Perfomance at the WC: Maradona `1986 vs Messi 2022?

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by Gregoire1, Dec 20, 2022.

?

Better perfomance

  1. Messi 2022

    8 vote(s)
    13.8%
  2. Maradona 1986

    50 vote(s)
    86.2%
  1. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member+

    Dinamo Zagreb
    Croatia
    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    Maybe better way of looking at it would be to name handful of names for each wc that didnt participate due to being benched, not called or their nation not qualifying for wc..

    The talent nowadays seems sooo much wider when we move from the generational talents. The 250th best player in the world is much better than 40 years ago..

    .. well its very common to group players fo different eras from the past into one category since the percpetion of time is skewed. Past is past. And brain can not properly distingusish between 40 years ago and 48 years ago. Its the one category in the mind... but nobody would say that Diego Costa is one of the best players today even tho he was great merely 8 years ago, yrt it is very common to think of Garrincha in the same breath as Brazils 1970 team.

    Think of how many attackers have recycled through sjnce Diego Costa.
     
  2. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Maybe France 1996 (Euros not World Cup though) is a good place to start, albeit there is the context of Jacquet the coach not wanting to select some players, to change the emphasis of the team, and also maybe because of the bad memory concerning failure to qualify for WC94, and how that happened.

    Cantona. Ginola. Angloma. Vieira (young player though).
     
  3. Isaías Silva Serafim

    Real Madrid
    Brazil
    Dec 2, 2021
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    So you think Garay shouldn't have made these clearances? Wasn't the correct decision to take the ball away from the opponent? Imagine how many goals Argentina would have conceded if Garay hadn't clearanced his opponents 10 times in each game? You know that Argentina weren't the worst team so makes no sense for you to mention it.

    It's interesting you mention that Robben didn't score any goals because Messi didn't score either lol

    At 1st game in groupstage Robben were better than Messi
    At 2nd game in groupstage it were very close but I'll give the edge to Robben because Netherlands don't were so dominant against Australia like Argentina were against Iran
    At 3rd game in groupstage Messi were better
    I think Messi was better (by a thin margin) at round of 16
    In the QF Robben was definitely better
    In SF Messi were better
    In final/3rd place game Robben were better than Messi that were invisible against Germany

    So in overall Robben were better than Messi in 4 games and Messi were better in 3. If we count the most decisive matches (QF, SF, F/3rd place) Robben were better in 2 and Messi in 1. So overall Robben did a better WC than Messi
     
    Doc_Exec repped this.
  4. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member+

    Dinamo Zagreb
    Croatia
    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    One more point on defenders. The great ball playing defenders would likely be mdifielders or fullbacks in todays time..

    So the lack of such type of defenders is not lack of talent from defenders but selecting defenders for different traits due to tactical reasons.
     
  5. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member+

    Dinamo Zagreb
    Croatia
    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    He could have taken a ball from an opponent and rather than desperately shot it into stands, make a good pass to his teammate and keep possesion. That doesnt register as clearence yet it is 10x more difficult and valuable play.
     
  6. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member+

    Dinamo Zagreb
    Croatia
    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    Why are you comparing games in a chronological order as if there is any reason to do so?

    Not to say I agree with evaluation at all
     
  7. Isaías Silva Serafim

    Real Madrid
    Brazil
    Dec 2, 2021
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Not necessarily. Sometimes the CB makes a lot more clearances than tackles because he uses his anticipation to intercept the ball before it can reach its target. Anticipation is what makes the CB a proactive defender, not a reactive one. Since Garay uses a proactive approach and not a reactive one, this is why he doesn't go for tackles too much.
    "If I've to go for a tackle, then I've already made a mistake" - Paolo Maldini

    This is much better than count total dribbles and Key passes and goals and assists like you did since a player can stat padding these stats against weaker opponents
     
  8. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member+

    Dinamo Zagreb
    Croatia
    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    How does one stat pad key passes?

    And I am not saying defenders stat pad clearences.
     
  9. SayWhatIWant

    SayWhatIWant Member+

    Jan 10, 2015
    I listed 4 to 5 publications per match that were in general agreement as to the best performers in the matches. It is obvious that all are in agreement that Messi was muted with an especially poor performance vs. Netherlands. He had a great game vs Switzerland and he got a high grade for it and seems to be the highest rated for that match all things considered. There is no grand conspiracy against Messi. To suggest that all publications are unfair to Messi is ludicrous. I encourage you to watch the matches again and you will see.
     
  10. Praasen

    Praasen Member

    Mohun bagan
    Argentina
    Jan 8, 2023
    Firstly I would tend to disagree on comparison between the final and a third place match.i will never do that. Next messi was facing a far stronger side on form compared to Robben who was playing a side that was in no condition to recover from a 7 goal drubbing at the hands of Germany.
     
  11. Praasen

    Praasen Member

    Mohun bagan
    Argentina
    Jan 8, 2023
    Messi didn't play very well in the last 3 matches of course but one thing's definitely true that he was marked more heavily compared to 2022 as that Argentina was clearly less potent in their attack, heavily depended on Messi for either. scoring or creation of goals.
     
  12. SayWhatIWant

    SayWhatIWant Member+

    Jan 10, 2015
    Well I agree that 2014 was a more challenging run - their opponents are significantly tougher : peak Belgium, peak / near peak Netherlands, peak Germany. These were a series of difficult matches. The 2014 squad though had much more offensive quality than 2022, but the 2022 squad was set up in a less conservative style, played rougher (that's a good thing, not criticism), and played weaker opponents at every stage and benefitted from penalties. I prefer the 2022 run because there was more heart and Messi had that breathtaking assist, but 2014 is considerably harder.
     
  13. Isaías Silva Serafim

    Real Madrid
    Brazil
    Dec 2, 2021
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Did you understand what you read? The thing about stat padding was about the comparison between Robben and Messi. And yes, it's much easier for you to make the last pass before the shot against weaker defenders.

    The thing about statpadding has nothing to do with what I said about defenders. I explained why Garay has so many more clearances than tackles.

    Your answer and even the part you put in bold is extremely embarrassing for you. It shows that you didn't understand anything I said.
     
  14. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member+

    Dinamo Zagreb
    Croatia
    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    There is no grand consipracy against Messi

    But anyone who is behind the ratings for those games is a human being who knows who Messi is and has its own perception (perhaps agenda) on what has happened. There are not immune to holding Messi to different standards.

    You are selecting few sources that confirm your point and making it a holly grail.

    Messi was the highest rated attacking player in the game, both sides, by sofascore with 7.5 rating. Whoscored gave him 9+ for the same match.

    So to say something is written in the stone because publications said so is not enough.

    And again, Messi doesnt have to be not muted last 3 games to desevedly win golden ball without controversy.

    The other candidate for the golden ball was Robben who was even worse in the same match you criticize Messi for and make a huge argument for him not deserving the golden ball.
     
  15. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member+

    Dinamo Zagreb
    Croatia
    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    Because i dont udnerstand you. I tried tho

    There is hardly ever stat padding in wc. Virtually every moment matters. Lessthanjack tlaked about it
     
  16. Isaías Silva Serafim

    Real Madrid
    Brazil
    Dec 2, 2021
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    I agree that Germany was stronger than Brazil. But Brazil would not have reached the semifinals if they were weak. It was a very talented cast. They even dominated possession against the Netherlands. Besides, the fact that Germany are stronger doesn't change the fact that Messi was completely invisible in the final. Which makes any minimally good performance by Robben, even against a team weaker than Germany, better than Messi's in the final
     
  17. Isaías Silva Serafim

    Real Madrid
    Brazil
    Dec 2, 2021
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    You said Garay should have made a tackle instead of a clearance. Then I explained that Garay opted for clearances because he was a proactive (not reactive) CB using his anticipation to prevent the ball from hitting it's target rather than waiting for the forward to arrive in possession of the ball so that he can make the tackle, which is much more dangerous and susceptible to errors. Do you understand this part? Ok, let's go to the thing about statpadding.

    I had said that Robben had a better cup than Messi in 2014. So you compared the total numbers of dribbles, Key passing, goals and assists. Then I made an analysis game by game from both and you asked why I did it. Then I answered that this makes much more sense to analyse this way than compare total numbers in the tournament because they can have a higher number of these stats against a weaker opponent. If you don't understand now, I don't think there's a better way to explain it than that.
     
  18. lessthanjake

    lessthanjake Member+

    May 9, 2015
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    #943 lessthanjake, Feb 2, 2023
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2023
    I think the reality is this: Robben was very good and would’ve very likely won the Golden Ball if the Netherlands had made the finals instead of Argentina (assuming nothing too crazy happened in the Netherlands vs. Germany final), which of course easily could’ve happened since that SF went to a penalty shootout. But that didn’t happen, and making the finals weighs very heavily, so it was quite logical and expected for Messi to win over Robben. As for a defender or DM for Argentina winning (probably Mascherano, as he was the best of the bunch), I suppose one could make an argument for that in theory (since Argentina was quite strong in defense), but defenders/DM’s don’t ever win. They’re just generally not particularly serious contenders for the award. You can see that by no Argentine defender even making the podium that year, and indeed only two defenders making the podium ever (with one of them—Thuram—having his podium finish actually be to a significant extent about having *scored* two semifinal goals). And I actually think there’s good reason for that—defending is a team effort much more than attacking is (mostly because, on attack, one person has the ball), so individual impact is naturally lower. But regardless of whether you agree or disagree that this should be the case, an argument that an Argentina defender should’ve won just isn’t particularly realistic. The actual other realistic option beyond Robben was Thomas Muller, but there was a strong sense that Germany did not really have a particular standout player, and Muller didn’t distinguish himself in the finals. In theory, Neuer had a shout for it (GKs have gotten it before), but you really have to stand out as a GK to win and he didn’t quite do that (and there’s another award for him anyways).

    Ultimately, the award went to the one player who was both a finalist and his team’s standout attacking player in the tournament as a whole. And that’s virtually always how the award works, so I don’t think it’s particularly surprising that Messi won. Of course, Messi didn’t stand out as much as he did in WC 2022, so there’s more room to argue that maybe other people should’ve won instead. But there being room to argue others should’ve won isn’t the same as Messi not being the pretty obvious choice all things considered. If there’s a finalist who was his team’s standout attacking player, that player is almost certainly going to win the award (unless, of course, the other finalist team has such a player as well, in which case only one of them can win).
     
  19. PrimoCalcio

    PrimoCalcio Member

    Milan/Napoli
    Italy
    Oct 14, 2019
    Just mentioning Zidane won the official Golden Ball at WC2006, and Cannavaro Silver Ball.
     
    SayWhatIWant and Sexy Beast repped this.
  20. Praasen

    Praasen Member

    Mohun bagan
    Argentina
    Jan 8, 2023
    Brazil were completely annihilated in their home ground by germany and their confidence and desire to play and win a 3rd place match must have reached its nadir.they were without Neymar and skipper Thiago Silva and I suppose any decent world cup side would've beaten them at that particular time in a rather inconsequential match. I haven't said they were weak at the first place but going by your 'reaching semi final' logic Croatia in 2022 too should be considered a strong opponent. After all they were runner up last time and beat Brazil in QF this time.
     
  21. Praasen

    Praasen Member

    Mohun bagan
    Argentina
    Jan 8, 2023
    Muller and kroos I guess were decent contenders.
     
  22. lessthanjake

    lessthanjake Member+

    May 9, 2015
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    @PDG1978, I think there’s a lot of objective facts—which of course you don’t deny exist—that logically lead to a conclusion that I’m right about the general number of great players being higher now. But I realize that you’re never going to agree about that conclusion, and so I want to move past that discussion for now. The reason I was making that point here was simply to say that I think it may make the most sense to compare WC performances by era. And that’s of course something you can do even if you don’t agree with the underlying reason why I’m suggesting we should do that. So, on that note, I have a couple relevant questions:

    - What (if any) post-1986 WC performances do you think were better than Messi’s WC 2022 performance?

    - What (if any) WC performances during the course of Messi’s own playing career (i.e. WC 2006 onwards) do you think were better than Messi’s WC 2022 performance?

    I have a sense of what your answers to that might be, based on the ranking of WC performances you gave before, but I’m not entirely sure, and I think these questions could spawn interesting discussion.
     
  23. PrimoCalcio

    PrimoCalcio Member

    Milan/Napoli
    Italy
    Oct 14, 2019
    How is it "undeniable" that the growing world population, and therefore greater number of competitors in world football, means we shouldn't expect to have a great or decisive performance in 1 out of his first 5 NT finals? Or even score, assist, or be MOTM once over those first 5 finals? Did the population boom in India cause Messi to play below his level in 5 straight finals? These are not ridiculous standards for a great player. Pele consistently performed well in all his NT finals while Messi didn't because of population increases?
     
    SayWhatIWant repped this.
  24. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member+

    Dinamo Zagreb
    Croatia
    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    I said that clearences are not necessarily good and they heavily depend on the style of play your team insists on therefore, the stat i all over the place amongst defenders and shows virtually zero correlarion with quality of ones performance.

    The other part i have no comments on messi 14 anymore.
     
  25. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #950 carlito86, Feb 2, 2023
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2023
    Robben vs Spain 2014 is the best individual world cup performance this century IMO

    This is just devastating


    I remember Neymar had a very good performance against them the year prior(2013) but robben just made them look like Luxembourg

    For me as a viewer I was more impressed by Holland's destruction of Spain then I was of Germany's demolition job on Brazil

    A neymar less Brazil were never going to beat that Germany team in the first place
    The only question was how many goals would they concede
    Perhaps The manner of defeat was shocking,being on home ground etc

    Spain however were a real heavyweight and winner of the previous 3 tournaments which was something unprecedented


    None of the all time greats had a comparable performance against a comparable team at international level

    I looked at Cruyffs stats against top 10 ELO teams in world cup 1974

    East Germany(10th)
    0 goals+0 assists
    0 dribbles completed
    6 key passes

    Brazil(3rd)
    1 goal+1 assist
    1 dribble
    2 key passes


    West Germany(1st)
    0 goals+0 assists
    3 dribbles
    2 key passes


    Against teams in the top 10 namely east Germany,west Germany and Brazil he completed

    4 dribbles in 3 matches at a rate of 1.33 per 90

    scored
    1 goal+1 assist in 3 matches at a rate of 0.67 per 90


    Provided
    10 key passes in 3 matches at a rate of 3.3 per 90



    Arjen robben 2014 vs top 10 ELO teams

    Vs Spain(8th)
    2 goals
    4 dribbles
    2 key passes



    Vs Chile(7th)
    0 goals+1 assist
    4 dribbles
    3 key passes

    Vs Argentina(2nd)
    0 goals+0 assists
    4 dribbles
    0 key passes



    Vs Brazil(3rd)
    0 goals+0 assists
    5 dribbles
    2 key passes


    Against teams in the top 10 Arjen robben produced

    2 goals+1 assist in 4 matches at a rate of 0.75 per 90

    17 dribbles in 4 matches at a rate of 4.25 per 90

    7 key passes at a rate of 1.75 per 90



    https://www.sofascore.com/player/arjen-robben/30037

    In conclusion Arjen Robben 2014 was very arguably better than Cruyff 1974 against big teams

    Not to mention Holland 1974 was a better team then in 2014 in every conceivable way

    There is a conversation that probably nobody wants to have (mainly because older players are really mythologised here)

    88% of cruyffs total dribbles (30 out of 34) in WC 74 came against teams outside the top 10
    11% of cruyffs total dribbles(4 out of 34) came against teams ranked in the top 10


    50% of Robbens total dribbles(17 out of 34) in world cup 2014 came against teams ranked in the top 10
    50% of Robbens total dribbles(17 out of 34) came against teams ranked outside the top 10



    0% of cruyffs total goals(0 out of 3) came against teams ranked inside the top 10
    100% of Cruyffs total goals(3 out of 3) came against teams ranked outside the top 10


    67% of Robbens total goals(2 out of 3) came against teams ranked in the top 10
    33% of Robbens total goals(1 out 3) came against teams ranked outside the top 10


    10 out of Johan Cruyffs 34 total key passes came against teams in the top 10
    29%

    24 out of Johan Cruyffs 34 total key passes came against teams ranked outside the top 10
    74%


    7 of Arjen robbens 17 key passes came against teams ranked in the top 10
    41%

    10 of Arjen robbens key passes came against teams ranked outside the top 10
    59%



    On further reflection Cruyff 1974 is probably one of the greatest examples of statpadding statistics in world cup history


    Briefly Regarding Messi
    He was a legitimate candidate for the 2014 world cup golden ball and only one person can win it

    A legitimate candidate is also deserving one
    No one was clearly a level above

    The one who reaches the final is the player who usually collects the award and that is the way things have always been done.

    However It is also true that someone who exits the tournament at the QF juncture can also be deserving tournament MVP
    This is where I disagree with sexybeast

    James was a deserving winner and Messi was a deserving winner
    Id say Robben aswell but there is no bad option out of these names
     
    Isaías Silva Serafim repped this.

Share This Page