Match 57 (QF): NED : ARG - MATEU LAHOZ (ESP)

Discussion in 'World Cup 2022 - Refereeing' started by balu, Dec 7, 2022.

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What do you think of Mateu Lahoz's performance?

Poll closed Dec 10, 2022.
  1. 1 (worst)

    26.4%
  2. 2

    17.0%
  3. 3

    24.5%
  4. 4

    20.8%
  5. 5

    3.8%
  6. 6

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  7. 7

    3.8%
  8. 8

    1.9%
  9. 9

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  10. 10 (best)

    1.9%
  1. El Rayo Californiano

    Feb 3, 2014
    Yes, caution to Berghuis in 88'.

    And remember, this is the guy who in La Liga sent off Dembele directly for saying, "You are very bad."
     
  2. soccerref69420

    soccerref69420 Member+

    President of the Antonio Miguel Mateu Lahoz fan cub
    Mar 14, 2020
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea DPR
    He did it for a different match I forgot which one. But it was really fantastic content. I hope he does it again. This type of match can be the best training we will get
     
  3. soccermitchell

    Mar 2, 2010
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Messi intentionally handball is not a yellow? Why because he's Messi? o
     
  4. Jon Stakes

    Jon Stakes Member+

    Egypt
    Nov 18, 2022
    LOL @ the average Lahoz is gonna get here for this match
     
  5. El Rayo Californiano

    Feb 3, 2014
    Wales vs Iran, Escobar as referee.
     
  6. StarTime

    StarTime Member+

    United States
    Oct 18, 2020
    I have lots of thoughts about this match, and what it represents on a larger scale. I will probably try to put them into words later. But for now, one smaller thought: I don't think it's any coincidence that the first match to blow up like this happened in the quarterfinal round. For many players, a yellow card has no accumulatory consequence in this round, and if they know that the referees are leaving the red card in the locker room, then they have no disincentive at all the engage in misconduct to their heart's content. All tournament players have been smart, haven't done anything that would get them in big trouble, aware of the consequences. But when they know there are no consequences, that yellow card accumulation is over and that the referee wouldn't dare show a red card, we get what we saw tonight.
     
  7. USSF REF

    USSF REF Guest

    Let me continue to stare at him while holding the card, that will stop him!
     
    heynowref repped this.
  8. USSF REF

    USSF REF Guest

    A number of players received suspensions in this game, did you mean because the cards clear?
     
  9. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    or, perhaps, as discussed above, because it doesn’t meet any of the criteria for a caution in the LOTG….
     
  10. Gacm32

    Gacm32 Member+

    Chelsea
    Switzerland
    Nov 28, 2010
    Geneva
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    Switzerland
    On replay, it was Paredes who should have been sent off.
     
  11. Rufusabc

    Rufusabc Member+

    May 27, 2004
    I finally went back and looked at the play where Paredes and VVD shoukd have gone.

    VVD levels his guy! Holy. Might actually be worse than the firing of the ball.

    My favorite referee of all time ( not the GREATEST of all time) Phil,Dowd, once sent Gary Neville off for firing a ball into the crowd.

    Can we eventually stop making a Saint out of Collina after this WC?
     
  12. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Thank you!
     
  13. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think the words you use here are very important.

    “To create a refereeing culture that spawned…”

    I think this is accurate. And it’s important to distinguish this from @RefIADad post in the other thread where he expressed certainty there was an instruction not to show red cards if at all possible. There wasn’t. Collina can say with a straight face he didn’t give any such instruction. In fact, I’ve heard he gave more of a “ref the way that got you here” directive. To the extent we saw a few more SPA cards than in previous tournaments, maybe there was actually some official encouragement in the right direction.

    But it’s clear the culture, worldwide, has been away from severe punishment (ignoring Ligue 1). It’s clear there’s been a rewarding of referees who avoid the big decisions and a punishment or abandonment of those who don’t. The fact that guys like Mateu and Cakir were able to maintain themselves at the top despite their penchant for big calls speaks to just how good and indispensable they made themselves. But there’s a line or limit for everyone. If I were psychoanalyzing Mateu tonight (I’ll borrow Joe’s PhD), I’d say Mateu realized this was his last or next to last World Cup match. And if he wanted one more, he needed to avoid red cards. Of course, there then reached the point where his avoidance of reds just led to more dissent and more erratic foul calls and more unseemliness. His decision to avoid what got him where he was led to his undoing. He had to transform into the referee who might steal the WC Final appointment because he knew “controversial Mateu” was never going to get there. In other words, he was stuck between a rock and a hard place on his final grand audition. He couldn’t be himself. And being someone else wasn’t authentic.

    And it’s all because of the culture created. Mateu was reffing to try to fit that culture. If he didn’t feel the need to do that, tonight would have gone a lot differently.
     
  14. TxSooner

    TxSooner Member

    Aug 12, 2011
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    This match went full CONCACAF That is quite an accomplishment at this level and stage of the tournament.
     
    JasonMa repped this.
  15. El Rayo Californiano

    Feb 3, 2014
  16. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Accusing a refereeing of cheating would get you suspended in most serious competitions. Look forward for the 5,000 CHF fine being levied in March or whatnot.

    Also… Argentina seems to have a gigantic chip on their shoulder right now. Croatia v Argentina feels like a disaster in the making.
     
  17. USSF REF

    USSF REF Guest

    I watched it again. Messi is upset that Lahoz doesn't give him a free kick, so he charges with pace and I don't know what he was looking for, either to hit the guy or get stuck in, but when it was being unexpectedly kicked over his head and with his arm completely down by his side he reaches up, taking it with his eyes and spikes the ball down.

    Is this an act of SPA? No. It does disrupt the opponent's possession, but it's not yet any where near promising. It interfered with an attack, just not a promising one (yet).

    Is this an act that is blatant or cynical? Yes. There is no reason for this handball in the game. He takes a clear decision to stop the game for some reason and I have my ideas but hesitate to speculate.

    Is every handball a caution? No. But then, is every hold of the jersey a caution? No.

    What types of holds are cautioned?
    1. Those that take away tactical advantage (space, speed, options - or off the ball to prevent a teammate from supporting). (This handball was not tactical.)
    2. Those that are blatant or cynical acts, even if they're 100 yards from goal or play is moving in the wrong direction. These are the plays that are completely against the spirit of the game and are not football plays. (This handball was like that.)

    Btw - these holds that are far from goal and are missing elements of SPA are still cautioned despite any specific language in the law describing non SPA holds as UB.

    As @Mikael_Referee noted above it was a "F the game foul." And likely derived from player frustration. Taking it further, he could have caught this ball if he wanted to and there is very little difference in actual impact on the game if he caught it or just spiked it.

    You want a name for such an act @BlueNosedRef? One could be Unsporting Behavior. Another could be showing a lack of respect for the game.

    So, for me, and this is just my opinion, this should be a caution at any level.

    I am willing to bet you a beer or a glass of whatever you're drinking that IF this clip is brought into training on FIFA Red they will list this as an expected caution. Btw, I never saw anything from IFAB that said referees couldn't caution for handballs

    Do we want a game where it's accepted that players can routinely raise their arm up above the head just spike any ball as long as there isn't a perceived promising attack?

    And it doesn't have to be any handball that gets a yellow, just the cynical ones (like this) where it's clear there was no other reason for the action. Like if he was jumping to head a ball and his arm was up there and he handled it as part of a legitimate attempt to play football, just a free kick is good.

    (I tried to upload video of it, but the files were too big, maybe someone can clip it.)
     
  18. StarTime

    StarTime Member+

    United States
    Oct 18, 2020
    Well it's a good thing Croatia vs Argentina isn't a World Cup matchup that has any history of being a shitshow!

    Wait a minute, why do I hear Ravshan Irmatov's music?
     
    JasonMa and El Rayo Californiano repped this.
  19. El Rayo Californiano

    Feb 3, 2014
    I'm watching Martinez give his interview and listening to what he says, and the image I have in my head is of him standing over Frenkie de Jong with the ball in his hands, talking trash in 75', just two minutes after Messi scored to put Argentina up 2-0.
     
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  20. mathguy ref

    mathguy ref Member+

    Nov 15, 2016
    TX
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    After some thought I scored it a 3. That is partly Mateu Lahoz and partly FIFA. In some weird way he did as well as any referee could have done under those conditions.

    Not issuing matching RCs was a travesty. Frankly VVD was just as deserving.

    At one point he just went into card them all mode and they didn’t care. He needed to be able to run someone and his hands were tied by the powers that be.

    It was sad and it put the game into disrepute. But I’m sure FIFA loved it.
     
  21. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Also Mateu gave the Netherlands “everything” yet the foul count was 30-18 the other way.
     
    JasonMa, acima, AremRed and 2 others repped this.
  22. El Rayo Californiano

    Feb 3, 2014
    Oops, Luuk not Frenkie. I can't leave that uncorrected!
     
  23. mathguy ref

    mathguy ref Member+

    Nov 15, 2016
    TX
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    I’ll add one last comment. I feel badly for whoever gets CRO-ARG. They will have no chance if it goes sideways. Every tool they have developed over the years to identify and handle these situations has been taken away from them. And every player knows it.
     
  24. soccerref69420

    soccerref69420 Member+

    President of the Antonio Miguel Mateu Lahoz fan cub
    Mar 14, 2020
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea DPR
    dude I called it
     
    Jon Stakes repped this.
  25. soccerref69420

    soccerref69420 Member+

    President of the Antonio Miguel Mateu Lahoz fan cub
    Mar 14, 2020
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea DPR
    What is it with these Dutch? Too good to be Luke and Frankie?
     
    Jon Stakes repped this.

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