You'd have to ask them(they have an email) They also have seasonal dribbling statistics for Lionel Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo going all the way back to 2004 and of course this is all corroborated by Opta This site has existed for so long Im surprised you haven't heard of it
No, I’m aware of the website—I’d just never seen the “big chances created” portion of it. Maybe they’re getting it straight from OPTA. I’ll have to do some digging to see if I can figure out how to get that data going further back since I’d love to see that info. There’s players like Ozil that I suspect would be really high in earlier years and I’d be curious to see.
This is the problem with comparing a player with a incomplete set of data to a player who's entire career is covered in detail The bigger problem of course is comparing the end product of two players who aren't even tasked with doing the same things on the pitch There's been evidence of this kind of thing for years(and years) Dani Alves: Only Messi (312) & Ronaldo (308 have created more chances from open-play in La Liga since August 2009 than @DaniAlvesD2 (252)— WhoScored.com (@WhoScored) September 2, 2014 People see it but it doesn't register There's a mental block when it comes to appreciating this player Ronaldo provided as many through balls per 90 as iniesta in 2011/12(league+CL) 0.50 per 90 https://www.messivsronaldo.app/detailed-stats/throughballs/ https://www.whoscored.com/Players/9486/History/Andrés-Iniesta In another version of himself He provided 166 crosses in the 2008/09 premier league Mbappe provided 169 crosses over his last 3 seasons in ligue 1 2021/22 2020/21 2019/20 https://www.whoscored.com/Players/300713/History/Kylian-Mbappé But mbappe is a winger like Ronaldo? Or if we use another supposed winger as a reference one who actually played in the same competition as him (albeit in a different time frame) Cristiano Ronaldo 2008/09 Vs Mohammed Salah 2017/18 Ronaldo provided almost twice the amount of crosses almost 3 times the amount of throughballs And twice the amount of tackles Now if we compare this to another wing player who is unanimously perceived as being creative(in his peak) Cristiano Ronaldo 2008/09 PL Vs Eden Hazard 2018/19 https://www.premierleague.com/stats/player-comparison Even with this there is ALOT of missing data for things like forward/backward passes,big chances created etc But its a good source nonetheless His versatility isn't respected and of course mbappe is great and a future Top 20 ATG in the making(he's in my top 100 all time already at 24) But mbappe definitely isn't doing what Ronaldo did before They have similarities and there are also significant differences outside of and including goalscoring Instead his career gpg ratio gets compared to the Gerd mullers and lewandowskis And the sofascore data starting from 2016 or even 2015 is used to generalise his entire career which is just really lazy analysis Not accusing you of doing that in this instance btw but just making a point
I get your point, but this thread isn’t about Ronaldo, and my post was pretty clear that the data only started from 2016 (actually from the 2015-2016 season onwards). I only listed Ronaldo as part of the extra context to help people understand the numbers I provided for the four players this thread is about, and a reader can see that that extra context regarding Ronaldo is only his stats from that specific more recent time period. In any event, I also don’t think people refuse to acknowledge that Ronaldo was a good creator in his earlier years—I see that stated here quite often (including by me).
I’ve not been able to find this data for other leagues, but the EPL website has Big Chances Created stats going back to the 2010-2011 season. And it’s worth noting that, overall in his Premier League matches for Liverpool, Suarez created 0.48 big chances per 90 mins. If we add that data to the data on SofaScore from 2015-2016 onwards, that’d leave Suarez at 0.413 big chances created in the matches we have data for. The main things that that data is missing for Suarez at that point are the 2014-2015 season, his Eredivisie seasons, as well as a few NT tournaments. But my guess is that, if we had numbers for those seasons, they’d probably pull his numbers up, since, between league + CL/Europa/UEFA Cup, Suarez had about 0.4 assists per 90 mins (higher than his career average of 0.32). So my best guess is that full data on Suarez would probably leave him pushing up to around 0.45-0.50 big chances created per 90 mins for his career. But I guess we’ll never know, since big chances created data certainly doesn’t exist for his early years.
I kind of already corrected this in an above post, but just for the sake of clarity, I want to note that it was a mistake for me to label this as starting from mid-2016 onwards. This data starts from the 2015-2016 season, so I should’ve said mid-2015 onwards.
0.50 big chances created over a career is enormous for a forward Also important to state a big chance created can be a two yard pass providing a 1 vs 1 with a goalkeeper or it can be a defence splitting pass The number of big chances helps to create a picture but it certainly isn't the whole thing Number of throughballs/Crosses alongside the number of forward passes(And pass completion rate if possible) is the best way to gauge a players creative abilities Do you have in mind a specific performance wherein Suarez appears to be a world class playmaking forward? One displaying excellent vision and/or a high level of game IQ Something out of the ordinary completely beyond the capabilities of lewandowski for example
I’m sure I could dig up great playmaking performances for Suarez, but I’m not really making an overarching argument regarding Suarez (I didn’t even choose him as my top player amongst these four!). I’m just reporting on the data I found, as it relates to this thread, and was amending the data when I found more about Suarez and then observed that the data that is missing are actually years where he had tons of assists.
That said @carlito86 I agree that we can get more context from looking at throughball and accurate cross statistics, though I don’t necessarily agree that those are a better way to gauge creative abilities than big chances created (even taking into account that easy squared balls can be big chances created). That said, I’ve quickly just gone to WhoScored and looked at these players’ stats per game (not per 90 mins, so bear that in mind for what it’s worth) starting from 2009-2010: Luis Suarez Through Balls per game: 0.2 Crosses per game: 0.3 Zlatan Ibrahimovic Through Balls per game: 0.3 Crosses per game: 0.2 Karim Benzema Through Balls per game: 0.1 Crosses per game: 0.1 Robert Lewandowski Through Balls per game: 0.1 Crosses per game: 0.1 Those measures give a picture in which Suarez and Ibrahimovic are a step above the other two. That said, I think we definitely also need to take into account the big chances created—which has Lewandowski clearly below the other three that are clustered pretty close together (though further data I’ve found on Suarez puts him the highest by a fairly decent margin—but we’re still missing data for everyone). On the missing data point, I do want to note again that the Big Chances Created numbers for Ibrahimovic really do almost entirely just encompass the tail end of his career. And I think that’s probably skewing his big chances created numbers down quite a lot compared to what it’d be if we had full career data. We can see that even just from looking at the WhoScored Through Balls and Crosses data for him, where the years before 2015-2016 (where the Big Chances Created data starts) are actually much higher (as in, at a glance, probably about 2x higher overall). I’ve already noted something somewhat similar for Suarez regarding his Eredivisie years (and the 2014-2015 season) that we don’t have big chances created data for, since he had a good bit higher assist numbers those years than his average. I don’t see nearly as much evidence in the assists, throughballs, or crosses data that the missing years for Benzema would’ve been better than his norm. His assists per 90 mins in those missing years is similar to his career average, and a quick glance at his throughballs and crosses per game stats in the extra years WhoScored has looks fairly similar, though maybe slightly higher on average when we account for him having been a sub a lot in some of those years). Same with Lewandowski. Given all this, my best guess is that if we had full career data on big chances created and took into account other context like through balls and accurate crosses, I think it’s pretty likely that the overall picture would have Suarez and Ibrahimovic a good deal ahead of the other two, with Benzema in 3rd but a good bit ahead of Lewandowski.
Top 20 Highest peak of strikers 2010/11 - 2019/20 Maximum of 2 seasons per player Robert lewandowski 2019/20 Luis Suarez 2013/14 Karim Benzema 2021/22 Zlatan ibrahimovic 2015/16 Robert lewandowski 2020/21 Zlatan ibrahimovic 2011/12 Luis Suarez 2015/16 Gonzalo higuain 2015/16 Harry Kane 2020/21 Radamel falcao 2011/12 Robin van persie 2011/12 Robin van persie 2012/13 Wayne Rooney 2011/12 Harry Kane 2017/18 Sergio aguero 2014/15 Hulk 2010/11 Klaas jan Huntelaar 2011/12 Sergio aguero 2011/12 Antonio di natale 2010/11 Mario Gomez 2011/12
I still think Lewa is overrated because he doesn't have the resources of others. I think the Bayern team inflated him. Peak Suarez on that team would have Peak CR7 numbers For me the three peak season were Luis Suarez 13/14, Ibra 11/12 and Suarez 15/16
I think what’s interesting perhaps about these players is that we’ve seen most of them in their primes both in and outside of teams that had massive talent gaps. Suarez played for Barcelona, but he also played for Liverpool and Atletico Madrid. Ibrahimovic played for PSG and Barcelona, but he also played for several teams that were good but not really top-tier super teams. Lewandowski played for Dortmund, another team that was good but not the same as the very top tier teams. Besides a few really early years at Lyon, Benzema has only really been on Real Madrid, so he’s the one that we didn’t really see in his prime on a bit of a lesser team.* Out of the other three, without having thought about it too much, I think the one that was the best (or at least had the highest peak) outside of a super team was probably Suarez for Liverpool. ___________ * Benzema is a bit of a different case where he played his prime in a great team, but we have seen him as both a second-fiddle on a great team and the star player on a great team. Obviously, those are two very different things—and his numbers have been quite different in those different time periods—but there’s nothing really directly comparable to the others having been the star on teams like Liverpool, Dortmund, AC Milan, etc., unless we looked at his early Lyon years (which I don’t think is fair, since he left when he was 21 years old—though he did play well there).
I'm not sure if Suarez 13/14 were better than Lewandowski 12/13. I were impressed with the performance of Lewandowski against Madrid in the semifinal of 12/13. Suarez failed to score against City (1st) and Chelsea (3rd) at home and away. IIRC Suarez were the player with the most big chances missed in EPL 13/14. There is a very interesting post by @carlito86 about this comparison. Follow the link: https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/has-lewandowski-surpassed-r9.2116738/page-8#post-40179084
Maybe, but Luis Suarez 13/14 was in Liverpool and Ibra 11/12 in Milan Also, I think Lewa doesn't have the resources of the others. Which makes him more dependent on the team. In this case, he was on a superteam that played around him (Offensive plays designed for him, penalty taker, etc.). A situation that others didn't have. (Milan wasn't super team, Psg at the time of Ibra wasn't super team, and Barcelona played for Messi).
Within the context of french domestic football PSG definitely was a superteam in the time of ibrahimovic Which resources do you speak of Assists? Assists aren't an accurate way of gauging a players playmaking ability Lewandowski reached a higher dribbling peak in league football(2013/14)and a higher dribbling peak in champions league football(2019/20) then Suarez ever did for Liverpool or Barcelona The numbers are there Even if you say the Bundesliga is weak and easier to dribble In it still doesn't remove the fact Lewandowski reached a higher dribbling peak in the champions league(and he combined that with 15 goals+5 assists) What are these resources you speak of Forks and knives to eat Giorgio Chiellinis flesh? Probably lewandowski never had those
Just see them at their peak. But in terms of stats you can look at the type of passes (cross, long ball, through balls). best numbers Lewa cross 0.4 lb 1 tb 0.3 (excludes current season that has not ended) Suarez cross 1 lb 2.2 tb 0.5 Ibra cross 0.7 lb 3.9 tb 0.9 And if you look at the average or number of seasons with more long balls or cross, it's same thing. Suarez/Ibra has a lot more resources to use his teammates. Lewa is perhaps the most efficient finisher. But he is more dependent on the team.
https://www.bundesliga.com/en/bunde...rn-munich-strikers-5-secrets-to-success-17975 https://tribuna.com/en/news/fcbarce...ctly-illustrates-barca-humiliation-vs-bayern/
Hahahahaha, that heat map is amazing! I know it’s a result of my team’s humiliation, but I still can’t stop laughing!
Some numbers to help Suarez (his case) 19 big chances created(27 matches) in Europe's top 5 leagues during the 2014 calender year 0.70 big chances created per match So basically the second half of 2013/14 and the first half of 2014/15 https://www.whoscored.com/Articles/...e-Stats-Leaders-You-May-Not-Have-Seen-in-2014 Of course he only scored 1 goal in the first half of la liga 2014/15 https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/lui.../spieler/44352/saison/2014/sort/vorlagen.desc but as we can see here He could still remain useful and arguably impactful even without goals
Some info below regarding number of ESM teams of the month these players made through the end of last season. I did write up some caveats here on what ESM team of the month does and doesn’t tell us, so keep those in mind (https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/i...the-21st-century.2124565/page-4#post-41208087). In parentheses, I include the first and last season they had appearances, and the total number of seasons they had at least one appearance. Number of ESM Team of the Month Appearances 1. Zlatan Ibrahimovic: 22 appearances (10 total seasons; 2006-2007 to 2020-2021) 2. Robert Lewandowski: 21 appearances (6 total seasons; 2012-2013 to 2021-2022) 3. Luis Suarez: 19 appearances (6 total seasons; 2009-2010 to 2020-2021) 4. Karim Benzema: 14 appearances (6 total seasons; 2007-2008 to 2021-2022) Interesting IMO that Ibrahimovic comes out ahead here. And I think it does actually reflect the type of consistent performances that allowed him to win so many league titles (though there’s also a chicken and egg thing here—perhaps he made the most of these teams because his team was winning more).
As I said before, it's a question of legacy (individual and collective awards) vs talent If you follow Lewa at Barcelona lately, he seems to be out of the game when the ball doesn't come. Lewa is an incredible finisher, but his overall game is much lower than the other forwards. Something these pass type stats show well (long ball, throug ball, cross).
Currently I stand at Suarez > Lewandowski > Ibra > Benzema.. HM Kane, Aguero, Higuain in that order Suarez 2014-2016 the highest peak amongst those players. Lewandowski the best goalscorer.