It is absolutely an outdated argument when we realize that virtually no one has been absolutely legendary in more than one NT tournament. You’re basically saying “Yeah, he was legendary in WC 2022, but he wasn’t quite legendary before that,” without acknowledging the fact that virtually no one has been absolutely legendary more than once. You’re plainly holding Messi to a standard that other players haven’t met and then using Messi failing to meet that standard as evidence that those other players were better than him. And Messi has been a “match-winner” enough to have won two major NT tournaments and have made the finals of four others—more match winning than virtually any other player has had for their NT. I’d also just reiterate that this idea that you need goals or assists to have been truly great is nonsense and is not even remotely consistent with arguments you’ve elsewhere made. For instance, you insisted that Luka Modric was the world’s best performing player in 2018, but Luka Modric had barely any goals or assists that year. How can someone have been the best performing player in the world without almost any goals or assists, if the expectation of “the game’s best players” is that they directly win matches with goals and/or assists? It makes no sense whatsoever, and this inconsistency lays bare the fact that you apply completely inconsistent standards in order to further your agenda. Messi also outperformed his xG in WC 2022, while Maradona underperformed his xG in WC 1990. What’s your point? Also, as a factual matter, it’s not even generally true that “the best players” are legendary because they outperform xG. That’s actually one of the really interesting lessons of xG analysis. Of course, Messi actually does generally outperform xG (by more than virtually anyone else, but still not by a lot, because no one outperforms by a lot), and, without having xG data for all of his NT tournaments, I think it is very likely true that he hasn’t done so for Argentina at major NT tournaments.* But luckily for Messi, his greatness isn’t even close to just being based on his ability to outperform xG, and he’s been really great for Argentina in other ways, as evidenced by having gotten more player of the tournament awards for Argentina than any player in history has ever gotten for their NT. _______________________________ * Without having thought too much about this, my guess is that Messi not outperforming xG for Argentina is probably mostly a consequence of a different distribution of shots. A much higher percent of his shots for Argentina are from outside the box (largely a consequence of generally playing a deeper role in a team with a lesser talent gap). And, even though he’s certainly quite proficient at outside-the-box shots, I suspect his unique ability to outperform xG is largely based on outperforming xG with in-the-box shots. Indeed, he’s had to take a higher percent of outside-the-box shots at PSG too, and hasn’t outperformed xG there either. Admittedly, though, this theory isn’t quite consistent with him outperforming his xG in his latter years at Barcelona—where he was similarly stuck taking lots of outside the box shots.
SayWhatIWant is going to tell you that Messi struggles in the Champions League. He and I have been around and around about this, but the bottom line is that this is a poster who believes that Messi did not play well if he did not score.
When Barcelona had superiority, Messi was dominant. When the trend reversed, he became absent in later years.
As I said, we are talking about a player with otherworldly precision with his passing, arguably the best dribbler in the sport, and arguably the best finisher in the sport (at least if you define it based on your definition on the matter). He is also the player around whom the attacking sequence is built around on - a guy who scored 90 plus goals in a calendar year. If he did not apply or demonstrate this ability when his team most needed it, it is more often than not a failure. He is a de facto match-winner. Lastly, you strongly overstate Messi's role in the construction of play - the way you speak about him you would think he is Xavi when he is not scoring.
Yes, because Iniesta was not the main playmaker for the team while Xavi was there. But these guys make it sound like he was the engine of play for Argentina / Barcelona whenever he scored (or didn't score). I challenge anybody to find a knockout performance of this level against a comparatively high caliber opponent: This idea that keeps being repeated that Messi is as participatory and impactful in the construction of play is preposterous.
You’re refusing to engage with the point. I’ll make it very simply so that you can’t possibly miss it: Messi has a truly legendary NT tournament. You are trying to diminish Messi for not having more than one truly legendary tournament. But virtually no one else has more than one legendary tournament. So you are trying to say Messi isn’t one of the greatest NT players ever because he didn’t do something that almost no one has done. It’s a self-evidently illogical argument, and you repeatedly fail to address that. I think you’ll find that Messi was an absolute match-winner in a boatload of NT games—including in knockout stages of major tournaments. For instance, in the QFs and SFs of CA 2015, CA 2016, and CA 2021, Messi had 3 goals and 10 assists in 6 matches (2.17 goals + assists per match!). I was at one of those games in person, and he was completely outrageous (you can say it was mostly against relatively weak opponents, but they’re still big moments that his team needed to win—and, in a knockout-stage environment, could certainly lose—and he was a complete monster again and again). He created the extra-time winner against Switzerland in the 2014 WC. He was a match-winner against Australia, the Netherlands, Croatia, and France in WC 2022. He basically saved Argentina’s WC 2022 in the group stage with a decisive strike against Mexico. Saved Argentina in the WC 2018 group stages, with a fantastic match against Nigeria (not to mention having heroically saved Argentina in WC 2018 qualifying with a hat trick in the final qualifying match to get them to the WC). Was decisive in every match of the WC 2014 group stages. There are more examples. And those aren’t even including matches where he was decisive but his team lost anyways. For instance, they lost in the 2011 CA quarterfinals, despite a beautiful assist from Messi. They lost to France in WC 2018, despite two assists from Messi (one of which was absolutely gorgeous). Messi should’ve been decisive in the CA 2015 finals, but Higuain missed an *actual* point-blank shot at the end of regular time that was largely created by Messi. Messi was utterly decisive in an enormous amount of really important NT matches. This is simply undeniable fact. Your argument was that you expect the best players in the world to score or assist to win matches, so Messi having non-goals/assist contributions isn’t enough. When confronted with the fact that you’ve called someone who barely scores or assists the best player in the world, you basically admit that you can be the best player in the world without scoring or assisting. So you’ve completely renounced the point you’d made. As you must, since it was completely inconsistent nonsense. The reality is that, like Modric but in different ways, Messi contributes a ton even without scoring. This is why Messi has repeatedly won player of the tournament awards without scoring in knockout stages, just like Modric did in 2018. And I’ve explained this here repeatedly, with tons of data backing up this point. If you want to ignore what Messi does besides scoring and say he was not great if he didn’t score, then you can do that, but it just makes you look like someone who is stubbornly holding onto ignorant talking points. Messi is an elite scorer, but he is also an elite playmaker, an elite dribbler, and elite at progressing the ball with passing in the attacking half. You can correctly point out that Messi has not scored as much for Argentina, but it is just ignorant to act like that means he wasn’t great—and such an argument is plainly contradicted by him repeatedly receiving best player awards without having scored all that much. So pretty much everyone understands this stuff, except you—which is because you have an agenda that you’re desperately sticking to. But he didn’t underperform xG in 2022–in fact, he outperformed it. Maradona very likely outperformed xG in 1986 (though not necessarily by a ton—remember, he took 30 shots, including 14 inside the box, and one goal wasn’t real). So they both outperformed xG in the WC they won. And they both underperformed it other times. Maradona definitely underperformed it in 1990, since he did not score in the tournament. And he definitely underperformed it in his three Copa Americas, since he never scored a single goal in those three tournaments. He also probably underperformed xG in WC 1982. At a more general level, it is true that Messi outperformed xG for Barcelona and almost certainly didn’t for Argentina. That’s one major reason why his Argentina form didn’t consistently meet his Barcelona form. But, again, Messi can certainly simultaneously have failed to meet his Barcelona form and be one of the very best NT players ever. So you explicating on one of the main reasons he didn’t quite meet his Barcelona form doesn’t really make much of a point here. Even without outperforming xG like he did for Barcelona, his performances still put him amongst the top NT performers of all time. Huh? You’re drawing bizarre conclusions. What I said is that Messi outperforms xG for Barcelona and didn’t for Argentina. That’s fact (though it’s also fact that Messi was one of the greatest ever NT performers despite that). I then theorized a reason why that might be the case—based on the objectively different shot distribution he had for Argentina. Messi’s shot distribution was objectively different for Argentina. That’s not debatable. And it’s basically not debatable that that shot distribution being different is at least in part a result of a lesser talent gap. That’s not blaming teammates. It’s just factually true that Barcelona generally had greater talent superiority over their opponents than Argentina had over its opponents in major tournaments, and also that teams with greater talent gaps can generate more inside-the-box shots. The explanation also doesn’t really matter, because Messi is clearly one of the greatest NT players ever despite not being able to replicate his xG over-performance for Argentina.
Well, first of all, Messi just had multiple knockout-stage performances against high-caliber opponents that were similarly good or better, in the last three rounds of WC 2022. Again, you just are making outdated arguments, because you can’t let go of your agenda. And the idea that Messi is not hugely impactful in the construction of play is just completely ridiculous and plainly contradicted by boatloads of data I’ve provided in this thread (as well as simply watching the man play). You just refuse to accept objective fact. I’ve demonstrated this again and again about club level—where Messi consistently ranks at or amongst the top of all players in the world in various progressive passing stats. It is undeniable that Messi is elite at progressing the ball with passing and dribbling, as well as in playmaking. But let’s take some data from NT level too: In World Cup 2022, Messi had 66 progressive passes. That was the most on Argentina, with the second most being just 37. Messi had 38 passes into the attacking third, which was second on Argentina (with first being 43). Messi had 18 passes or crosses into the penalty area. This was first on Argentina, with second being 14. Messi had 21 key passes, which was first on Argentina, with second place being just 10. Messi completed 27 long passes, which was second on the team (with first being 33). Messi’s passes had the 4th most progressive distance of Argentina’s outfield players (and only barely behind one non-defender). He made 43 “shot-creating actions” (look up fbref’s definition of this for more information), with second most on Argentina being just 21. He made 15 successful dribbles—less than he would’ve in the past, but still the highest on the team. In Copa America 2021, Messi had 38 progressive passes. That was the most on Argentina, with the second most being just 18. Messi had 35 passes into the attacking third. That was the most on Argentina, with the second most being just 19. Messi had 16 passes or crosses into the penalty area. That was the most on Argentina, with the second most being just 7. Messi had 21 key passes. That was the most on Argentina, with the second most being just 6. Messi completed 25 long passes, which was the third-most amongst Argentina outfield players, and only 2 behind the lead. Messi’s passes had the 2nd most total progressive distance on his team. He made 51 shot-creating actions, with second most on Argentina being just 16. He made 34 successful dribbles, with second on the team being just 15. And these numbers were mostly all not just the highest or close to highest on Argentina, but were often also at or amongst the highest of anyone in those tournaments (for instance, he was #2 in the whole tournament in progressive passes both times). You are just arguing something that is plainly untrue, because you just refuse to stop cynically diminishing Messi. Messi is absolutely elite at ball progression—both through passing and dribbling—as well as playmaking. It is not deniable, and no amount of bleating about Messi not scoring as many goals for Argentina will negate that. He is so elite at these areas of play that he can score less for Argentina and still have been one of the greatest NT players of all time. Indeed, that much is obvious from him having won multiple player of the tournament awards without having scored all that much.
It also seems fairly obvious to me that Messi would be criticized for a performance like Iniesta’s Euro 2012 final performance, if Messi’s team lost. It’d be said that, despite dribbling the ball really well, he wasn’t ultimately decisive, having not managed to score or assist, and only really directly creating one solid chance. Indeed, it was a great performance, but it’s honestly not really a performance that was meaningfully better than Messi’s 2016 CA finals performance (leaving the penalty miss in the shootout aside). Indeed, in a large sense, Messi was more decisive in 2016, since his dominant dribbling got a Chile player sent off for two yellows early. (Of course an Argentina player got red carded soon thereafter, so it didn’t ultimately result in easy victory, but forcing desperate fouls that get a player sent off is a big deal, and, absent Messi having done that, the subsequent Argentina red card would’ve very likely left them losing outright in regular time). This is a good example of outcome bias—which is particularly prevalent with regards to matches where a player shows great quality but doesn’t score or assist. Iniesta’s performance is considered great (correctly, IMO) because it came in a match his team dominated and won, while Messi’s similar level of performance is deemed a disappointment because his team ultimately lost (and because the standards for Messi are just higher).
To clarify, I wasn’t trying to downplay Iniesta. (In fact, I am the author of the thread saying I think he’s better than Zidane!). But it is unquestionably true IMO that his legacy is burnished by a bit of luck in a big moment. Specifically, his legacy is of course burnished a great deal by scoring the winner in a WC final. But there was certainly luck involved in that. Most prominently, the shot could’ve certainly been saved—indeed, the Dutch GK actually did get a hand on the shot. Meanwhile, Casillas went the wrong direction and only barely clipped Robben’s shot with his foot as he jumped the other direction. There’s certainly luck involved there in one GK barely making a save and the other barely not making the save. And that luck has certainly affected our perception of them as NT players: Iniesta is a WC winner who won it for his team, while Robben lost in the finals and missed a great chance. It could’ve easily instead been Robben being the one who was a WC winner and won it for his team. And I think that’s a good example of luck having a large effect on players’ NT resumes. I think the “super-ATG level” is just not a level that virtually anyone has played at very often for their NT. I think you’re right that Messi has rarely played at it. WC 2022 was there IMO (though not quite at Maradona 1986-level, as discussed in this thread). And you mentioned CA 2015, but I’ll also say I think he was definitely there in CA 2016. (You mentioned you’d not seen much of CA 2016, so I’ll just say it’s worth watching. Messi was incredible. I went to one of his knockout-stage matches in CA 2016 and it was certainly “super-ATG level”). He also was there in CA 2021 aside from the final (which is, of course, a notable caveat—though a caveat that applies to some other top-tier NT performances in history too). But I guess the point I’ve been trying to drill home in this thread is that virtually no other players were playing at a “super-ATG level” for their NT very often either. To take Maradona as an example, he was very clearly at a “super-ATG level” in WC 1986. But he had 6 other NT tournaments in his career (WC 1982, WC 1990, WC 1994, CA 1979, CA 1987, and CA 1989), and he really wasn’t even close to “super-ATG level” in any of those. Zidane was a really great NT player, but the number of matches he played at a “super-ATG level” is actually not all that high. Platini was at that “super-ATG level” in Euro 1984, but not otherwise. I could go on. The bottom line is that that “super-ATG level” is an extremely high bar that virtually no one has often met. Messi hasn’t met it super often either, but that’s not mutually exclusive with being one of the top several NT players ever.
Then what in the world have you been arguing about??? Throughout this discussion, I have repeatedly said that I think Messi simultaneously is one of the very best NT players ever *and* disappointing for having not consistently reached his Barcelona form for Argentina. You apparently agree with that every bit of that, and yet you’ve been arguing with me…why? The vast majority of what you wrote in your post is in-the-weeds stuff that is completely obviated by this. If you think Messi is one of the very best NT players ever then none of your points matter to me at all for purposes of this discussion. Indeed, I’m not disagreeing with virtually any nuanced criticism of Messi’s NT career, but am merely contextualizing the criticism as being things that nevertheless don’t prevent him from being one of the very best NT players ever. You agree that he is one of the very best NT players ever despite your criticisms, so you completely agree with my bottom-line point. Therefore, aside from me being baffled as to why you’ve been incessantly arguing with me (and in a very rude manner at that) despite my repeated explanations of my point as being something you apparently agree with, there doesn’t seem to be much more for me to say on this particular subject, because you agree with me. I will therefore only address below a few minor side-points that I just think need to be addressed (in many cases because you’ve made personal attacks): This is nonsense. You’ll find that I have acknowledged Messi was poor in the CA 2021 finals. I said in this thread that he was poor in the 2013 CL against Bayern. And I don’t think he was good in the WC 2014 finals and have discussed that in the Gerd Muller thread. I could go on. Messi can be poor. It’s just that he often was not at all poor even in matches where he didn’t score or assist, because he often does quite a lot of really good stuff that isn’t scoring or assisting. You seem unable to acknowledge that, but it’s manifestly obvious and it’s completely baffling to me that you won’t acknowledge it. If your point is instead that, in the absence of scoring or assisting, he’s “poor” because, even if he does other great stuff, it’s “poor” by his standards to have not also scored or assisted, then that’s just a tautological point—definitionally, everyone is fairly frequently “poor” or below average by their own standards. But Messi being poor or disappointing by his standards doesn’t mean he was poor by normal standards—indeed, he might well have still been really good by normal standards. More generally, this part of your post is essentially just libelous tripe. The claim that I am an “absolute slavish, religious fanatic” regarding Messi is just verifiably false. I think it is fairly obvious that I’ve done a rather large amount of contextualization and criticism of Lionel Messi here (indeed, probably more than you’ve done about all Real Madrid players combined). I’ve previously pointed this out to you (even citing to you other threads where I’ve had lengthy discussions where I criticized Messi in depth), and have also made a boatload of arguments in this very thread that directly and obviously go against Messi (for instance, repeatedly pointing out that Messi’s scoring for Barcelona needs to be contextualized since it came for a top-tier super team; repeatedly stating that Messi was “disappointing” for Argentina for not consistently meeting his Barcelona form; arguing that Maradona’s WC 1986 was better than Messi’s WC 2022 regardless of Messi’s final being better). You know all of that. So this attack is just indefensible nonsense that you should be ashamed of and apologize for. And you are a plainly irredeemable poster if you do not do so. No, you didn’t say “the best goalscorers in the world.” What you actually said was that “find[ing] the goal to win the game” is “the expectation that we place on the game’s best players” and that doing so is “the spirit of an elite sportsman.” Turns out that that’s conveniently not always your expectation of “the game’s best players.” So you now are clarifying/amending that point to mean it’s your expectation of “the best goalscorers.” That’s fine, but the acknowledgment that one can be the game’s best player without making many decisive goals or assists is really important, because Messi makes elite contributions in multiple non-goalscoring/assisting aspects of the game. More generally, your contextualization of Modric as a CM whose role isn’t necessarily to score is obviously correct context about Modric, but that’s the point. Messi plays a substantially deeper role than a normal forward—with massive responsibility to progress the ball and build up play in the attacking half with his dribbling and passing. This is manifestly obvious from watching him, but is also utterly clear from the boatloads of statistical data I’ve provided in this thread. As you say, he should be “judged on the metrics of” this role—which, in this case, means not just reductively judged on whether he’s scored or not. Maradona led his domestic league in goalscoring multiple times and was in the top 3-4 several other times as well. He’s even scored 43 goals in a club season (50 goals total that year if we count NT goals that year too). Yes, he was definitely a goalscorer. Not as good of one as Messi, sure, but he was absolutely a goalscorer. This point doesn’t really matter in the grand scheme of any argument, but it needed clarification/correction. This point doesn’t really matter to any underlying point, but I can’t help but point out that you’re just knowingly incorrectly paraphrasing things so you can attack it without actually engaging with the real point being made. Do you think Argentina had the same talent gap to its opponents that Barcelona generally had? And do you disagree with the fact that a larger talent gap allows a team to generate more inside-the-box shots? Unless the answer to either of those two questions is yes, then I don’t have the slightest idea why you’re arguing. If you wanted to dispute the point I was making, the better argument would be that there’s evidence that Messi’s outperformance of xG at club level isn’t really just about inside-the-box outperformance. He had a similar distribution of shot location in his latter few years at Barcelona as he did for Argentina, and he did actually vastly outdo his xG in those years anyways. And there’s evidence that he vastly outdid xG even in just his outside the box shots, at least in the 2010-2014 time period (https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/lionel-messi-is-impossible/). So I’m not actually sure my suggestion was correct—not because anything you’re disputing is wrong, but because he may substantially outperform xG for Barcelona in outside-the-box shots too.
The point is about "peak Messi" that used to struggle with Argentina. He didnt struggle at the time with high pressure situations so to reduce his ineffectivness for Argentina to high pressure makes zero sense. There is way more to it.
No it wouldn't be a defining moment type of performance by Messi vs Nigeria - I was more thinking about which game (albeit he came off a while before the end of it - it might be argued that makes his time on the pitch and output more notable/impressive though perhaps in that case) he played in the World Cup that would be closest to 'super-ATG' level in terms of his play.
Yeah, I understand the point for sure but just wanted to caveat some things in case my viewpoint could be misunderstood (on a second hand basis too - repping/praising your post). I see what you mean and in a way maybe it applies to the assister even more - Fabregas and Sneijder in those cases (or maybe not because it garners a bit less fame...and Sneijder does receive credit for the pass when people remember about it at least - I guess, even though I feel he played better in general in Euro 2008 actually, in a more fluent/positive team though albeit it didn't get as far ultimately, that his World Cup 2010 and whole 2010 year/season would receive a boost if that had been the winning assist though wouldn't it so in a way Casillas managed to deny Sneijder some positive rep and votes etc with that save quite probably!).
On the 'super-ATG' point in terms of International performance performances, I guess there's a distinction between a near 10 out of 10 type performance and showing signs of being an out of the ordinary world class player. Aside from that Nigeria game maybe Messi doesn't have either particularly, although there might have been glimpses vs Switzerland too that year, and although past his peak and for me (I know some liked it though) showing not the nicest attitude to opponents etc, vs the Netherlands this time there also were I'd say (both those cases helped very much by a stand-out assist, but not only for that reason). Like I say though, maybe not in terms of the overall performance rating (IIRC sometimes the level of play was better, sometimes the end product was better) but in terms of looking like a true top player and making some key contributions because of it CA15 did have something to show in this respect from him too, and it seems CA16 too (not everyone gets to play two continental level finals tournaments in two consecutive years though to be fair...and Pele apparently did very well in CA59 but we don't have the footage for example...so I don't think it's biased to say that the opportunities are sometimes more numerous in the modern day that for some players of the past who had tournaments with less qualification places available too...so in terms of the Euros for example looking at the latter stages of the qualification process would be fair probably for example). CA07 might be considered too perhaps for example (although from back when he was at most seen as a potential future ATG rather than already being one)? I'd say that Maradona had multiple 1986 games (it might be argued how many exactly) that would meet the criteria fully/partly though, plus the Hungary game from 1982. Cruyff had multiple 1974 performances in the ballpark (to some extent there is an argument that his best play and best end product weren't in the same games too I guess...but like you say it depends on circumstances including whether team-mates convert chances etc) and it seems like some late stage Euro 76 qualifying games and maybe the same for 1978 World Cup qualifying (full games not being available makes things somewhat more uncertain for those times though of course). It might be argued he showed signs of a potential super-ATG level player vs Hungary in Euro 68 qualifying even (or at least a world class youngster) but that wasn't late stage even though against the eventual group winners.... Pele had the games vs France and Sweden as a youngster in 1958 that would be in the mix at least (I realise that in those cases it would be to some extent fair to point out the more open nature of the game at Intl level at that point etc), but it's harder to evaluate the Wales and USSR games and say yes or no necessarily I think, without the full game footage. Leaving the Copa America aside, albeit I think he gave the ball away more than would be the case in a 'near perfect' performance he certainly showed a stand-out level vs Mexico in 1962, and appeared to be a world class player in good form vs Bulgaria in 1966. Then for me the Czechoslovakia and Romania games might be thrown in from 1970 (moreso the former for me I think still), and he showed moments in other games of super-ATG level though I'd hesitate to add the games in overall maybe (bearing in mind I'm talking about the general level of play - it's not to say decisive end product, particularly when excellently executed like vs Italy in the Final doesn't count for anything in general obviously, and he came up with some genius plays vs Uruguay obviously but again maybe that's not enough to put the whole performance down as a super-ATG one or his general level in the game....). Platini maybe seemed closer to himself in World Cups in a few games than Messi did in some of the knockout games, I think, but it's true probably he wouldn't have many/any definitively super-ATG qualifying games in the tournament perhaps. Like you say a few of his Euro 84 games would be included for the remarkable end product (not just the numbers but the way he scored), even if he might not quite have been at his peak level in terms of the creative side. I think the bar would be set too high if Zidane's games vs Brazil didn't count, and I'd at least add in the Portugal game from Euro 2000 (potentially more games - he was standing out more than Messi has in World Cups in general, although I guess you'd prefer to compare to CA games). Van Basten would have two or three worthy games from 1988 I think, in the wider sense at least. He didn't have a lengthy International career of course, but it's true he wouldn't have anything to show in this respect from 1990. Of course some other players might have claims for super-ATG or near super-ATG level World Cup game performances, even outside super-ATG player candidates overall - Hagi vs Colombia in 1994 for example potentially? - if that's not a contradiction. I think it's not so rare as to virtually never happen, and there are also degrees - being close to it or being quite far away. But it's obviously not something that regularly happens in every tournament, and it's not a given that a GOAT candidate will always be able to play to 'super-ATG' level in big Intl games (or big club games for that matter).
Cristiano Ronaldo vs Hungary 2016? World class backheel goal World class header World class through ball assist All goal contributions were to come back from losing positions This definitely measures up to at least one of those platini/Van Basten Euro games
I do remember thinking the backheel goal was good, I admit, at the time (though maybe I had to think it because I'd scored a similar one playing down the park around a couple of decades earlier which might contend for my best ever in somewhat competitive football lol, along with one I vaguely remember in a primary school tournament where I jinked between two players and scored with a drive albeit probably quite a tame/slow one by pro standards given how old I was!). Below Van Basten vs England I'd have thought; maybe more debatable/closer for some of the others you allude to and/or for some of Messi's best tournament games....?
That would be an unfair way to evaluate a performance(based on what you did at primary school) Robson Kanu playing for Wales Scored vs Belgium the same goal as Van basten vs england
This isn’t a perfect measure and you could quibble about individual matches counted or not counted, but for argument’s purposes and to use some objective standard so that we aren’t succumbing to any particular biases we might have regarding players and eras (not a shot at you, just a fact that everyone looks at performances with some personal biases), let’s just say that something is an all-time great performance if it was at least an 8.5/10 from SofaScore. We could of course quibble with where the line should be, but I use that number in part because that’s the score Zidane got vs. Brazil in 2006 and I want to set it so that that match counts (indeed, you specifically mentioned above that the bar is too high if that match doesn’t count). SofaScore does not have ratings for CA 2007, CA 2011, or CA 2015, so we’ll leave those aside for now. In the 8 tournaments we are left with for Messi, that still leaves us with the following performances: WC 2006: - Group Stage Match vs. Serbia (note: he only played 16 minutes in this match though, but did a ton in those 16 minutes, so it’s an odd one) WC 2010: - Group Stage Match vs. Nigeria WC 2014: - Group Stage Match vs. Bosnia - Group Stage Match vs. Nigeria (Note: the round of 16 match vs. Switzerland barely misses—having gotten an 8.4) CA 2016: - Group Stage Match vs. Panama - QFs vs. Venezuela - SFs vs. USA WC 2018: - Group Stage Match vs. Nigeria CA 2021: - Group Stage Match vs. Bolivia - QFs vs. Ecuador - SFs vs. Colombia (Note: the group stage match vs. Chile barely misses—having gotten an 8.4) WC 2022: - QFs vs. Netherlands - Finals vs. France That’s 13 matches. And, again, that’s not looking at CA 2007, CA 2011, or CA 2015–since we don’t have ratings for those. But he absolutely did have such a performance in at least the SFs against Paraguay in CA 2015 (for reference: He had three assists and got a 9.7 from WhoScored for that match). And the group stage match against Costa Rica in CA 2011 probably has a good chance of being there too if we had ratings. There’s also a few really good matches in CA 2007 it’s possible would’ve qualified if we had ratings (specifically the QFs and SFs), though my guess is they’d fall short. So, overall, we are probably looking at between 14 and 17 matches total (as well as at least a couple near misses). My best guess is 15 (and that’s not counting the final WC 2018 qualifying match, which was certainly a super-all-time-great performance in an incredibly important and difficult game). That’s quite a lot. For reference, Maradona met that mark 5 times ever in the World Cup. That is against South Korea, Uruguay, England, and Belgium in WC 1986, and against Hungary in WC 1982. We don’t have Copa America ratings for him, but given his lack of success and relative lack of output, I don’t think he’d have reached it more than once or twice in the Copa America (for instance, maybe against Ecuador in CA 1987–though one of his two goals was a penalty). Zidane met that mark 3 times in the World Cup (vs. Italy in 1998, vs. Brazil in 1998, and vs. Brazil in 2006). We don’t have Euro ratings, but he’s probably got 2 or 3 more in there (probably a couple in Euro 2000, as well as probably the England game in Euro 2004). R9 had three such matches in the World Cup (vs. Norway in 1998, vs. Costa Rica in 2002, and vs. Japan in 2006), and probably met it about 4 or 5 more times in the Copa America (i.e. each time he had 2 goals, and probably one or two other matches). Platini surely had several in the Euros (very likely 3 or 4 in Euro 1984), but only had one such game in his World Cup career (a group stage match vs. Kuwait). Gerd Muller and Franz Beckenbauer both had 4 such matches in their World Cup careers. Hard to know how many Beckenbauer would’ve had in the Euros given his role (i.e. looking at raw goals + assists wouldn’t necessarily tell us), but it’s probably non-zero, and Muller would have surely had two in Euro 1972 (and probably two or three more if we count Euro qualifying—which was much higher stakes back then and sort of equivalent to today’s group stages). In other words, Messi having reached that level of performance so many times is actually quite exceptional. Of course, part of that is just having had a few more NT tournaments than most, but that’s not all of it (since he’s so far ahead of most everyone else by this measure). And, regardless, as I’ve discussed, having the longevity at an elite level to be a key superstar player in so many NT tournaments is a massive part of being a great NT player. Finally, in any event, you were simply talking about tallying up the raw number of truly great performances in general. I think the other main quibble here is that many of the above matches for Messi didn’t come against the very best opponents. It’s a valid point, particularly as compared to someone like Zidane—whose top-tier matches mostly came against top-tier opponents. As an initial matter, though, a large portion of the above-mentioned performances from others didn’t come against the very best opponents. And Messi has now had a couple of these performances against top-tier opponents, in WC 2022. Also, I still value amazing knockout-stage performances against less-than-top-tier opponents really highly, because they’re super important matches and in football there’s actually a pretty decent chance of losing a single match even against an inferior opponent (we see it all the time).
Yeah, I get that you'd see Sofascore as an arbiter as it were (based on stats), but for sure the issue would be that any individual (me or anyone else) would not concur completely with their 8.5+ games as being the 'super-ATG' ones (or even a more modest description to mean exceptional games in general). For example I didn't see Messi vs Bosnia 2014 that way to be honest (the Youtube videos currently available don't show all the touches and losses of possession though I see for that one - I did notice WhoScored scored him even higher though!). I think I'll bow out again now though, because it's getting too close to getting into prolonged arguments about C.Ronaldo and/or Messi, and that's not what I want at all. Not blaming anyone for that, and it's only to respond to my comments that people have taken it that way anyway, but I'd been trying to keep out of things moreso hadn't I, and I would prefer that, even though I'll probably still be looking at the thread out of curiosity. The one other point I might add, that's been touched on already though, is that as a percentage of the games it seems a bit less 'stand-out' than in counting those up (regardless of quibbling about ones which might not be valid or ones outside the 8.5 mark that might be even), just because of the volume of games he's played in big tournaments. Like I say you and others have already argued both sides of that coin though.
There is a big difference between getting an 8.5 against Brazil (especially the 2006 one) and getting an 8.5 against Nigeria, Bosnia, Ecuador, Venezuela, etc...
Just on that Bosnia game: this description maybe sums it up (why I wouldn't put it as super-ATG level or a really stand-out game) Argentina player ratings v Bosnia and Herzegovina: City striker shines (hitc.com) Lionel Messi – 7 Scored a superb individual goal in the second half to ensure Argentina won and announce to the world he means business in Brazil this summer. However, the rest of his performance wasn’t to his normal high standards and he will need to improve that if Argentina are going to go all the way. Still a superb goal, though. This source did go as high as an 8, but still with a bit of a disclaimer Player Ratings: Argentina 2-1 Bosnia-Herzegovina - Sports Mole Lionel Messi: The multiple world player of the year winner offered little during the first half, but he responded in the second with a glorious finish from 20 yards. Looked more threatening operating alongside two strikers rather than just one. (8/10) I think Isaias's point is a fair one: to be fair lessthanjake did also touch on it, and I understand it's difficult to come to any objective criteria about including games or not anyway. Like I say I'll leave it here again now myself anyway.