CWC 2022 Referees [Rs]

Discussion in 'Referee' started by MassachusettsRef, Jan 14, 2023.

  1. USSF REF

    USSF REF Guest

    I don't know what was going on, but I got Distinctly strange impression that there were a lot of technical issues with this event, or at least that specific game because the TV and internet feed cut out multiple times. I've never seen that level of communication failure at an international event hosted by FIFA before. Something was odd with the technology and I wonder if the referee's communication system factored into that.

    Maybe I'm just being cynical and assuming things here, but it just felt interconnected. Nothing provable.

    That said, unless the monitor was malfunctioning, I really think the mechanics he used to make this announcement were terrible. I guess it's hard to teach an old dog new tricks.
     
  2. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #27 MassachusettsRef, Feb 5, 2023
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2023
    Referees are not supposed to go to the monitor for Mistaken Identity.

    Except in MLS.

    And except they probably should, per my post above.

    But they are instructed not to. So he did nothing wrong relative to that point.
     
  3. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Even PRO doesn't have them go to the monitor for mistaken identity I don't think, but the cases I can think of were simple matters of switching a YC without having to worry about a sending off.

    EDIT: Yes I'm already looking for the last time it happened in MLS
     
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  4. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yeah. I was wavering on that and I think you’re right. But sending someone off as a consequence is a big difference. I kind of presume a monitor trip would occur here. And if it wouldn’t, it should.
     
  5. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Found one from the Union/Red Bulls game back in May. Simple YC change with no monitor visit. Few if anyone covering the game would have realized the VAR was even involved.

    Agreed that in MLS at least it would/should go to the monitor once a sending off was involved, for consistency with the rest of the process if nothing else.
     
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  6. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    Might it depend on how obvious the mistaken identity was? There are some where everyone in the stadiums know the mistake. (Though hopefully those would be caught by the rest of the on field team without having to involve the VAR.)
     
  7. USSF REF

    USSF REF Guest

    I know, but I was wondering if the whole system was having issues since... It appears that his pa mic is tied to his boom that connects with the VOR. I don't really know. It just seemed like something was up with tech yesterday, or I could be attribting causation to circumstantial evidence.

    In either case, we can agree that how that communication was dealt with was too frantic. I did appreciate the clarification on mistaken identity though. There just has to be a better mechanic.
     
  8. StarTime

    StarTime Member+

    United States
    Oct 18, 2020
    There was also one, I think in Cincinnati or Chicago, I think last year, and I think with Ramy Touchan in the middle (I might be wrong about any or all of those three facts), where there was a yellow card given for a challenge very close to the monitor, but the VAR identified mistaken identity. However, it was a weird one because the yellow card was actually a mistake anyways! But the referee went over to the monitor since it was so little of a hassle to do so, and changed the yellow card to the correct player. Barkey discussed this on Inside Video Review and noted that going over to the monitor is not required, but in this case it made sense in the circumstances.
     
  9. StarTime

    StarTime Member+

    United States
    Oct 18, 2020
    I’ve been thinking about the penalty Barton awarded yesterday and the scuffle that ensued, as well as similar incidents at the World Cup. This trend of players scuffing up the penalty mark, and then defending players forming a shield around the mark to protect it, is absolutely farcical. I’m starting to think that a yellow card is insufficient punishment for such behavior. Think about it: if it’s 90th minute of the game and you can wreck havoc on the penalty mark to reduce your opponent’s chance of scoring, and all that costs is a yellow card, it seems like a pretty good deal! It’s totally worth it for the defending players to engage in such behavior. Bonus if other teammates help out, too.

    Should the IFAB considering changing the law to deal with this? It reminds me a lot of their reasoning for outlawing attacking players in the wall. What options exist for a law change here? Are there other options besides creating a red card offense for “deliberately damaging the field of play?”
     
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  10. El Rayo Californiano

    Feb 3, 2014
    Which goal did they use for kicks from the mark?
     
  11. StarTime

    StarTime Member+

    United States
    Oct 18, 2020
    The one that had been scuffed up haha
     
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  12. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    If refs won’t give the caution now, what makes you think they’ll give a send off? The tools are all there now, but Rs just aren’t using them. “Stop, here’s your caution.” Player keeps on at all, it’s another one. All leagues have to do is care enough to tell refs to manage it, and tell teams there will be consequences if players do it. Like so many things, it seems leagues think the drama is more important.
     
  13. StarTime

    StarTime Member+

    United States
    Oct 18, 2020
    But refs do give this caution! I see it given every time it happens. The problem is, it’s worth it for the players. Take a yellow card but you get to ruin the opposing kicker’s plant foot on a penalty kick? It’s so worth it!
     
  14. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    Ok. I havent seen it actually given, but have seen many times it should have been. But still, all leagues have to do is care: announce there will be fines and that repeat offenders get docked a standing point. Or if you really want to mess with the LOTG, make it a retake if a PK is missed after a caution for messing with the PM. Or let the kicker move the spot up to a yard in any direction. I would like to see leagues take action and stop the nonsense—all types of nonsense—on PKs.
     
  15. El Rayo Californiano

    Feb 3, 2014
    Referee Kovacs and VAR Martinez Munuera for Flamengo vs Al Hilal.

    Referee Matonte and VAR Gallo for Al Ahly vs Real Madrid.

    Which probably shouldn't surprise folks here.
     
  16. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Leaving Ghorbal for the Final unless Al Ahly pulls the upset.

    And FIFA must be banking on no upsets, because unless you use Barton again, the only alternative is Taylor. And I would suspect there was an understanding or arrangement that Taylor would be back in England for next weekend's fixtures, but I suppose maybe not.
     
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  17. mfw13

    mfw13 Member+

    Jul 19, 2003
    Seattle
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    Agreed.

    Anybody who watches the Sounders on a regular basis knows that they're a pretty mellow team, managed by one of the mellowest managers out there (Brian Schmetzer). You almost never see a Sounders match get testy.
     
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  18. StarTime

    StarTime Member+

    United States
    Oct 18, 2020
    Less than 3 minutes in and the laser pointers are on the referee and the penalty taker.
     
  19. StarTime

    StarTime Member+

    United States
    Oct 18, 2020
    Excellent simulation decision in the 15th minute. I’m surprised by how little protests there are from Flamengo, after a penalty went against them early and now a simulation where they would’ve been expecting one of their own.
     
  20. StarTime

    StarTime Member+

    United States
    Oct 18, 2020
    32’ interesting decision. Hilal defender gets to the ball first and clears the ball, but only a second before the Flamengo attacker and him collide. After touching the ball, the Hilal defender’s studs make glancing contact quite high on the Flamengo attacker. Debatable incident. Certainly not a red card, but perhaps a caution or at least a foul. Replay was only shown once so I have no firm view.
     
  21. StarTime

    StarTime Member+

    United States
    Oct 18, 2020
    Incredible ending to the first half that will surely make the second more challenging than this one has been (some cards so far, but good decisions by Kovacs and overall not a lot of fuss from the teams, quite better behavior than the last time they met at the club World Cup, with Elfath in charge). OFR for a penalty kick for a glancing studs to achilles challenge in the box, Kovacs correctly goes penalty and yellow card, but it’s the defender’s second yellow! So now the favorites are down a goal and down a man heading into the second half, hold on tight everybody.
     
  22. StarTime

    StarTime Member+

    United States
    Oct 18, 2020
    This game shows us what FIFA was missing out on with their leniency approach at the World Cup. Kovacs is showing correct yellow cards quite freely here, and even though all the ones to Flamengo have been correct, I suspect that in Qatar plenty of them would have been omitted. Kovacs is holding his ground and not "negotiating" with Flamengo* - if they want to pick up as many yellows and risk second cautions, he's not going to bail them out.

    *The one critique I have is the two yellows to Al-Hilal: the first one for SPA is expected by everyone because it's cynical, but I don't see many considerations for SPA present. And then the second one was given for a reckless arm to the face, when the replay seemed to show there was actually no contact to the face, a total dive by the Flamengo player. Again, everybody expected it, and not showing it would have made Flamengo more difficult to manage, but it is simply wrong.
     
  23. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Obligatory sending off for a team official after full time. Can't do that.
     
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  24. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #49 MassachusettsRef, Feb 7, 2023
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2023
    https://files.catbox.moe/vzztqu.mp4

    It's a really good intervention here. But on the announcement... I mean, that's probably the best you can hope for right now and what exactly does it provide? It's just announcing the decision before the decision is communicated the normal way. Like saying "penalty and yellow card" and then pointing to the spot and showing a yellow card isn't exactly adding a level of understanding to a wider audience (particularly when, in this case, it's consequently a red card you didn't actually announce). Without an explanation of the call (e.g., "the defender recklessly challenged his opponent by putting his studs into his ankles and I initially did not see this...") it's pointless at best and, for me, detracts from the overall situation.

    This will not hold as is. There's a tiny chance it goes away because explanations in international matches might just be a bridge too far for most referees and FIFA could see this isn't productive. More likely, though, is you're going to get more rigid instruction around what gets announced, where, and when. Level of accompanying dissent and laser pointers will vary.
     
  25. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    By the way... four (five counting team official) red cards in four matches at the CWC. Paging @RedStar91.
     
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