British Football Best XIs (1863-1939)

Discussion in 'Players & Legends' started by CristianoPuskas, Jan 29, 2023.

  1. CristianoPuskas

    Manchester United
    Portugal
    May 27, 2021
    First, It is good to mention that British Superiority was widely accepted by experts and specialists all over the world, at least until 1939. Until the beginning of World-War I, British football, mainly England and Scotland were far superior of everyone else in the top tier of the world, the quality of players were outstanding, the game was based on artistic, cerebral, and dynamic game. It said that top aces of British football supposedly played during the pre-World War I. era, names like Ernest Needham, Jimmy Crabtree, Steve Bloomer, Bobby Walker, Gilbert Oswald Smith, Billy Meredith, Nick Ross, were some of players that was often mentioned as "the best of all time" even decades after their retirement.
    Some important event to note that when the 2nd English division team Tottenham Hotspurs beat the Uruguayan League XI 8-0 in 1909.

    After the World-War I, however, British football saw a massive decline, especially England. The perspective of the game changed. It was no longer an entertainment for the fans to witnessing the footballing artists show their masterpieces with the ball, but rather as just a game with 22 players chasing the ball for one purpose: score a goal. Furthermore, English teams, fell to the point that even continental and South American teams matched their levels in friendlies, until they rose again in 1930s.

    However, continental experts such as Hugo Meisl, always believe that England was still the team to beat for every team in the worlds. You beat England then you beat the King of Football. In 1933, Meisl stated that English footballer was still the best in the world as whole - with the Vienna XI' 2-4 lost against Arsenal in December 1933 strengthen that statement.
     
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  2. CristianoPuskas

    Manchester United
    Portugal
    May 27, 2021
    #2 CristianoPuskas, Jan 29, 2023
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2023
    WhatsApp Image 2023-01-21 at 20.09.28.jpeg

    A. Foster - January 1938

    *from right to left*
    Sam Hardy

    Bob Crompton
    Jesse Pennington

    Ernest Needham
    Billy Wedlock
    Andy Aitken

    Billy Meredith
    Steve Bloomer
    Gilbert Oswald Smith
    Alex James
    Cliff Bastin
     
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  3. CristianoPuskas

    Manchester United
    Portugal
    May 27, 2021
    WhatsApp Image 2023-01-29 at 23.57.58.jpeg

    BEST EVER ELEVEN - By Billy Meredith, Bill Gillespie, Andy Wilson, Jimmy Seed, and Fred Keenor - 1927

    *Billy Meredith's XI* :

    Jack Hillman

    Bob Crompton
    Nick Ross

    Jimmy Gordon
    Charlie Roberts
    Peter McWilliam

    Billy Bassett
    Steve Bloomer
    Jimmy Quinn
    Jimmy McMenemy
    Ted Vizard

    *
    Billy Gillespie's XI* :

    Elisha Scott

    Roy Goodall
    Alex Finney

    David Meiklejohn
    Frank Barson
    Jimmy McMullan

    Joe Hulme
    Bobby McKay
    Dixie Dean
    Bob McPhail
    Alan Morton


    *Andy Wilson's XI*

    Sam Hardy

    Alec McNair
    Jesse Pennington

    Jack Gordon
    Andy Jackson
    Peter Nellies

    Bobby Templeton
    Bobby Walker
    Robert Smyth McColl
    Jimmy McMenemy
    Alan Morton

    *Jimmy Seed's XI*

    Sam Hardy

    Bob Crompton
    Jesse Pennington

    Francis Cuggy
    Charlie Roberts
    Arthur Grimsdell

    Jackie Mordue
    Charlie Buchan
    Dixie Dean
    Cairns (?)
    Alan Morton

    *
    Fred Keenor's XI*

    Ted Taylor

    Nelson (?)

    Willie McStay

    Willis Edwards
    Tom Wilson
    Billy Hardy

    Billy Meredith
    David Jack
    Hughie Gallacher
    Clem Stephenson
    Alan Morton
     
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  4. CristianoPuskas

    Manchester United
    Portugal
    May 27, 2021
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  5. CristianoPuskas

    Manchester United
    Portugal
    May 27, 2021
    https://arfsh.com/article?id=531
    Louis T. Kelly's Best ever team - 1936

    Sam Hardy

    Bob Crompton
    Nick Ross

    Jimmy Crabtree
    Alex Raisbeck
    Ernest Needham

    Billy Meredith
    Steve Bloomer
    Dixie Dean
    Alex James
    Alan Morton

    https://arfsh.com/article?id=544
    The Corinthian's Best ever XI - 1931

    Sam Hardy

    Bob Crompton
    James Sharp

    Peter Dowds
    Charlie Roberts
    Jimmy Crabtree

    Jack Simpson
    Steve Bloomer
    Robert Smyth McColl
    Alex James
    Alan Morton
     
  6. CristianoPuskas

    Manchester United
    Portugal
    May 27, 2021
  7. CristianoPuskas

    Manchester United
    Portugal
    May 27, 2021
    IMG_20230130_064539.jpg

    The Finest Team of All-time - Leslie Knighton, 1946

    Harry Hibbs

    Bob Crompton
    Eddie Hapgood

    Willis Edwards
    Stanley Cullis
    Arthur Grimsdell

    Billy Meredith/Jack Simpson
    Charlie Buchan
    Gilbert Oswald Smith
    Billy Walker
    Cliff Bastin
     
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  8. CristianoPuskas

    Manchester United
    Portugal
    May 27, 2021
    20221130_011942.jpg

    Steve Bloomer's Best XI

    Sam Hardy

    Bob Crompton
    Jimmy Crabtree

    Ben Warren
    Alex Raisbeck
    Ernest Needham

    Billy Meredith
    Bobby Walker
    John Goodall
    Edgar Chadwick
    Fred Spiksley


     
  9. CristianoPuskas

    Manchester United
    Portugal
    May 27, 2021
    IMG_20230130_125225.jpg

    The Nottingham Evening Post - 01/11/1935

    *First Team*

    Jimmy Trainer

    Bob Crompton
    Nick Ross

    George Howarth
    Joe McCall
    Ernest Needham

    Jack Simpson
    Steve Bloomer
    Vivian Woodward
    Alex James
    Fred Spiksley

    *Second Team*

    John Willie Sutcliffe

    Walter Arnott
    Jimmy Crabtree

    Neil Gibson
    Alex Raisbeck
    Jimmy Forrest

    Billy Bassett
    Bobby Walker
    Gilbert Oswald Smith
    Edgar Chadwick/Grenville Morris
    William Townley

    "The striking thing about this species of examination is that James is the only man of present age whose claim to virtuosity is really acclaimed"
     
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  10. CristianoPuskas

    Manchester United
    Portugal
    May 27, 2021

    Another interesting point that, later in the final paragraph, he admitted that some old giants might not to-day measure up to their standart, at least, in the same way...
     
  11. CristianoPuskas

    Manchester United
    Portugal
    May 27, 2021
    IMG_20230130_131359.jpg

    Harry Hampton - Best ever team (21/10/1961)

    "Joe Bache was the finest inside-forward I ever Saw"

    Sam Hardy

    Howard Spencer
    Jesse Pennington

    Ben Warren
    Charlie Roberts
    Collin Veitch

    Billy Meredith
    Steve Bloomer
    Albert Shepherd
    Joe Bache
    Ted Vizard
     
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  12. CristianoPuskas

    Manchester United
    Portugal
    May 27, 2021
    IMG_20230130_133029.jpg

    Ireland's Saturday Night - Best Ever Team (04/05/1940)

    Elisha Scott

    John Maconnachie
    Jesse Pennington

    Willis Edwards
    Mick Hamill
    Jimmy Hay

    Billy Meredith
    Charlie Buchan
    Jimmy Quinn
    Peter Doherty
    Marshall McEwan

    *some great players*

    Walter Scott

    Billy McCracken, Bob Crompton

    Collin Veitch, Charles Thomson, Billy Wedlock, Evelyn Lintott

    Dickie Bond, Alex Jackson, Hogg (?), Stanley Matthews, David Jack, Steve Bloomer, Patsy Gallacher, Vivian Woodward, Hughie Gallacher, Alex James, Alan Morton
     
  13. CristianoPuskas

    Manchester United
    Portugal
    May 27, 2021
    https://arfsh.com/article?id=233

    Watchman - Eleven to beat the World (1931)

    Jimmy Trainer

    Nick Ross
    Donald Gow

    Frank Forman
    Alex Raisbeck
    Jimmy Crabtree

    Billy Meredith
    Steve Bloomer
    John Goodall
    Grenville Morris
    Bobby Templeton
     
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  14. CristianoPuskas

    Manchester United
    Portugal
    May 27, 2021
    Finest team 1952.png

    Another Steve Bloomer's best XI - quite different from the one i posted earlier. Still interesting, though

    Jack Robinson

    Howard Spencer
    Billy Williams

    Ben Warren
    Alex Raisbeck
    Ernest Needham

    Billy Meredith
    Bobby Walker
    Gilbert Oswald Smith
    Joe Bache
    Fred Spiksley
     
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  15. CristianoPuskas

    Manchester United
    Portugal
    May 27, 2021
    WhatsApp Image 2023-01-30 at 17.54.40.jpeg

    Robert Blyth - Best Ever Team (1928)

    Peter McBride

    Bob Crompton
    Jesse Pennington

    Hughie Wilson
    Alex Raisbeck
    Jimmy Crabtree

    Bobby Templeton
    Bobby Walker
    Gilbert Oswald Smith
    Sandy MacMahon
    Alex Smith
     
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  16. CristianoPuskas

    Manchester United
    Portugal
    May 27, 2021
    IMG_20230130_185516.jpg

    A Manchester correspondent - (27/11/1926)

    *Pre-World War I.*

    Jimmy Trainer / John Willie Sutcliffe

    Howard Spencer
    Jimmy Crabtree

    Andy Aitken
    Alex Raisbeck
    Ernest Needham

    Billy Meredith
    Steve Bloomer
    Robert Smyth McColl
    Fred Wheldon
    Fred Spiksley

    *Post-World War I.*

    Ted Taylor

    Alex McNair
    Sam Wadsworth

    Neil Gibson
    Joe McCall / Frank Barson
    Arthur Grimsdell

    Alex Jackson
    Charlie Buchan
    Hughie Gallacher
    Alex James
    Alan Morton

    "but I think we just admit that the pre-war eleven is 'some' team, and probably would be voted a better side than any that could be selected to-day"
     
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  17. peterhrt

    peterhrt Member+

    Oct 21, 2015
    Club:
    Leeds United AFC
    #17 peterhrt, Jan 30, 2023
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2023
    A lot of valuable material here thank you. Enough to prompt a re-think of the relative standing of pre-WW1 players. Although most of the teams were chosen during the 1920s and 1930s, it is clear that their focus was on the period up to 1914.

    The most striking observation is the lack of consensus around who the best players were. Excluding the purely post-war selection, one 2nd XI and Bloomer's second, verbal, effort, there are 17 all-time teams here. With more than sixty pre-war nominations, only three men appear in half the teams: Crompton (10), Bloomer (9) and Meredith (9). Bloomer and Meredith didn't pick themselves.

    Six different players from this era were at one stage described as the greatest of all time: Arnott, Cobbold, Nick Ross, GO Smith, Needham and Crabtree. Yet Arnott and Cobbold do not appear in a single all-time eleven. This could be because some writers' experience did not go back that far. There are no inclusions before 1880.

    Based on these teams a pre-1914 eleven would look like this (number of inclusions in brackets): Hardy (8) - Crompton (10), Pennington (7) - Crabtree (6), Raisbeck (5), Needham (6) - Meredith (9), Bloomer (9), GO Smith (3), McMenemy (2), Spiksley (4). In those days players did not get picked outside their normal positions. There are two tie-breaks. Raisbeck beats Roberts on one 2nd XI inclusion, and Smith is preferred to McColl for the same reason and also because he received nominations for greatest-ever footballer.

    When the scope is widened to footballers from the inter-war period, there are only two changes to the combined best XI, James (4 out of 6 possible inclusions) and Morton (6 out of 14) coming in at inside-left and outside-left. Arguably Dean ought also to be centre-forward since his three inclusions were out of a possible twelve.

    Players from the 1920s and 1930s at one time named the greatest-ever were Buchan, Hugh Gallacher and James. No fewer than eight judges reckoned Alex James was the best footballer they ever saw. This is the only instance where there is a strong consensus.
     
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  18. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Yeah, it does seem like inside rights being picked there and inside lefts picked as such too. On number of picks as an inside forward I guess Bobby Walker would take a place ahead of McMenemy (but then James would get in anyway afterwards), but I don't know whether he only ever played as inside right and/or tended much more to the right hand side of the pitch.

    Some interesting comments cited on Walker's Wikipedia page I see (whether the Football Encyclopedia one is applicable as a call for best ever player I'm not quite sure):
    Bobby Walker (footballer, born 1879) - Wikipedia

    Billy Walker on the other hand is being regarded as an inside left, but yeah it looks like players are assigned to one of those positions rather than being available for either I think doesn't it? I know that Grenville Morris did have a nickname 'Prince of the Inside Lefts' at one point. I don't know whether some of the candidates did switch between those positions a bit though in their careers (I'd have thought it wouldn't be particularly unlikely).
     
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  19. CristianoPuskas

    Manchester United
    Portugal
    May 27, 2021
    W. N. Cobbold, Vivian Woodward, Gilbert Oswald Smith were considered amateur players, so that explain why sometimes they were not chosen
     
  20. CristianoPuskas

    Manchester United
    Portugal
    May 27, 2021
    MY TWO BEST TEAMS
    James Mason, 25/10/1930

    https://arfsh.com/article?id=554

    - First Team -

    Jimmy Trainer

    Nick Ross
    Walter Arnott

    Jimmy Crabtree
    Alex Raisbeck
    Ernest Needham

    Billy Meredith
    Steve Bloomer
    John Goodall
    Dennis Hodgetts
    Fred Spiksley

    - Second Team -

    John Willie Sutcliffe

    Howard Spencer
    Herbert Burgess

    Frank Forman
    Charlie Roberts
    Peter McWilliam

    Billy Bassett
    Bobby Walker
    Jimmy Quinn
    Grenville Morris
    Bobby Templeton
     
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  21. peterhrt

    peterhrt Member+

    Oct 21, 2015
    Club:
    Leeds United AFC
    The Bobby Walker citation is valid thanks. Meredith also once said Walker was the greatest footballer, but since he left him out of his all-time XI I ignored it.

    Meredith also placed Walker first for versatility. This seems to have referred to the various things he could do with the ball, rather than his position on the field. It seems Walker virtually always played inside-right.
     
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  22. peterhrt

    peterhrt Member+

    Oct 21, 2015
    Club:
    Leeds United AFC
    It may well have been a factor. Cobbold was active before the league started.

    Woodward's international goalscoring record was inflated by a lot of goals in one-sided contests.
     
  23. Lasha the Idiotic

    FC Barcelona
    Georgia
    Jul 19, 2021
    Here’s something I find very interesting: For the pre-WWI players, only 2 out of the 6 players named as the greatest are attacking-minded (GO Smith, Cobbold), whilst the other 4 (Arnott, Nick Ross, Needham and Crabtree) are all Half-Backs and Full-Backs. When we look at the players of the post-war that had been named as such, we see that all 3 (Buchan, Hughie Gallacher, and Alex James) are all attackers, and this is really the way great players are ranked till this day. I wonder if there’s something interesting here.
     
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  24. peterhrt

    peterhrt Member+

    Oct 21, 2015
    Club:
    Leeds United AFC
    Good point.

    Around the turn of the twentieth century, the half-back line was considered the most important part of the team, acting as both first line of defence and a link to the forwards. Aston Villa's successful spell during the 1890s owed much to their half-back line of Reynolds, Cowan and Crabtree. Scotland's middle three of Aitken, Raisbeck and Robertson was also influential.

    Some full-backs were just bulky physical stoppers. But those who used the ball well could dictate the play. Arnott was noted for his class and elegance while Ross spent a season at centre-forward for Preston and finished the league's joint leading goalscorer.
     
  25. Isaque Argolo

    Isaque Argolo Member

    None
    Oct 15, 2017
    Brazil
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Great to see that the articles are helping with the post.

    I will give my own XI regarding the era: Hardy — Crompton, N. Ross — Crabtree, Raisbeck, Needham — Meredith, Bloomer, G.O. Smith, James, Morton.
     
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