Giovanni “Gio” Reyna national team discussion (from YA)

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by gogorath, Jan 18, 2020.

  1. grandinquisitor28

    Feb 11, 2002
    Nevada
    Good points all, I'm glad we're past it, beyond the Beau Dure's, LA Times guys, Marko's etc who disagree and think more should happen, but I do find your breakdown here interesting and kinda funny. It is one of the weirdest things ever. I wonder what French message boards, and French reddit was like in 2010? Regardless, it's all a mystery and you brought up a good point I forgot about the fitness check he refused, is that in itself a kind of tantrum (of the, "don't blame my argument on PMS, Its not PMS, I'm right! kind of sexist styled angle"), or just trying to avoid it? I don't know, but it's particularly rich in craziness, and I forgot about the fitness angle to the insiders comment to Doyle.

    I don't really believe it though, I will say that, in the sense that I think the fitness had nothing to do with it, and that Berhalter just didn't want the will he or wont he problem bedevilling his Xi's and his scenarios of subbing. He probably just wanted Reyna in that consensus position which would have been Morris vs Wales, Reyna vs England and Nada vs Iran. I think he trusted Aaronson as first off the bench attacker, particularly on the left, and Reyna was probably planned initially to be Weah's first sub until he had the melt down. I think the only relevance to the tightness was that it further insured he wouldn't be doing anything like Davies suggested (Reyna or Weah as False 9/RWF).
     
  2. Marko72

    Marko72 Member+

    Aug 30, 2005
    New York
    Wait one second. I think "more should happen?" What on earth are you talking about?
     
  3. grandinquisitor28

    Feb 11, 2002
    Nevada
    Aren't you the guy that thought he should sit out for 2 years? I apologize if I'm mixing you up with someone else.
     
  4. Marko72

    Marko72 Member+

    Aug 30, 2005
    New York
    Hell no. I never said he should sit at all. I said that he should concentrate on his club football, because success at Dortmund is what would make this whole mess irrelevant.

    I said that Claudio and Danielle should never be allowed back into the building at US Soccer. They have no role, and they should not be allowed any role, formal or informal, on any level.
     
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  5. grandinquisitor28

    Feb 11, 2002
    Nevada
    I totally apologize then, totally mixed you up with someone else.
     
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  6. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    One thing that I think has been weirdly retconned that probably affects my point of view versus others is this idea that Berhalter was somehow anti-Reyna before this.

    I noticed this kind of this before with the fanbase, where a player gets hurt and there's a perception that Berhalter was simply not calling them up or didn't rate them.

    Gio played his first match on the eve of his 18th birthday. Here's how they all went:

    Window 1: 2 starts
    Window 2: Non-FIFA
    Window 3: Non-FIFA
    WIndow 4: 2 starts
    Window 5: 3 starts, late game sub against Costa Rica after Nations League extra time final when most starters sat
    Window 6: B Team Gold Cup
    Window 7: Started, Injured

    Injured until Window 12.

    Window 12: Subbed in all three games coming off injury - 30', 45', 29'
    Window 13: Injured again
    Window 14: Subbed in both games coming off injury - 45', 30'. Note that he got briefly injured AGAIN here and didn't play in the next game or two for Dortmund.

    So in that span, he basically started every game we called the A team for except the Costa Rica game after Nations League and when we was hurt.

    When he came back from injury -- an injury he basically TWICE reinjured, he played consistently 30 to 45'.

    So ... yeah, I guess Berhalter could have told him that you're behind Aaronson? Brenden was killing it for a while there.

    But this is a guy who started every game, and when he came off the bench, played 30-45 minutes each time.

    Maybe there really was a Hatfield and McCoy thing going on, but it wasn't through September of that year.
     
  7. grandinquisitor28

    Feb 11, 2002
    Nevada
    The easiest way to see it I think is to see Reyna's role historically.

    After Covid:
    He walks into the team as a starter during that winter late 2020 Wales/somebody else pair of matches.

    He's a starter in the March friendly window, I think against N. Ireland, maybe Jamaica too.

    He's a starter in the NL matches with Honduras and El Tri.

    He's a starter in window 1 pre-injury.

    What happened to me is pretty clear:
    He got hurt, and repeatedly injured, like Weah's 2019-2020 except cubed.

    While he was hurt, Berhalter defaulted to Arriola (apparently because Morris was still hurt!?!?!, and maybe because Weah was working his way back to health after Window 1 injury exclusion). Arriola was good, then bad, then got hurt. That's probably a sticking point for us because I view his Arriola first thing as stupid, AND much worse, he then got Arriola injured, running him into the ground as a starter in 3 straight games when it was already obvious he was tired out in the first half of the game against Panama after running his butt off in the Jamaica match, but regardless, Berhalter kept running w/him, then he gets hurt in warmups (while the board, or me anyway and others are losing our ---- that he's the RWF starter again!!!), Weah comes in, and has an absolute barn burner of a game.

    So he starts Weah vs Mexico and hes great again, and he starts him at Jamaica and he scores an absolute beauty early and boom, Weah's starter and the rest is history, verticality which was becoming a thing earlier, is now 24/7 in shining lights yada yada.

    I never thought the Reyna stuff was personal ever, I just thought it was largely stupid and self-defeating except the angle that he was quite reasonably paranoid about Reyna's health after he couldn't get out of windows healthy ever when he got back onto the field for more than a few weeks.

    It's kind of like the MLS/Europe conspiracy thing either, didnt buy that even in '19, I just thought it was familiarity, MLS coach, wanted blankey's that he knew rather than guys that he didnt and he'd err to the side of conservative usually though not always in allowing guys to jump over the Lovitz's, Yueill's, and Trapp's and Yedlin's and what not of the world (see the very very molasses like slowness of Scally and Weah-it happens, its just overly slow, but at least unlike with Tata, it actually happens (except w/Scally it only got from not in the group, to in the group).
     
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  8. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    My short version:
    • Very talented Gio Reyna comes into the team and quickly earns a starting role
    • The team does okay; the offense never really clicks in part because Gio and Pulisic play very similarly
    • Gio gets hurt
    • Weah has come back, and it becomes clear that a) he's very good and b) his style of play helps open things up for other people
    • Musah has emerged as a must-start alongside Adams and McKennie
    • The team struggles at times in qualifying, but overcomes obstacles, frostbite and qualifies with this as the core. There's a lot of teambuilding but also just learning to play with each other as players like Dest and Weah develop some good chemistry
    • Reyna gets hurt 2 more times before the World Cup, and only sees 75 minutes across two windows. Aaronson gets experimental minutes at CAM, but Reyna does not play in the June window where that occurs because he was injured.
    So we come into the World Cup. Reyna was fully hurt for over six months, but then has two more stints of injury, and has barely played for the US in over a year. Weah has played well. Musah and McKennie have played well. There's been very little time to see Reyna as a CAM or a false 9 (since the injury). He has gotten 30-45 minutes in his 5 sub appearances.

    There's lots of potential reactions to this state of affairs. But I there's nothing here that says to me that it was clear he should start. There's also nothing in the track record of his sub play that tells me he was slated to only play minimal minutes, either, though.

    At this point, whatever. There will be a new coach, someday. And eventually this will all blow over as long as no one is idiotic about it.
     
  9. no exit

    no exit Member+

    DC United
    United States
    Nov 20, 2019
    I'll add that in his pre-World Cup appearances for Dortmund he looked a little torpid. Even in these appearances since the Bundesliga's come back, he just looks like he lacks a certain something, a certain pep, even when considering the critical goals.
     
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  10. ebbro

    ebbro Member+

    Jun 10, 2005
    Someone's making good use of their thesaurus.:)
     
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  11. grandinquisitor28

    Feb 11, 2002
    Nevada
    I can't whatever it from the weird stand point that:
    #1 Where does Reyna actually play?
    #2 How long does Weah get a free starting role while stinking for club but killing it for country (for me its forever so long as he's match fit).

    Going forward its still going to be a problem because we have 3 different wing forwards that have played very high end soccer in the shirt, plus a fourth w/high upside in Aaronson.

    We also have McKennie and no striker. What do we do at striker?

    Where do we put Reyna if he is a starter, where do we put Reyna, where do we put McKennie considering good McKennie is world class, and bad McKennie is MLS/Scotland level garbage.

    It's a problem.

    And if Tillman continues to develop it gets really weird, and if Sargent scores for this new coach and Pepi gets right (he's kind of slumping)....

    Figuring out how to line up, how to play and who to start is going to be difficult because none of these guys feel like auto starters to me other than Pulisic, Adams and Musah (I'd add Weah, but if he can't get minutes, eventually it's going to be a problem and if he does get minutes and continues to struggle to score its gonna be a problem). Add in Dest's club issues and its even weirder.

    And I'm sure you know, but Reyna wasn't in my XI for the World Cup until Sargent was hurt and then I viewed him as a false 9 option, but not the starter. My RWF was Weah, my striker was Pepi or Sargent.
     
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  12. theboogeyman

    theboogeyman Member+

    Jun 21, 2010
    Maybe I’m misreading your post, but it seems to me that you are calling depth a problem.


    The simple fact is that we have a little competition for PT now, even for our best players.

    I’ve said this before, but I think he’s the most talented player in our pool. But as talented as he is, we have pretty good players at all the spots he competes for. After missing a year due to injury, it seemed pretty clear to me that he was primarily going to be a backup in Qatar.
     
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  13. MayaDempsey

    MayaDempsey Member+

    Jul 29, 2014
    Club:
    Michigan Bucks
    I personally start with a free kick taker. It’s been a black hole for a while now.
     
  14. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    Going forward, that will obviously depend on the coach and how they want to play.

    For me, he's either playing an attacking midfielder position or a non-traditional winger. I know he played some 8 with Dortmund but I really don't see it in his playstyle or intensity or with our pool. Dortmund also hasn't been a good defensive team in like a decade.

    No one gets a free starting role, but a) I agree that club is not important as long as performance continues for country and b) right now he doesn't have much competition for the skillset and role that he brings.

    I don't think it is a problem. Well, no striker is a problem, but our increasing attacking depth that you are maybe describing is only a problem because the players of the team and fanbase of the team is used to us having absolutely no talent.

    It's why I think I react viscerally to the generic criticism of "Reyna only played X minutes" -- we are finally getting depth at some positions to the point where talented players won't play. It's time to pull the training wheels off there -- there are going to be winner and losers.

    Some of those guys are even going to lose out merely on not fitting as well with other players or the coaches.

    We have Weah, Pulisic, Reyna, Aaronson, McKennie, Adams and Musah. Even moving some of those players to striker, you really can't get them all on the field. (Unless someone moves to CB or something). That's without accounting for Sergino Dest.

    And while I'm all for rolling out a super attack minded offense against CONCACAF at home, I'd also note that Pulisic, Reyna and Dest are on the ball, dribbly guys, those three plus Aaronson love to play forward and centrally.

    Someone is going to lose out. But that's a good thing. It allows for injuries and slumps and whatever.

    The next coach should figure out how to get the best team on the field. That often isn't squashing all the best players into wherever you are.

    I guess it can be a problem because all these guys are kind of used to minutes. But if we want to be a real soccer nation, our players are going to have to get a bit more used to not playing.

    I do think that's a vote in favor of a big time coach -- we want someone for whom these transitions are normal, I think, and who has experience handling the players.

    I think it'll be fun.

    I was one of Berhalter's bigger defenders, but I'm super interested to see a new perspective coming in and what they would do.
     
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  15. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Shrug. Also comes down to the skill-sets you want out there.
    Weah is a speed merchant, the benefits of which we saw against Wales.
    So is Pulisic. Aaronson is a motor guy.

    Yeah...............the weird thing is that based on his injury problems, most of us thought he was going to come off the bench. Most of us thought that he might have a limited role. That had NOTHING to do with this talent level. Maybe Reyna didn't like how the message was delivered. I don't know. But he had zero goals and zero assists for the USMNT in calendar year 2022. Meanwhile the team was gelling during WCQing with important contributions from guys like Pulisic, Weah, Aaronson, and company.

    In the run-up to the event we were talking about just how little time Reyna had been on the field with some of the core USMNTers. We were questioning how and where he fit. Based on the last few pages of this thread, we're still arguing about it. We don't really know. Its a question for the next coach.
     
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  16. NietzscheIsDead

    NietzscheIsDead Member+

    NO WAR
    United States
    May 31, 2019
    NO WAR
    Claudio Reyna out at Austin FC.

    Does he resign from soccer and take up being a full time soccer dad?
     
  17. chad

    chad Member+

    Jun 24, 1999
    Manhattan Beach
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    At least his kid is good at soccer?
     
  18. Excellency

    Excellency Member+

    LA Galaxy
    United States
    Nov 4, 2011
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    #3918 Excellency, Jan 26, 2023
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2023
    Berhalter said (in Chatham House speech) it was very important that the "Leadership Council" took ownership of the whole pillory process.:cautious: What a snake.
     
  19. Excellency

    Excellency Member+

    LA Galaxy
    United States
    Nov 4, 2011
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    I'm disappointed in Precourt's action with respect to Reyna but Reyna will land on his feet because he did nothing wrong and he has been a successful executive who just happened to fall prey to unfortunate circumstances. I'd hire him in a heartbeat.
     
  20. Excellency

    Excellency Member+

    LA Galaxy
    United States
    Nov 4, 2011
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    The best that the Berhalter groupies can come up with vs. the Reynas' is "soccer mom" and "soccer dad". Oooooh, that hurts.
     
  21. MarioKempes

    MarioKempes Member+

    Real Madrid, DC United, anywhere Pulisic plays
    Aug 3, 2000
    Proxima Centauri
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Not just torpid, but also lethargic.
     
  22. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Blankeys that he knew? Yedlin did not return to MLS until February '22.

    I'm sorry but you are describing incompetence by suggesting that the manager could not discern the difference Lovoitz and Robinson. That is the job FFS. You realise that Adams, Acosta, and Cannon all played in MLS, yet Berhalter still spent the first 2 years selecting Trapp, Yueill, and Lima?
     
  23. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    In the short term Claudio will likely make more money as a "Technical Advisor" to Austin while working a whole lot less.

    https://www.austinfc.com/news/claud...irector-reyna-to-continue-with-austin-fc-as-t
     
  24. butters59

    butters59 Member+

    Feb 22, 2013
  25. NietzscheIsDead

    NietzscheIsDead Member+

    NO WAR
    United States
    May 31, 2019
    NO WAR
    Also true of this situation is that the certain swaths of the fan base is looking for an excuse to pile on Berhalter and they’ll recreate history to extract some more dopamine satisfaction.

    Human are willing to sacrifice their frontal lobes for some cheap limbic action almost every time.
     

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