Floor-raising and Ceiling-raising players?

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by poetgooner, Jun 16, 2021.

  1. peterhrt

    peterhrt Member+

    Oct 21, 2015
    Club:
    Leeds United AFC
    Ceiling raisers in English club football:

    Alex James, Dalglish, Cantona. Shilton?

    Floor raiser: Finney. Preston were sometimes referred to as Finney plus ten others.
     
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  2. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Arsenal
    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Yeah, all the elite players are both floor and ceiling raisers. The case is probably a little clearer with the "above average but not elite" players. However, I think there are still some cases where one does the other better.

    Like, I am absolutely convinced Henry was a better floor-raiser than Gerd Muller, and I think the German was arguably the higher ceiling raiser. Obviously, both of them can do either tasks, but I think there is a difference there. Mainly, Henry could do more things and therefore able to improve more deficiencies. However, if your team is going to create 7 shot a game for your striker, I think you would prefer Muller at the end of those chances more so than Henry.

    QUOTE="comme, post: 41102063, member: 27871"]
    I think a really valid point is made in the opening post about tactical fit/style and versatility being a better example or concept to consider here. Great players will generally make average/good/great teams better but not if you are duplicating what they bring to the side or unbalancing a team.

    For instance, I don't think anyone doubts that the Galactico players were fine individuals and in the right set up could all be ceiling raising players. I don't think anyone doubts David Beckham was a very good player. In the United side he helped to elevate them to European champions. His skillset probably had a chunk of crossover with Luis Figo but in theory his skills (exceptional crosser, passer and deadball specialist, good workrate) should have scaled up reasonably well. But his addition was offset by the loss of a top defensive midfielder (Makelele) who enabled everyone else to play.

    Would like to discuss this more if people are still interested.[/QUOTE]
    While it can be said that the Madrid Galacticos could've worked out, I think there is a legit concern around portability though. Some players are just easier to fit into a team than others.

    For example, is there any team in the world, playing in any system, that VVD wouldn't fit seamlessly into? Surely, that's an example of a high-port player.
     
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  3. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Yeah, I think these are good ideas, although comme's point about very good players generally improving things (depending on the circumstances as far as fitting the team goes, and fitting the competition and how the oppositions teams play etc, is certainly applicable in general I think).

    Shilton was famously the final piece of the jigsaw for Forest's success, but I guess had he been at a team that unlike Stoke at the time had more of a chance to get a mid-table finish he might have been able to help with that (it's more difficult, especially as a goalkeeper to turn relegation favourites into a mid-table team by yourself) and perhaps if he joined a promoted side with a bit less potential than Forest then he'd not have been able to help them challenge for the title. I know Clough considered him to be worth so many points a season (I forget how many he said now, but you might know the quote yourself) - in theory then he could be worth that to a side lower down too I suppose (but I don't really know a lot about how things were at Stoke before he left).

    Cantona for sure seems a great call, but I suppose both Leeds and Man Utd were on the verge of challenging for titles already, and on the flip side Man Utd won the CL a couple of years after he left. If he'd signed for Forest in mid 92/93 maybe he'd have helped them stay up (and be a floor raiser in that respect, albeit Forest had been a top half of the table club prior to that season), even without being an obvious fit since him and Nigel Clough arguably had similar attributes/role (I think in effect replacing Sheringham who'd been sold would be feasible though - there was no chance this transfer would have happened I guess, at least not once Man Utd were in for him, but it's just an example).
     
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  4. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
  5. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    I think that's generally true, assuming that better teams generally have more of the ball and manufacture better chances. Players who can't manufacture chances are clearly more tilted towards being ceiling-raisers as poor teams generally struggle with attacking creation.

    I think it is and it demonstrates his versatility and breadth of skillset. He's just an excellent all-round player.

    That point around being easier to fit into a team though, while I agree, is a bit away from what I understood the concept to be. There are some players whose fundamentals are just so strong they can do almost anything, can fit in anywhere. Is that the same thing?
     
  6. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    Couple of interesting players who made the move from Spurs to Real Madrid, Gareth Bale and Luka Modric.

    Both very good at Spurs, Bale good enough to (rightly or wrongly) be twice named player of the year. Modric slightly less highly regarded but people still thought he was a very good player. At Real Madrid, Modric's skills look better and better, he becomes arguably the best central midfielder in modern football history. Bale has some tremendous moments and at times looks a world beater, but overall (and injuries played a part here) he is more a floor raiser and less a ceiling raiser.
     
  7. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I guess a couple of tiers could even be added: table raiser or something (meaning there are some good foundations and a player gives something extra to improve the team's results further - maybe Bale would then fit best in that category even for example?), and let's say roof raiser (I'm wondering whether Xavi could fit there?).

    I think it probably is hard to definitely say a player is only one thing though. The ceiling raisers I guess should be good at making great use (either as a scorer, or as a creator, or even as a defensive stalwart or a goalkeeper like Shilton) of a talented team that can do pretty well without them already, and at improving the cohesion, consistency etc. The floor raisers either able to win (some) games on their own (almost) or able to help relatively average players maximise their capabilities. 'Table raisers' if that level was introduced would be a step up on floor raisers perhaps, or require a better team before they can excel to their best potential on the other hand (or a bit of both?). Roof raisers (again if that category was introduced) to be able to enhance a top team and make them a legendary one?

    Maybe it's easier to categorise managers as ceiling or floor raisers to some extent though? Capello more ceiling raising, and Keegan more floor rasing maybe? Or Shankly as floor raiser, and Paisley as roof raiser (or did it just happen that way due to circumstances in part)? Clough more floor raiser, and Mourinho a (temporary?) ceiling raiser? Dalglish as manager a ceiling raiser? Wenger too (but arguably with a defective ceiling to repair, to use that analogy)? Ferguson a ceiling raiser, but with a slow impact?
     
  8. lessthanjake

    lessthanjake Member+

    May 9, 2015
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    I’ve listened to Thinking Basketball a lot as well, and so this is a concept I’ve tried to port over to football in my mind too.

    As you say, a lot of stuff about basketball doesn’t translate, and I certainly agree that a superstar in basketball makes a much bigger difference to their team than a superstar in football does. I could go on a long rant explaining why I think that’s the case, but I think it is just obviously true to anyone who pays attention to both sports.

    That said, I agree that the concept of floor raising and ceiling raising exists in football too. As you mention, a floor raiser in football may be someone who can be great but needs to be the focus of the team and have the ball a ton in order to be great, and does not do very well in roles where they’re less of a focus.

    But I also think there’s a related sense in which someone can be a floor raiser or ceiling raiser in football—a way that doesn’t really have an analogy in basketball IMO. Specifically, every player has certain tactical styles that their style of play works better or worse in. And, crucially, I think some styles of play in football simply take more skill and technical ability for a team to pull off. So, I think if someone excels in a style of play that doesn’t require their teammates to have much skill (for example, being great as a target man in a route 1 football style), then I think they could be classified as more of a floor raiser. Meanwhile, if someone excels most in a style of play that requires the team to be extremely skilled (for example, someone who excels in the modern possession-based styles used by lots of top teams these days), I think that player could be classified as more of a ceiling raiser.

    On that point, as an example, I see Xavi as a quintessential ceiling raiser. He plainly excelled the most at a particular style of play that is very technically demanding. So, the less good his teammates are, the less well he’d play and the less influential he’d be IMO, but with great teammates he raised them up to a level where they were possibly the GOAT club team and GOAT national team. Players who excel in a less highly-technical team tactic, or who just are versatile and don’t excel in any particular tactic are more likely to be floor raisers.

    With the way football is now, I personally think it’s clearly the case that it’s better for a player to be a ceiling raiser than a floor raiser. This is because the top club teams end up getting all the very top talent. So you just rarely have a situation like you often get in basketball, where a superstar spends most or all of their career on a team with all mediocre teammates. If you’re a great football player, you will almost certainly end up playing on a team where basically all your teammates are really good. And if, for some reason, you choose not to do that, it’ll be basically impossible for you to ever win anything, because you’ll be facing teams of all really good players in a sport where an individual superstar can’t make *that* big a difference, so your floor raising won’t really accomplish anything.
     
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  9. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    I don't think these concepts work well in football, but if I try it is something like:

    Cruijff initially a ceiling raiser and then a floor raiser for Barcelona?

    Bergkamp the other way around? Initially a floor raiser for Arsenal, later on, when he was older, a ceiling raiser?

    Ronaldinho a ceiling raiser? Robben ceiling raiser? Zidane... neither? (my first shout was 'ceiling' but then you get troubled by what the teams did before and after him). Gullit maybe more of a floor raiser? (the 1987-88 Milan team wasn't that great; the defense yes, which was also still excellent without Baresi/Maldini).

    I came across this yesterday (and maybe Given exaggerates slightly, I agree with the direction). Brad Friedel can be mentioned too here.
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    But is that the 'floor' or the 'ceiling'? I really don't know. One is tempted to think of the floor. But if one of those four European semi-finals and 2nd places in the league (which they had likely won if he hadn't missed games; he won the domestic cup in the only season he was eligible) are transformed into victories then it becomes less clear (and Barcelona jumps from #3 to #1 in UEFA their own flawed list).

    I suppose 'pure' strikers, 'pure' defenders (someone like Vierchowod, or Ayala) and explosive players without much of an engine are prone to be the 'ceiling' sort of people. But it feels a very flawed way of thinking.
     
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  10. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Yes, 1973/74 seems a case of 'floor rasing' for Cruyff I would've thought.

    It's hard to be definitive about these definitions, even thinking about what actually happened (let alone what else could have done playing for different teams): Pele was a catalyst for new/unprecedented heights for Brazil/Santos for example, but alongside a very good supporting cast. Maybe 'table raiser' (like I was thinking for Bale - I didn't mean to use a double entendre, just a part of a room between floor and ceiling lol, although maybe it works as such...as in rising up a league table too!) can be applicable often - not taking a team from nowhere, but just taking it to new places (or not turning a bad team into a great one, but a decent one into a very good or great one).
     
  11. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    I think with a lot of this we are violently agreeing.

    I think it exists but just isn't that important a concept. As we say, there are other more important lenses that it's worth viewing players through ahead of this one.

    Yes, agree with basically all of this.

    Again, I think this is all true. I also think though that national teams add an interesting extra element to things. Firstly, top players may play for modest national teams and tend to show how they might perform in a different setting. For instance, Lewandowski as great as he is, has never been able to replicate his club form at international level, even if he has scored a lot of goals. On the flip side of that, we sometimes get to see excellent players from smaller clubs playing at a higher level on the international stage. So there is more opportunity to see whether they can cope with a higher ceiling, before they then move up a level with a club.

    I also think there is just a more established pecking order in football which players can move up or down. Big clubs don't typically buy from small clubs, they buy from mid-sized teams, who in turn buy from smaller clubs. That really helps with the transferable nature of skills.
     
  12. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    @PDG1978 I think this is actually an excellent example of someone whose value changed. And it applies to very few forwards.

    In the first Arsenal season he made them quality for European football on the last day (mid table the season before) and the feel of the team changed almost overnight. From boring to entertaining, even if the narrative might be a bit over the top. His combined goals and assists were higher as Cantona in the same year. For a dysfunctional Internazionale there was something similar (an excellent goals and assists record against Milan and Juventus; Inter doing much worse in all the games he missed).

    Then in 2003-04 clearly some crucial interventions, making the unbeaten run a reality. And they missed him in European away games obviously (the statistics are clear; Arsenal was even unbeaten in the away games he did play for them, which includes Barcelona, Chelsea and Bayern). But he wouldn't be able to lift a Middlesbrough as a lone (former) superstar. Without those contributions in 2003-04 Arsenal had maybe still won the league (or is close), but not unbeaten or the double.

    2004-05 was the last season where Arsenal was a top two team (which they were from 1996 to 2005). After that he was basically a bench player in 2005-06 and Vieira moving on was a miss too. His combined non-penalty goals and assists in 2004-05 was after Henry and Lampard the third highest of the league (joint with Hasselbaink) even though he played deeper at that point.



    Whether he was ever an as high ceiling raiser as Ronaldinho (Ronaldinho is imho correctly seen as better as Rivaldo but that's for another time) or Baggio is something else but few forwards have shown both. Robben I think was primarily a ceiling guy (making 2004-2007 Chelsea literally invincible with an unbeaten streak), also for the national team.
     
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  13. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Yeah, it's going back a long time but maybe Di Stefano could be a bit similar in that respect it seems?
     
  14. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Think that applies 100% to the years we have videos of, the more so after 1960. In the early years it is hard to say.

    Maybe or arguably Real Madrid was already very good and close to the title before/without him, and also a few other important players came at the same time. He did cover way more ground and kilometers as his contemporaries. People actually tracked that data for a few games. He covered (more than) twice as many as his compatriot Sivori.

    It is hard, also because these concepts have a limited application to football. I don't think though ADS really changed his playing style, role and position throughout the years (which is related to his time; in the 1970s you had Breitner, Neeskens and Cruijff who really did play different positions and roles). He didn't move really deeper I think. It is just that he could outrun the opponent less and less and therefore no longer could be the floor?

    One other problem is that for the latter Madrid years you have an old Puskas or (younger) Gento who were maybe even more ceiling sort of people? How many ceiling figures can one eleven have?
     
  15. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Yeah, it's difficult really to say a player is clearly one thing rather than another, when in essence it comes back to as comme was alluding to, excellent players generally helping the team to improve their level and results, and also the matter of fitting the team. Some of it is circumstantial too: the clubs are where they are when a player arrives, although some players we've mentioned were already at clubs (or we're just talking theoretically in terms of the attributes) eg Xavi at Barcelona or Cruyff at Ajax (once the team were in a position for him to be a ceiling raiser he surely was in effect acting as one).


    I did a brainstorm for my club Nottingham Forest, about where certain players might fit best though:

    More ceiling raisers: John McGovern (constructive anchor/central midfield player), Nigel Clough (supporting forward, without much pace, but with excellent vision and kicking accuracy), Peter Withe (striker with decent hold-up play and passing, and good finishing with head and left foot when he got the opportunities), Joao Carvalho (number 10 type), Morgan Gibbs-White (industrious but skilled supporting forward or AM, with ability to play excellent final balls)

    Both, mixed or in between but balance towards ceiling raiser: Lars Bohinen (skilled and inventive central/attacking midfielder), Peter Shilton (top goalkeeper who was hard to beat from half chances even with spectacular shots, though could also make multiple saves when team was under pressure in certain games), Archie Gemmill (effervescent central midfielder with an all-round game - speed, control, quality passes, tenacious tackling and tracking back, but not a lot of size or power), Roy Keane (goalscoring box to box midfielder at the time), Tony Woodcock (speedy forward who could score goals, link play, dribble, set up goals)

    Both, mixed or in between but balance towards floor raiser: Stan Collymore (talented soloist and goalscorer), Trevor Francis (similarly speedy and capable to go alone: bought to be a ceiling raiser in effect but possibly more floor raising capabilities because he'd be a source of incisiveness and/or goals often enough for the club not to drop down too far or have too much of a goal drought...which they started to do to an extent when he was sold, and he also came into the team and helped the goals scored column when he first arrived although ended up scoring the European Cup Final winning goal too), Steve Stone (hard working winger or midfielder who also played his part well in attacking sequences with his passing and running off the ball), Neil Webb (goalscoring midfield playmaker), Viv Anderson (athletic right back who could contribute well at both ends in his young days: arriving in attack and also using his long legs to help him be hard to pass for wingers)

    More floor raisers: Des Walker (hard to beat central defender), Duncan McKenzie (unpredictable and skillful attacker), Ian Bowyer (all-round box to box midfielder, who could play other positions like full back too), Michael Dawson (efficient central defender with decent ball control and good reading of the game, plus height), Peter Davenport (striker with pace and ability to score and create goals, sometimes from half chances, though I'm not sure about putting him here necessarily as I don't know how he'd have been with virtually no service or or players to interact with in attack - he did well in comparatively average Forest teams maybe, compared to surrounding years, but not ones without any quality or fluency at all).
     
  16. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Robin van Persie as a floor raiser possibly.

    His goals for Arsenal (last three years) and Manchester United were worth more points than any EPL player before or since, but those teams were both far removed from the best Wenger and Ferguson teams. His goals in 2011-12 took care of 24 points, with CL qualification as result. Then it was replicated in the first Manchester United season (per a The Times article).

    In general his peak is a fair bit underrated. Both the absolute level as well as the variety in skills showed (long passes, one touch or two touch through balls etc)

    At the same time, for all his (quality) goals against a Germany, France, Brazil or Spain at major tournaments, he was not as good for the national team (although SofaScore had him MOTM in two).



    He had also moments when Arsenal was still a top level team but on the whole he only showed that he could raise flawed teams (as seen again when he returned with Fenerbahce to Manchester). Too bad that folks like Chiellini wrecked his ankles (some say that good players have a sixth sense for this, and jump out of the way, but for the most part that is nonsense and not applicable).

    Luis Suarez maybe did both floor and ceiling, but in 2013-14 he didn't deliver against the top six (which most know). Perhaps more a ceiling figure if anything (just as Robben, with his KO record in the CL).
     
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  17. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #42 carlito86, Feb 5, 2023
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2023
    Gareth bale 2012/13


    Probably one of the legendary examples of a floor raiser player of this(now past) generation

    Dragged a distinctly average Tottenham to within a whisker of a top 4 finish

    Was literally creating goals out of thin air


    12/13 Bale is the most devastating individual season I've seen from a player in the Premier league over the last 10 years

    He was not as ball dominant as others of his age group(hazard or Neymar for example) but when he was on the ball he was going straight for the heart of the defence

    Neither was he the most technical wide player we've seen IMO but id say at his best definitely one of the most impactful
     
  18. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Arsenal
    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    This makes his transformation into more of a ceiling-raising player quite interesting. He developed both his off-ball and aerial game at Madrid, which allowed him to excel even with less of the ball than he had at Spurs.
     

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