
5.97 successful dribbles per 90 (63% success rate!)

Zidane 2001/02
5.95 per 90 (success rate 87%) - it was previously claimed that this represented "dribbles and run", but I doubt as the number approaches his dribble rate at the Euro playing for a superior offensive team, more touches, in a more open championship (La Liga with Real). If we make the presumption this includes runs, we can infer based on the difference of 5.4 and 4.8, what proportion are dribbles based on the present opta definition.

Euro 2000
4.8 successful dribbles per 90 (per recent article in Opta - attribute 24 dribbles)
Back in 2000, Opta calculated 27 dribbles so 5.4 per 90 (rate of 77% success rate)
vs. Portugal - completed 9 out 10 attempted dribbles (absurd number at that level of competition).

If we look at Champions League data:

These are 2009 to 2022 (so includes years in Messi's dribbling peak - which do not necessarily coincide with his playmaking peak - his role morphed in MSN era and beyond)
Lionel Messi: 563 completed with a 50% success rate
Cristiano Ronaldo: 244 completed with a 58.8% success rate

Zidane 2002/03 Champions League 76% success rate
8.35 dribbles AND RUNS per 90

Messi 2012/13 ALL COMPS including CWC etc 51% success rate
8.9 dribbles AND RUNS per 90

That's a lousy success rate.


So, what can we gather from all this?
For one, Zidane's dribbling peak is among the undoubtedly the greatest in history. We do not have his seasonal stats with Juve - but he was more physically adept in those years than his Real Madrid years.
Messi has an inferior dribble success rate than Ronaldo - Ronaldo who plays higher up the pitch and in more congested areas. Obviously, they are not as prolific, but there is no way to tell where either is producing their dribbles. From data we had analyzed prior, only the most miniscule fraction of Messi's dribbles are shot-creating actions, so they are mostly coming in the midfield and wing anyway - which makes a comparison with Zidane apt.
What you get the sense though, is that Messi absolutely attempts too many dribbles. He has a tendency to force the issue, and is attempting dribbles and losing a lot of possessions in situations where another play would likely be preferable. I doubt the huge gulf in success rate as compared to Zidane is purely due to superior technical skill on the part of Zidane. Probably the difference is superior situational awareness from Zidane - just better application and decision-making - when to dribble and when not to. His size might make a difference, but Messi also has a superior burst.

 

That actually was an ill timed challenge by the keeper.he didn't get the ball..so my point stays.

 

Just to make it clear. You are saying absolute bs based on this post, but i am not reading or engaging

 

Your reply is a reflection of your self-dignity. The numbers provided are verifiable. Your opinion is not. And your lack of decorum is an insult to yourself.

 

FBref seems to have just added stats on progressive carries, progressive carry distance, carries into the attacking third, and carries into the penalty area. This now allows us to get a more complete picture of how much players progress the ball, both through passing and running/dribbling with the ball.

The data exists from 2017-2018 onwards, and we can look at per 90 mins data for league + CL/Europa combined. I have looked at the combined progressive passing + carries data per 90 mins for a whole slew of top players that can be characterized as midfielders (ranging from DMs, to CMs, to AMs), which I will compare below with Lionel Messi. I will also add a few dedicated goalscorers (specifically, Ronaldo, Lewandowski, Suarez, Benzema, and Haaland) into the data, just in order to provide some context on where those types of players land in these stats. In each category, the players are ranked from highest combined total to lowest.

League + CL/Europa Progression Stats per 90 mins (2017-2018 onwards)

Progressive Passes + Progressive Carries (per 90 mins)

1. Messi: 10.3+5.84 = 16.14
2. Iniesta: 10.5+3.54 = 14.04 (note: only one season’s of data for Iniesta)
3. David Silva: 9.70+4.01 = 13.71
4. De Bruyne: 9.29+4.32 = 13.61
5. Kroos: 11.3+2.07 = 13.37
6. Thiago Alcantara: 11.1+1.51 = 12.61
7. Modric: 9.51+2.62 = 12.13
8. Verratti: 9.95+2.17 = 12.12
9. Kimmich: 9.13+2.41 = 11.54
10. Pogba: 8.34+2.77 = 11.11
11. Gundogan: 7.96+2.78 = 10.74
12. Dybala: 7.16+3.21 = 10.37
13. Bruno Fernandes: 7.86+2.49 = 10.35
14. Di Maria: 6.24+4.00 = 10.24
15. Jordan Henderson: 8.34+1.74 = 10.08
16. Bernardo Silva: 5.18+4.65 = 9.83
17. Jorginho: 8.58+0.97 = 9.55
18. Christian Eriksen: 7.41+2.10 = 9.51
19. N’Golo Kante: 6.53+2.49 = 9.02
20. Mason Mount: 5.59+3.13 = 8.72
21. Rakitic: 7.07+1.50 = 8.57
22. Busquets: 7.23+0.56 = 8.28
23. Havertz: 4.91+3.14 = 8.05
24. Benzema: 4.57+3.22 = 7.79
25. Cristiano Ronaldo: 3.42+4.19 = 7.61
26. Griezmann: 3.65+2.08 = 5.73
27. Casemiro: 5.01+0.64 = 5.65
28. Lewandowski: 2.77+1.91 = 4.68
29. Suarez: 2.43+1.63 = 4.06
30. Haaland: 1.70+1.74 = 3.44

Progressive Passing Distance + Progressive Carry Distance (per 90 mins)

1. Kroos: 479+152.3 = 631.3
2. Verratti: 442.5+186.8 = 629.3
3. Kimmich: 424.6+147.1 = 571.7
4. Thiago Alcantara: 409.3+141.9 = 551.2
5. Busquets: 376.9+94.4 = 471.3
6. Messi: 271.8+192.4 = 464.2
7. Modric: 323.3+137.8 = 461.1
8. Jorginho: 341.8+110.4 = 452.2
9. Jordan Henderson: 315.8+116.7 = 432.5
10. Iniesta: 279.7+149.6 = 429.3
11. De Bruyne: 262.5+160.6 = 423.1
12. Rakitic: 306.0+113.8 = 419.8
13. Pogba: 275.6+135.8 = 411.4
14. Gundogan: 237.5+139.9 = 377.4
15. Casemiro: 293.4+75.9 = 369.3
16. Christian Eriksen: 257.4+100.9 = 358.3
17. Bruno Fernandes: 247.9+99.3 = 347.3
18. David Silva: 197.5+136.5 = 334.0
19. Di Maria: 196.5+130.0 = 326.5
20. N’Golo Kante: 204.5+121.9 = 326.4
21. Bernardo Silva: 143.6+157.5 = 301.1
22. Dybala: 154.9+103.3 = 258.2
23. Mason Mount: 150.6+93.3 = 243.9
24. Havertz: 104.2+94.0 = 198.2
25. Griezmann: 105.7+69.4 = 175.1
26. Cristiano Ronaldo: 68.3+105.2 = 173.5
27. Benzema: 83.2+81.6 = 164.8
28. Lewandowski: 49.9+47.5 = 97.4
29. Suarez: 51.3+45.7 = 97.0
30. Haaland: 32.8+37.5 = 70.3

Passes into the Attacking Third + Carries into the Attacking Third (per 90 mins)

1. Kroos: 11.1+2.13 = 13.23
2. Messi: 7.08+5.55 = 12.63
3. Iniesta: 8.75+3.65 = 12.40
4. Thiago Alcantara: 9.97+2.2 = 12.17
5. Verratti: 8.78+2.66 = 11.44
6. Jorginho: 9.00+1.52 = 10.52
7. Modric: 7.69+2.38 = 10.07
8. De Bruyne: 5.78+3.85 = 9.63
9. Gundogan: 6.60+2.82 = 9.42
10. Jordan Henderson: 7.81+1.57 = 9.38
11. Kimmich: 7.27+2.09 = 9.36
12. Busquets: 8.17+1.11 = 9.28
13. David Silva: 5.26+3.54 = 8.80
14. Pogba: 6.64+2.15 = 8.79
15. Rakitic: 7.02+1.72 = 8.74
16. Christian Eriksen: 6.03+2.28 = 8.31
17. Bruno Fernandes: 5.36+2.13 = 7.49
18. N’Golo Kante: 4.82+2.61 = 7.43
19. Di Maria: 3.64+3.09 = 6.73
20. Casemiro: 5.26+0.99 = 6.25
21. Bernardo Silva: 2.98+3.25 = 6.23
22. Dybala: 3.56+2.57 = 6.13
23. Mason Mount: 3.59+2.49 = 6.08
24. Havertz: 2.78+2.26 = 5.04
25. Cristiano Ronaldo: 1.86+2.96 = 4.82
26. Benzema: 2.31+1.98 = 4.29
27. Griezmann: 2.25+1.78 = 4.03
28. Lewandowski: 1.3+1.27 = 2.57
29. Suarez: 1.05+1.11 = 2.16
30. Haaland: 0.69+0.73 = 1.42

Passes into the Penalty Area + Crosses into the Penalty Area + Carries into the Penalty Area (per 90 mins)

1. Messi: 3.92+0.13+1.83 = 5.88
2. De Bruyne: 3.74+0.8+0.95 = 5.49
3. Di Maria: 2.66+0.53+1.38 = 4.57
4. David Silva: 2.67+0.14+1.08 = 3.89
5. Iniesta: 2.36+0.22+1.03 = 3.61
6. Benzema: 1.70+0.04+1.57 = 3.31
7. Bernardo Silva: 1.60+0.25+1.41 = 3.26
8. Bruno Fernandes: 2.28+0.38+0.5 = 3.16
9. Cristiano Ronaldo: 0.93+0.16+1.72 = 2.81
10. Dybala: 1.43+0.19+1.18 = 2.80
11. Kimmich: 2.1+0.42+0.25 = 2.77
12. Mason Mount: 1.51+0.26+0.87 = 2.64
13. Havertz: 1.19+.0.08+1.07 = 2.34
14. Verratti: 1.97+0.08+0.24 = 2.29
15. Christian Eriksen: 1.70+0.28+0.30 = 2.28
16. Suarez: 1.03+0.07+1.16 = 2.26
17. Pogba: 1.66+0.08+0.46 = 2.20
18. Modric: 1.55+0.14+0.5 = 2.19
19. Lewandowski: 1.03+0.1+0.97 = 2.10
20. Griezmann: 1.24+0.11+0.71 = 2.06
21. Haaland: 0.77+0.02+1.15 = 1.94
22. Gundogan: 1.45+0.08+0.34 = 1.87
23. Jordan Henderson: 1.44+0.29+0.14 = 1.87
24. Kroos: 1.17+0.16+0.23 = 1.56
25. N’Golo Kante: 1.11+0.16+0.21 = 1.48
26. Thiago Alcantara: 1.15+0.02+0.2 = 1.37
27. Jorginho: 1.15+0.04+0.03 = 1.22
28. Rakitic: 0.79+0.10+0.16 = 1.05
29. Casemiro: 0.60+0.09+0.08 = 0.77
30. Busquets: 0.71+0.01+0.02 = 0.74

As we can see, as compared to the world’s elite midfielders, Messi is at the very top in progression of the ball. He has the most progressive passes + carries of any of these elite midfielders. He has the most passes + carries into the penalty area. He is second only to Toni Kroos in passes + carries into the attacking third. And his progressive passing + carry distance is only behind just a few of these midfielders, who all generally play particularly deep midfield roles (i.e. unlike Messi, they all rack up a lot of progressive passing + carry distance in the defensive half).

Overall, based on this data, Messi is not just an elite progressor of the ball in the attacking half—he is THE elite progressor of the ball in the attacking half. There is no better player in the world at progressing the ball and building up play. Along with final-ball playmaking, this is the role/responsibility of midfielders in attack, and Messi pretty clearly does it the best of anyone overall. Meanwhile, the players who are dedicated goalscorers are miles away from Messi (and pretty much all the midfielders) in all of this except for passes + carries into the penalty area (where they’re still at least way below Messi). Their contributions to this phase of play are just not in the same galaxy as Messi’s.

There is just no question that Messi contributes massively to ball progression and build-up play. In fact, he is very arguably the best in the world at it. Meanwhile, of course, he is also absolutely elite at providing the final ball. Indeed, as I’ve reported recently in another thread, Messi creates insane amounts of big chances, with his big chances created per 90 mins in the timeframe we have such data for (2015-2016 onwards) only even being remotely rivaled by KDB, Angel Di Maria, and Neymar.

It should go without saying that a player who is probably the world’s greatest progressor of the ball and probably the world’s greatest provider of a final ball can (and often does) have fantastic games without scoring.

 

FYI @Sexy Beast , particularly in light of the very aggressive and personally attacking response you received to this post, I will inform you (and any other reader of this) that you were, in fact, correct that that post was BS, and a large portion of the numbers provided in it certainly are not “verifiable.”

See below for a few obvious examples:

This information is verifiably false, at least as it relates to Messi’s dribble success rate. WhoScored provides us with data about successful and unsuccessful dribbles for each Champions League season from 2009-2010 through 2021-2022. The numbers provided in this post for Cristiano Ronaldo are actually exactly correct. WhoScored has Ronaldo completing 244 dribbles out of 415 attempted dribbles in the Champions League, for a success rate of 58.8%. But, curiously (and perhaps not surprisingly, given the poster), the numbers provided here for Messi do not line up with WhoScored’s data at all. As per WhoScored, in those years in the Champions League, Messi completed 561 dribbles out of a total of 931 attempted dribbles. This is a success rate of 60.3%. Which is obviously completely different from the 50% success rate reported in this post—in which this poster used that false success rate to argue that “Messi has an inferior dribble success rate than Ronaldo.”

See the “Detailed” tab here if you’re curious to validate this data: https://www.whoscored.com/Players/11119/History/Lionel-Messi

More generally, I’ll also note that if we looked at WhoScored’s data for league + CL + NT competitions started in 2009-2010, we find that Messi has completed 2681 out of an attempted 4386 dribbles, for a success rate of 61.1%, while Ronaldo completed 1001 out of an attempted 1884 dribbles, for a success rate of 53.1%. So, @Sexy Beast, as you suspected, the argument here was BS.

As best as I can tell, this information regarding Messi’s purported success rate on dribbles and runs comes not from OPTA or FBref (as was claimed in the post), but rather from the following Reddit post, posted by a now-suspended Reddit user: https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/1v3ufj/ronaldo_ribery_and_messi_statistics_2013/.

That Reddit post provides no source for its data, and the supposed 51% dribbles and runs success rate is pretty obviously not plausible.* Indeed, WhoScored has dribble success rates for the 2012-2013 and 2013-2014 league + CL seasons. So we can get a good picture of what Messi’s success rate on dribbles was in 2013. Between league and CL, Messi had a 57.0% dribble success rate in 2013-2014, while he had a 58.8% dribble success rate in 2012-2013. And, importantly, “dribbles and runs” are obviously completed much more often than just “dribbles,” since definitionally a “dribble” is a run with the ball where an opposing player tries to tackle you, and therefore a “run” is one where they don’t try to tackle you. Therefore, combining the two is obviously going to yield a substantially higher overall success rate than just the dribble success rate. It is therefore not plausible that Messi’s “dribbles and runs” success rate in 2013 was below his league + CL “dribble” success rate in 2012-2013 and 2013-2014. Nor did this poster actually provide/identify any statistical source backing up such a claim.

Amusingly, though, if we *did* take this dribbles and runs success rate info seriously (which we shouldn’t), then we’d also have to believe that Cristiano Ronaldo’s dribbles and runs success rate in 2013 was 46.03%—substantially lower than the 51.36% listed for Messi. Which would, of course, contradict the other argument—debunked above—that Cristiano Ronaldo had a higher dribble success rate than Messi. Since the info seems to be nonsense, that doesn’t matter, except for the fact that the author of this post obviously saw that info, thought it was correct, and chose not to disclose it, all while centering a large portion of his post on the idea that Ronaldo had a higher dribble success rate than Messi. Pretty disingenuous stuff.

_____________

* It does seem that the actual number of dribbles and runs in the Reddit post is derived from a BBC article: https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/25705922. However, that article does *not* list any dribble and run success rate, so that is not a source for the success rate data provided here. The article only lists numbers of dribbles and runs. It’s also perhaps worth noting that that article does not cite an underlying statistical source for that data though, and even those numbers of “dribbles and runs” seem like they might be mistaken, since the number provided for Ribery is so high that it would be about 24 dribbles and runs per 90 minutes (!!!).

This relates to something that I have explained to this poster repeatedly over the course of years, while he repeatedly tries to suggest that Zidane was a more prolific dribbler than Messi.

There is of course no indication given in this post of where that 5.95 per 90 mins statistic comes from (I wonder if it’s perhaps because providing others access to the source might make obvious that it’s “dribbles and runs”?), but it is pretty obviously dribbles and runs when we look at the number and the success rate, and recognize that “dribbles and runs” stats were more commonly reported by OPTA back then.

The poster suggests that it is probably dribbles because Zidane purportedly made 4.8 successful dribbles per 90 minutes in Euro 2000. As an initial matter, that’s not even correct. Zidane made 24 dribbles in 5 matches, but he played in extra times (and therefore had 493 minutes of play in 5 matches), so it was actually 4.38 dribbles per 90 mins in Euro 2000. More importantly, 5 matches is a tiny sample size, and, as this poster well knows, we also have dribbles data for Zidane from the World Cup. As per SofaScore, in the World Cup, Zidane played 1108 total minutes and made 25 total dribbles, for a total of 2.03 dribbles per 90 minutes. If we combined that with the Euro 2000 data, we get 49 total dribbles in 1601 minutes. This is 2.75 dribbles per 90 minutes overall for Zidane in the data we have. Which is of course *miles away* from 5.95 dribbles per 90 minutes—making quite obvious that that 5.95 number is “dribbles and runs,” not dribbles.

This poster also suggests that, even if the 5.95 number is dribbles and runs, we can infer that the actual dribbles number isn’t much below that, because of Zidane’s Euro 2000 dribbles numbers. As noted above, when we look at more data for Zidane, that is pretty clearly wrong, since the total data we have for Zidane is way below 5.95 per 90 minutes. And it’s also just pretty obvious wrong when we look at how much “dribbles and runs” stats end up above “dribbles.” For instance, as I have already pointed out to this poster multiple times in the past, we have examples where we know both stats for an individual. For instance, I’ve previously provided this poster with the following: http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/11670/2705370/premier-league-stats. There, we can see that OPTA had Victor Moses leading the EPL in “Dribbles & Runs” on May 3rd of the 2011-2012 season, with 247 dribbles and runs. Victor Moses had played 36 matches that season at that point, so that was 6.9 Dribbles & Runs per match. Yet, if we go to WhoScored, we can see that Victor Moses actually only completed 2.5 dribbles a match that season. So it is quite obvious that “dribbles & runs” stats are not similar to “dribbles” at all in terms of numbers people complete. Therefore, it does not make sense to think Zidane’s 5.95 dribbles and runs per 90 minutes would correspond to anywhere near that many dribbles. Indeed, if anything, the implication here is that 5.95 dribbles & runs per 90 minutes for Zidane probably only corresponds to barely over 2 dribbles per match (which would also be consistent with his WC dribbles stats). That is obviously miles below Messi’s dribble stats—which would come as no surprise to anyone who has watched both players play. That is, except apparently for this particular poster, who has spent years now making this claim that Zidane’s a more profile dribbler than Messi, despite also occasionally admitting his argument is based on a mistaken interpretation of data, only to reprise the claim again years later and make the exact same type of mistaken interpretation once again. At this point, it would appear to obviously be in bad faith.

In any event, more generally, this all pretty clearly obviates the point of this portion of the post. So, once again, you were correct about this post.

 

I laughed because you continuously at this point you are only disrespecting yourself as a man. For somebody that promised to stop engaging in conversation, you have made it your life's mission to constantly reply to my posts - only in an increasingly rude and condescending fashion.

Since I told you I was not going to be engaging you further, I have not replied to a single one of your posts - despite your systematic attempts to engage everything that I say. I can only surmise that you are obsessed with me. That is extremely unhealthy and I am deeply concerned for your mental health.

Finally, you are categorically perpetuating falsehoods.
I provided statistics from Zidane's peak physical years (slightly off peak actually).
The data clearly labels dribbles as dribbles and draws a distinction with dribbles and runs.
As I showed, he produced upward of 8 dribbles and runs per game - not 5 as you pathetically claim.
Your calculation for Euro 2000 are also wrong.
You are digging yourself deeper in the hole you have created for yourself.
You insulted me repeatedly, posted condescendingly, attempted to ask other posters to stop engaging with my content, and have repeatedly claimed to refuse to give the content the time of day - and yet continue to reply. And further, in doing so, you have perpetuated several lies and inaccuracies which I let slide because I do not engage with mentally unstable individuals.

The facts are clear:
Zidane produce 5.95 dribbles per game, and according to the same source 8.35 dribbles and runs. The source is Opta and covers 2001 to 2003. Messi has a dribble success rate which is not all that impressive.
I will post the sources shortly.

 

Lol, okay buddy.

I’ll just note that you literally have recently gone searching through my posts on another website’s forums to find things to quote here and attack me for, and yet you accuse me of being “obsessed” with you. Hahahaha. I assure you that you hold extremely little importance in my life (as I hope I do in yours, though the aforementioned incident might suggest otherwise). I’m just posting about football and a lot of your posts happen to be ones I disagree with (often because they’re aimed directly against my prior posts) and/or are ones that require factual correction.

 

Let us take a more detailed look at our comparison, with sources:

Analyzing Messi's and Zidane's dribbling:

Messi 2017 to 2023 (per FBrEF / OPTA)
4.58 per 90 (success rate 65.2)
Single (and best) season, age 30, 5.56 per 90 (success rate 72%)

SOURCE:


Source: https://fbref.com/en/players/d70ce98e/Lionel-Messi#all_stats_possession

I was interested in drawing a comparison at a similar age to Zidane's data in a somewhat similar league - 5.56 per 90 with a success rate at 72% - which is his best performance based on available data here.

Career stats per MessivsRonaldo.com
4.60 successful dribbles every 90 minutes
(This is easily verifiable)

Career stats per whoscored:
4.4 successful dribbles every 90 minutes



Messi World Cup 2014
Age 29 (similar age to Zidane at Euro, and dribbling peak)
5.97 successful dribbles per 90 (63% success rate!)

ACCORDING TO WHOSCORED this is lower:
Messi World Cup 2014:
5.6 successful dribbles per 90 (61.5% success rate) - According to this popular source, this is a clearly inferior performance to Zidane in Euro 2000.

Source:
https://www.whoscored.com/Players/11119/History/Lionel-Messi






This is Opta. The same source has two different categories - dribbles, and dribbles and runs. @lessthanjake is trying to pathetically claim that a multi-million company specialized in statistics cannot label their data properly - that's a pretty big and laughable claim.
When we do basic calculations, we find that

La Liga dribbles
5.95 per 90 (success rate 87%)

Champions League dribbles and runs:
8.35 dribbles AND RUNS per 90 (success rate 76%)

So the claim @lessthanjake is perpetrating is that (1) Opta in the exact same website and source, mislabels their data (2) Zidane is far more prolific older and less mobile in a tougher competition - by an absurd amount.

In reality, the success rate drops because 87% is clearly an outlier, and Zidane regresses to the mean. This is against tougher opposition, and it is an older version of the player.

In fact, Messi productivity in terms of dribbles vs. dribbles and runs tracks almost identically:

Zidane 2002/03 Champions League 76% success rate
8.35 dribbles AND RUNS per 90

Messi 2012/13 ALL COMPS including CWC etc 51% success rate
8.9 dribbles AND RUNS per 90

Players who deliver around 5 successful dribbles per 90. And then produce about 8+ dribbles and runs per 90.

For the Champions League stats:

source:
https://www.givemesport.com/8806735...agues-20-most-successful-dribblers-since-2009

 

*Sigh*

We have literally been over this before, years ago, when you tried to post that exact same information regarding Zidane having 174 completed dribbles in the 2001-2002 league season, and I explained to you that you were not interpreting it correctly and you ultimately agreed I was correct.

I will just screenshot our exchange from years ago, when you tried to make this same claim:





You yourself then proceeded to admit I was right, stating in your very next post: “Yeah, it seems you're right about it being dribbles and runs for the La Liga stats. Fault Opta for the inconsistent wording.”

You can see the exchange here: https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/xavi-iniesta-better-than-zidane.2021285/page-38#post-32756853

It’s just complete insanity for you to personally attack me while repeating a factually incorrect argument that is based on a misinterpretation of information that you admitted was a misinterpretation years ago after I corrected it. That “completed dribbles” stat for Zidane in the 2001-2002 La Liga season is for completed dribbles and runs, as you yourself have previously admitted.

As for the website you posted at the end about Messi’s success rate, there’s no source cited besides a random tweet from a no-name account, and meanwhile WhoScored actually has this data. WhoScored data is obviously superior to a random internet post based on a random tweet, and WhoScored’s data completely contradicts your argument.

 

almost 50 pages to discuss a guy called messi - a normal football player. not a genius
this young generation loose time with something meaningless
everybody with 30 40 yrs old think this guy is better than maradona, pele , cruyff , etc
numbers , statistics and a lot of youtube videos (...and magazines as the "wonderful four four two!!)


this guy never will be better than pele maradona and all the players from the past

 

The data clearly suggest otherwise. Why bother about subjective opinions? This isn't a peer-reviewed publication. Also, they are simply trying to sell copies of the magazine/increase social media presence, their only objective (nevertheless, I do think that Messi is one of the best players ever and better than most players from the past/present).

 

I was wrong. I crunched the numbers and revisited the statistics. Those are the accurate dribble stats for that season and you acnnot demonstrate otherwise you clown.

I provided WHOSCORED and OPTA statistics in my latest post. The dribble success rate is not impressive. Dropped to to the 50s in recent years.

 

No. You are just operating in bad faith now. You admitted I was right before because I manifestly am right and you had the decency to admit it before.

Here’s the data you have presented from OPTA for that year:



It is very obvious that the “successful dribbles” stat is the number of completed dribbles and runs while the “most dribbles and runs” stat is attempted dribbles and runs.

Why is that?

Well, if we look at the numbers and the success rates, they map on perfectly. Take Denilson, for instance. He is listed as having 344 dribbles and runs, 252 successful dribbles, and a 73% success rate. And guess what? 252/344 = 0.73. It maps on perfectly. Or how about Joaquin? He has 286 dribbles and runs, 185 successful dribbles, and a 65% success rate. Again, guess what? 185/286 = 0.65. Let’s take Luis Figo, now. He has 258 dribbles and runs, 193 successful dribbles, and a 75% success rate. And what do we see when we do the same math? Yep, you guessed it: 193/258 = 0.75.

I am right. It is not debatable. The “successful dribbles” stat there is the number of completed dribbles and runs, while the “most dribbles and runs” stat refers to attempted dribbles and runs. You once had the decency to admit that, but now you not only have rescinded your prior admission of the obvious, but are calling me a “clown” in doing so. It’s just completely unhinged and in bad faith.

 

The past is always brighter...sometimes untouchable...but lists are always polemic...serve to foment a discussion...if it makes the interest grow on some names, great. Personally, I don't see a problem in Messi being number 1...and if he was number 2, that would be fine by me. Revisionism is very subjective. And regarding the research of the discussion, I prefer Maradona 86 to Messi 22...

 

Regarding dribble success rate, it’s certainly impressive if you (1) don’t compare dribbling success rates to “dribble and run” success rates (which is obviously comparing apples and oranges); and (2) don’t act like really low sample sizes of data for other players show very much.

For reference, using WhoScored data (which has League + CL + NT data from 2009-2010 onwards), here’s the dribble success rate for various really good dribblers in this era:

1. Eden Hazard: 63.74%
2. Andres Iniesta: 63.41%
3. Lionel Messi: 61.12%
4. Paulo Dybala: 58.78%
5. Joaquin: 57.95%
6. Hatem Ben Arfa: 57.65%
7. Sadio Mane: 57.53%
8. Ousmane Dembele: 56.99%
9. Arjen Robben: 56.29%
10. Neymar: 55.41%
11. Jadon Sancho: 54.89%
12. Cristiano Ronaldo: 53.13%
13. Mo Salah: 52.59%
14. Riyad Mahrez: 52.23%
15. Gareth Bale: 52.18%
16. Kylian Mbappe: 52.06%
17. Sergio Aguero: 51.53%
18. Franck Ribery: 51.27%
19. Angel Di Maria: 50.80%
20. Vinicius Jr.: 46.13%

Obviously, we see Messi is right near the top in dribble success rate. One could argue that he operates on average deeper in the pitch than some (though definitely not all) of these players, and that’s true. And deeper areas tend to be less congested and therefore easier to dribble in. But it’s also true that, for any given part of the pitch someone is in, it’s generally going to be more congested for Messi, because he gets loaded up on by defenses more than other players (and Barcelona’s slower-tempo playstyle also allows this to happen more than a counter-attacking style would). So he’s probably, on average, dealing with more congested space than the vast majority of these players.

Being near the very top of his era’s top dribblers in dribble success rate clearly indicates his dribble success rate is impressive. And it’s obviously not particularly persuasive to dispute that by pointing to Zidane’s dribble success rate in one five-game span in Euro 2000, since that’s just a tiny sample size of matches. For instance, it’s also true that Zidane had a 43% dribble success rate in the 1998 WC. These are just low sample sizes, though I think we can say that overall Zidane’s dribble success rate in the limited data we have (i.e. 17 matches from WC + Euro 2000) would be at or near the top of the above list—so that’s certainly impressive from him. But Messi’s dribble success rate is objectively very impressive and suggestions otherwise are just odd.

 

34 year old Zidane's best performance at the 2006 World Cup:
Brazil Quarter Finals
1-0 victory (90 minutes)
0 goals
1 assist
4 key passes
54 completed passes - 86 percent accuracy - This represents a WHOPPING 17 percent of his team's completed passes. This is an insane involvement.
6 crosses (3 accurate) - 50% accuracy
Shots on target 0
Shots off target 1
Attempted dribbles: 8 Successful: 7 87.5% Success Rate! Insane.
12 of 16 Ground Duels won
Aerial Duels 0 won of 1
Dribbled past 0
Possession losses: 14
Fouled 4 times


35 year old Messi's best performance at the 2022 World Cup:
Netherlands Quarter Finals
2-2 (won on penalties) - 120 minutes
1 goal (penalty)
1 assist (higher quality than Zidane's assist)
3 Key passes
37 completed passes - 82 percent accuracy - 7.4 % of team's passes.
2 crosses - 1 completed
Shots on target:2
Shots off target: 3
Attempted dribbles: 3 Successful: 2 66.7% success rate
10 of 14 Ground Duels won
Possession losses: 11
Fouled 8 times.

 

This cannot be emphasized enough, when it comes to that game. Messi’s assist was unbelievably good, and Zidane’s was off a free kick where someone was unmarked. Zidane’s game was probably better otherwise, but that one moment was the best and most decisive moment either had, by far. In any event, it’s also just approaching meaningless to compare single games. Overall, Messi’s 2022 WC was pretty clearly better than Zidane’s 2006 WC.

More generally, you’re also just flailing around over and over trying to come up with new things to denigrate Lionel Messi with—and as each one gets parried away, you come back with something else. Which is kind of surprising to me to see from someone who says he does not have any agenda against this player.

FYI, I’m also waiting on an apology from you for calling me a “clown” (amongst other attacks) for stating something I was 100% objectively correct about (and which you knew full well I was correct about, since you yourself had previously admitted it and I’d even already pointed that out before you called me a “clown”). I’m thinking you may be able to admit that you were wrong and behaved unacceptably.

 

Reported, I told you I am done replying to you. You will not be getting further replies, regardless of the content of your post, nor a reply to remind you that you have failed your own promise to yourself.
The best part of all this is seeing you flail constantly. The content of my posts sustain such an unmistakable frustration that you must rush to address them (with false premises and arguments of course). But it's actually really funny to see. You can keep replying to what I write, I will continue (silently) laughing. I don't bother replying back, because I told you I won't and I, frankly, do not care.

 

The fact that you’re unable to apologize for your behavior earlier in this page of this thread and that you instead double down on personal attacks is pretty breathtaking and quite telling. You made personal attacks against me for saying something that was not only 100% true, but that you’d already previously admitted was 100% true. And you did so even after I’d already pointed out that you’d previously admitted it and showed you why you’d done so. To personally attack me after that, and to now attack me again after I asked you for an apology is really just stunning behavior, and to put it mildly, it does not reflect well on you as a human being.

Anyways, to address one thing you have kept bizarrely stating over and over, I certainly never made any “promise to myself” to not respond to you. I wrote that I wouldn’t be responding to certain posts you’d made, and then you continued to make more posts that were largely aimed at arguments we’d previously had, and, as a result, I then decided I wished to respond. It is quite common, and indeed highly rational, to change one’s behavior/decisions when confronted with new circumstances. That’s kind of how human decision-making works, buddy. Not sure how you see that as some sign of moral/mental failing you should point out, but I guess you need to say something instead of apologizing.

 

Unless you were to argue that Cristiano, Robben, Ribery, Kaka, De Bruyne, Ozil, Hazard, Salah, Neymar, Mbappe, Lewandowski, Suarez, Aguero, Ronaldinho, everybody in the last 15 years was shit you are running into a brick wall since Messi is one of the most dominant players in history (only Pele compares to him) consistently proving himself at the very top in all teams, under all managers and countless teammates. He will win his 8th ballon dOr in 2023 cementing his legacy as at least number 2 all time.. stats, advanced stats, team success, eye test, longevity. All points out to one conclusion.

I pity anyone trying to argue against Messi at this point.

It must real suck to live with this bitterness and resentment towards Messi and present moment. Its easier to just let go and accept the truth thats staring at you directly in eyes.

 

Also to just say something about success rate of dribbling.. higher number is not necessarily better. This is just misinterpreting data. (Just like success rate in passing)

Yes, higher success rate means that player is good at dribbling but 90% success rate would also suggest that player is underutilizing its dribbling capabilities.

As I said many times in different threads, "mistakes" in football are not really mistakes since it is a low scoring sport with a lot of opportunities to create goalscoring chances so it is optimal to go for risky plays and create that one big chance that moght win a game.

Unlike tennis for example, where a single top corner winner that would make a great higlight in a youtube compilation amounts to a single point, just like any other way of winning the point. So consistently attempting shots with a low probability of hitting is a bad decision.

If anything, Messi is hitting the perfect balance between risk taking and playing it safe. Pretty obvious for anyone who has watched him play when at his best. He makes great decisions. Sometimes the best decision is to go for a killer pass or difficult dribble even if odds are against making it.

Thats just great football