2022 World Cup

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by comme, Nov 18, 2022.

  1. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Even in case of a win, there would have been enough damage (similar to Portugal vs Belgium at euro 2020).
     
  2. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Yeah, as much as we always got on really well (with a lot of coversations by PM after you joined), I couldn't have said that every time you might have suspicions that my perceptions would align with that necessarily (doesn't mean they couldn't be correct though in any particular case), but there could be reasons they could do for last night's game, it's true for sure (at least, like I said, I have those questions - it'd be bizarre if the BBC were censoring their pundits or whatever but I did find it bizarre those incidents weren't discussed or replayed at half-time....and it's possible I'd think they were worse or clearer red card calls at first glance than after thorough review maybe - what seemed clear is they were cynical and possibly a bit 'nasty' and painful to recieve though, so potentially enough to more severely injure a player - exactly what VAR should be on top of as a main reason to have it, aside from making sure offside calls don't change games incorrectly now for example).

    Anyway, Sofascore did give Messi 9.1, which is IIRC his highest Sofascore grade of this tournament (he got 9.4 vs Nigeria in 2014, despite coming off early, though). Not that I'm saying my calls would align with the Sofascore metric results completely - Frenkie De Jong's score seems a bit on the low side to me (as a reflection of the quality of play and influence) - I was feeling inclined to possibly switch him and Casemiro around in my own tournament first/second XI now (I didn't feel Casemiro had a particularly good game vs Croatia). The highest Sofascore rating is still the Goncalo Ramos 9.8 I guess (before I inspect the Croatia vs Brazil page), which is not really surprising when thinking about other high scoring performances which were literally high scoring in terms of goals (but I'm not saying I'd rule that out as my pick either at this point given the way he scored those goals - other than Messi last night I think for alternatives of perhaps both Mbappe and Griezmann back in the 1st game vs Australia as options, perhaps Tadic even in defeat and being subbed vs Switzerland, perhaps Bellingham vs Senegal although he probably wasn't constantly involved - I'm thinking off the top of my head anyway!).
     
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  3. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #103 PuckVanHeel, Dec 10, 2022
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2022
    The one is related to the other and cannot be separated.

    I am critical though of them reverting back to cautious tactics after the 2-2. They should have pressed on and go out with honor. Van Basten said in the studio: "if you are honest, a quarter final is a fair result. Very often it is not, but this is fair, either way you twist it and crunch the evidence".



    I have no time for the tiki-taka idealists. This was from the first whistle (with fake yellow cards every time you touch Messi - also the 5 law blog notices this) not that sort of game for that. They should have exploited the height advantage more. The opponent, the crowd and referee made it impossible to play neat (or sterile, measured, like vs USA) football.

    Playing with Blind was idiotic (he is done at Ajax). Everyone said this for weeks.


    Congrats, the Simon Kupers, Honigsteins, Hughes, Crafton and who else got the outcome they wanted.

    Maybe it is time to go back to 2008 and earlier when the team entered tournaments with the mind to just entertain for at least one game.

    edit: no riots or unrest in the streets this time. Hopefully the same today.
     
  4. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Joao Felix vs Switzerland too is another one that comes to mind. VInicius Jr vs South Korea maybe. Gavi and Pedro vs Costa Rica. Szczensy vs Saudi Arabra, Livakovic vs Brazil....

    I think the BBC turns a blind eye to more important things (that come under news rather than sport) so who knows about this (maybe the pundits just didn't notice, bring it up, think it was an issue....?). The main question is about replays in general and seemingly lack of VAR intervention on red card challenges anyway I think....
     
  5. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    It's mainly the fouls right near the start of the game I'm talking about; however in today's football especially I'm pretty sure committing a clear and heavy foul and then booting the ball at the players on the opposition bench is two yellow cards, not one, too. Maybe that's purely the ref's call and VAR don't get involved anyway if it's not a straight red card issue? Maybe similar on the Messi handball (on that one it's surely a case of it either is according to the rules a yellow for any deliberate handball or it isn't, which I'm not really sure about, but is there a suggestion it is?). Even Messi having an in depth conversation with the referee at half-time seemed a bit unusual and inappropriate to me too....
     
  6. peterhrt

    peterhrt Member+

    Oct 21, 2015
    Club:
    Leeds United AFC
    Both BBC commentators said the only reason Messi didn't get booked for deliberate handball was because it was Messi.

    They were also sure the penalty was the right call, which I wasn't.
     
  7. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I don't know what to make of this (maybe it's the reason for the half-time conversation, but unless Lionel is blind he must have seen that the worst fouls that could have been red cards were committed by Argentina players I'm thinking - although my own eyesight is admittedly not as good as it was!)
    Lionel Messi calls out referee after Argentina see off Netherlands (90min.com)
    "Wasn't supposed to go to penalties" is confusing. If he said he was missing many fouls by both sides or whatever, maybe it'd make more sense to me. Players will always be biased towards their own teams I suppose though....
     
  8. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Yeah, that is true on those points. I assume that a deliberate handball is a default yellow card, partly because of that (but I probably don't keep up with the rules as much as I should!).
     
  9. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    https://www.vi.nl/nieuws/niet-te-ontkennen-dat-rebellerende-messi-steeds-meer-maradona-wordt

    Otto von Bismarck said once in the 19th century "If the Dutch lived in Ireland, they’d feed the world; if the Irish lived in Holland, they’d drown". (In the 21st century outdated obviously)

    Should now be applied to other places. Have they already received their new IMF loan?

    They won and they still harassed and assaulted Oranje supporters (who, as 'advised', didn’t cheer the goals - most of them at least).
     
  10. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #110 PuckVanHeel, Dec 10, 2022
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2022
    The BBC (and the Guardian, plus the comment section) was predominantly in the camp of Argentina.

    With the USA game they were seeing it with the perspective of USA (which I can understand and have sympathy for), despite the overall positive appraisal of what the opponent did.

    Basically the whole world wanted to see Argentina go through. The organizers included, including most of BS (ppl like unclesux, asf et al, ). Maybe the Benelux and some protestant/lutheran countries excluded.
     
  11. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member+

    Dinamo Zagreb
    Croatia
    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    #111 Sexy Beast, Dec 10, 2022
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2022
    Maybe deliberate handball is a straight red and accidental a simple foul.. so if Lahoz thought that it was deliberate he would have been forced to sent off Messi and not just give him a yeĺlow card so he ignored deliberation part.

    I am going to clear your confusion guys.. how many red cards are in this wc? Especially from star players.

    Referees were told to refrain from giving red cards to star players because it would be a catastrophe for Qatar to have, for example, semi final Argentina v Croatia without Messi and Modric because of double yellows or a red card. Referees are very well aware of who is booked and what not and are skewing rules as much as possible to avoid such scenarios.

    This also goes for Modric who had the risk fo not playing in quaters and after a probably yellow card challenge against Japan late in the game was pardoned.

    Lahoz on the other hand is infamous for being an attention grabbing prick like that. 11 or even more yellows were given due to argument out of 17 cards overall in the match, majority of which went to Argentinians who apparently he favored lol.
     
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  12. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member+

    Dinamo Zagreb
    Croatia
    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    I was waiting for your rant lol.

    Is that why Lahoz strictly, on his own command, added 10 minutes to full time whistle for which VAR room had to double check if he is sure of the decision and called all 50-50 duels in favor of Netherlands in the last 25 minutes. They had like 6, 7 free kicks in dangerous zone in the last 15 mins.

    Yes, Lahoz refrained from giving red card to Argentinians even tho one could make a solid case he should have, especially Paredes, but the same goes for Netherleands and Van Dijk's push, etc.. that is clearly not the product of Lahoz or anyone favoring Argentina, but about what he is told from above the hieirarchy.

    Anyhow, Nethelrands shot 2 times on the target the whole match and scored in 90+11 minute when added time should have been at most 8 mimutes even by Wc standards.
     
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  13. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #113 PuckVanHeel, Dec 10, 2022
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2022
    Like I said, the whole world was in Argentina's camp. That includes you.

    You conveniently 'forget' in above post a red card was actually given... to a player in an orange shirt. You don't mention this and then make up the cards tally yourself.

    This referee was handpicked by Argentina, by the legacy of Grondona. It broke the usual 'confederation neutrality' rule. How handy it was to be Spanish, within a stadium full of Spanish speaking people. Spain is not our friend (click link).

    I have said myself the orange shirts only tried to play for 20 minutes. And well, the viewing figures were low once again.

    The Qataran authorities silenced the few supporters present there - and then let it happen they can be assaulted.
     
  14. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member+

    Dinamo Zagreb
    Croatia
    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    after the time not affecting the game at all.

    If the world, including referee were in Argentinan's camp then why would the referee give out yellow cards to Argentian's throughout the whole match if it was avoidable and not absolutely necessary.

    Lahoz gave 3 yellow cards to Argentinains because of the argument in the first 90 minutes, yellow cards that actually affected Argentina because 2 of those were 2 keystone centre backs Lisandro Martinez and Otamendi.. he also gave another yellow card to Montiel (another defender) in extra time..

    Why would he do so if he favors Argentina? Those calls could have been easily overlooked because we would have never known what they said anyway.

    Your story doesn't add up.

    The only common thread among all decisions Lahoz made is that he refrained from red cards on both sides so that spectacle can continue. Red card completely changes the dynamic of the game and they don't want that.
     
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  15. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    #115 PDG1978, Dec 10, 2022
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2022
    Yeah, my question would be why they didn't ask him to look at the potential red card calls. So any 'bias' seems more from the side of the VAR if anything, the way I see it.

    Surely FIFA shouldn't be discarding the 'fair play' ethos (which VAR makes more possible than ever, in real-time).

    Ruining the game is bad of course, but it would be the Argentina defenders who did it, nobody else, had they been sent off. I would never be in favour of a red for a handball in the middle of the pitch (I even kind of feel a Kempes-esque one on the goal-line can go with just a penalty in some ways though and it wouldn't now and maybe even shouldn't have then according to the rules/guidelines in place albeit I'm not sure and it was hardly a subtle one so couldn't be mis-interpreted as accidental, and I do think that if players were handballing all the time to stop any counter-attack whenever they could for example then yellows/reds would be the only solution...and if players knew they'd get reds then they should never do it deliberately...which would mean Messi had a crazy moment if that was the case), but maybe you're not sure yourself if that is the rule or not?
     
  16. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Takes like this sum it up ("love them for it"):



    No surprises there of course. That is how they tick. Italians and Argentines being cynical is great and part of the game; the orange army doing somewhat the same is not and unleashes a firm media campaign (exactly because it goes against the type and typecasting).


    10 minutes added time was by the way too little given all the time wasting and the like. We have seen 14 minutes given this tournament and 24 in total (in one game).

    Should have been at least a quarter added time. 10 minutes was rather low within these tournament standards.
     
  17. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member+

    Dinamo Zagreb
    Croatia
    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    Football is an entertainment after all, and the rule book is constantly changing so it could provide better spectacle. Red card in most cases kills the entertainment value so they are getting rid of it unless it's absolute necessary.

    This goes beyond Argentina, Netherlands, etc..just because you are in the frame of mind in which you see everything as Netherlands against the world, it doesn't mean it's that.

    The spectacle is what they are looking for and sometimes Netherlands gets the short end of the stick.. sometimes they get 10 minutes added time when losing 2-1.
     
  18. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member+

    Dinamo Zagreb
    Croatia
    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    so far, VAR was deciding how much time needs to be added because it's their job to measure wasted time. This time Lahoz multiple times gave a signal to 4th referee that is 10 minutes.. i haven't seen that in any other match
     
  19. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member+

    Dinamo Zagreb
    Croatia
    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    do you have footgae of those incidents? Var is called only when it is an obvious mistake and for red cards that usually means two footed tackle.. plus, you have to take into consideration that this is WC. Criteria is much higher than usual

    I don't know the rule.. i said "maybe"

    Btw, I agree that directors are horrible this wc. They have zero knowledge on football or sense what is vauable enough to replay
     
  20. peterhrt

    peterhrt Member+

    Oct 21, 2015
    Club:
    Leeds United AFC
    BBC's live commentary wasn't pro-Argentina. Keown if anything was rooting for the Dutch. He was certainly frustrated they didn't try to win the match in extra time.

    The mistake the media in general is making is assuming most people want Messi, Ronaldo or Neymar to win the World Cup - almost as though they are entitled to win it.

    The penalty awarded to Argentina against Poland was one of the most ridiculous I have seen. The goalkeeper's glove literally brushed the forehead of Messi who predictably went down clutching his face. Had the "victim" been Suarez it would never have been referred or given.
     
  21. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    No, strangely I haven't found any Youtube vids or anything (maybe I didn't search thoroughly enough or type in the best words, I don't know....).

    I'm assuming they won't be on general highlights, but didn't check.
     
  22. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #122 PuckVanHeel, Dec 10, 2022
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2022
    Here is one with (quick) replay:
    https://files.catbox.moe/etmn2w.mp4

    Should have been a red, obviously. They just knew they could do this without punishment.

    But they will bend this into both-siderism, just as the 2006 and 2010 games got one-sided treatment, one-sided perpetrators. That's how the demographic forces work.

    Although this was not the sort of game for neat football, it was still poor in intention to go forward. Should have pressed on.

    One of the reasons definitely why many didn't watch or attend the games (reports say viewer numbers dropped a lot after 45 minutes).

    N.B. Moroccans have cited the greater passion for the sport as a reason to support them or play for them. They are in large numbers in Qatar.

    N.B.2 Apparently this are legit considerations for the officials in managing games:
    https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/match-57-qf-ned-arg-mateu-lahoz-esp.2123842/page-15#post-41040535
    Puts an asterisk on the supposed craftiness or cleverness...
     
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  23. peterhrt

    peterhrt Member+

    Oct 21, 2015
    Club:
    Leeds United AFC
    Given FIFA's agenda of involving less-established football nations - Qatar hosting, higher proportion of African/Asian/Central American teams next time - wouldn't they prefer a new name on the cup?
     
  24. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Maybe, if that brings in the votes, has commercial pull (market) or other major financial incentives.

    In that case they are giving the ghost penalties to the wrong teams though. Spending that 'capital' in the wrong matches.
     
  25. Edhardy

    Edhardy Member+

    Sep 4, 2013
    Nairobi, Kenya
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    That was a dramatic semi final. But really surprised by Van Gaal's approach there to basically circulate the ball between the three centre backs and De Jong for large parts of the game, with the first shot on target for them coming quite late in the game. De Jong was tidy though and Messi was sublime at times - especially his press resistance, I can't remember him losing a ball from any of those pressures and the one instance that led to a Rodrigo De Paul chance was very impressive. A game low on quality and full of drama and the "grandpa plus 10 men who can't play football" comments from some from the Dutch media definitely added the kind of spice needed lol. I was hoping they'd shake hands afterwards but I certainly don't mind some trash talk and bad blood in such a high stakes knockout match.


    PS: If you've watched any big La Liga games then you know Mateo Lahoz and Hernandez Hernandez love this kind of spotlight. But still seem to get big games outside La Liga somehow.
     

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