How come the USA does not create world class players?

Discussion in 'Soccer in the USA' started by NewDadaCoach, Oct 1, 2022.

  1. BostonRed

    BostonRed Member+

    Oct 9, 2011
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I know all about international slots. There is no logic to MLS forcing clubs to sign *zero* players who need work visas.

    But in the current environment, if you cut the number of international slots, clubs will find ways to hurry up the Green Card process for players and you won't end up with more US connected players.
     
  2. jed tucker

    jed tucker New Member

    Barcelona
    Argentina
    Oct 17, 2022
    The answer is very simple, we mis-train the majority of young kids, ages 2-9.

    There are many other things wrong with the American system. I'm certain they are all listed in the responses here -- at this point, almost everyone knows them -- but only early mis-training is the root cause.

    Does anyone doubt that if we suddenly fixed this, and flooded our broken system with truly world class 10 year olds, that we would quickly learn to fix those problems? We're Americans after all. We have unlimited resources and we love to win.
     
    NewDadaCoach repped this.
  3. bustos21

    bustos21 Member

    Aug 13, 2004
    NJ
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    I read on this thread the job of MLS academies to develop players for the first team which I get that. What is the job of Non- MLS academies?
     
  4. Potowmack

    Potowmack Member+

    Apr 2, 2010
    Washington, DC
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    To make money and stay in business.
     
    jaykoz3 and Chesco United repped this.
  5. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    As long as club soccer is largely funded by middle/upper-middle/aspiring rich parents looking to get their kids onto a college soccer team, not much will change IMHO.
     
    NewDadaCoach and Chesco United repped this.
  6. NewDadaCoach

    NewDadaCoach Member

    Tottenham Hotspur
    United States
    Sep 28, 2019
    Most of those kids are aiming at college.
     
  7. bustos21

    bustos21 Member

    Aug 13, 2004
    NJ
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina

    Yup sounds about right making money and staying in business. Nothing to do with development of players.
     
  8. Potowmack

    Potowmack Member+

    Apr 2, 2010
    Washington, DC
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The bread and butter of most of these academies are middle-class and wealthier kids whose parents are willing to pay money in the hopes that their kid's athletic abilities will be the "hook" that gets them into a better college than they could get into based on grades and test scores alone. Parents and kids from places like Northern Virginia are having a major freakout because top colleges have gotten tougher to get into than when those parents were applying back in the '90's.

    So, there's a disconnect here. Some posters on this thread are trying to figure out how to get an academy in, say, McLean, Virginia, to be part of the USMNT development pipeline. But, the people who run those academies and that pay their salaries don't really care about that.
     
    song219 and bigredfutbol repped this.
  9. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #109 bigredfutbol, Nov 2, 2022
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2022
    There was an academy in McLean which lost it's certification and was shut down. The club my son was playing for at the time absorbed a bunch of those kids...and their very entitled parents.

    They were ALL about college soccer, and absolutely nothing else.
     
    Chesco United repped this.
  10. NewDadaCoach

    NewDadaCoach Member

    Tottenham Hotspur
    United States
    Sep 28, 2019
    Interesting thread on nepotism and Gregg.
    "Gregg was not hired because of his experience, Gregg was not hired because he is a good coach. Gregg was hired because his brother was in a position of power leftover from a previous regime that abused their role in the sport for personal gain by making their corruption legal."

    1600210519889018881 is not a valid tweet id
     
  11. Potowmack

    Potowmack Member+

    Apr 2, 2010
    Washington, DC
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Even assuming, for the sake of argument, that thread is correct, what does it have to do with player development in the US? The NT (and its coach) aren't in the business of player development.
     
    United1, jaykoz3 and BostonRed repped this.
  12. NewDadaCoach

    NewDadaCoach Member

    Tottenham Hotspur
    United States
    Sep 28, 2019
    There was a discussion somewhere about nepotism. Maybe I have the wrong thread.
    But yeah if you have too much nepotism it hurts development because you're not picking the best players (or coaches).
    So Gregg gets picked. Then he picks Jordan Morris for a valuable spot. Morris is obviously not the future of US Soccer (age and injuries). The spot could have gone to a young guy how could have gotten valuable experience to build for the future, so it was a wasted spot. Wasted on Jordan Morris due to nepotism, as an example.
     
  13. nonchalance

    nonchalance New Member

    Milan
    Italy
    Jan 29, 2023
    American youth soccer is an oligarchic system founded on business and ignorance. Many parents are unknowingly the gullible individuals who help feeding it.

    We live in an implicit and erroneous notion that problems can be solved without questioning the causes. Sometimes we don't want to do it, often we aren't able to, the fact remains that almost always we manage to confuse the effect with the cause.

    So, let's start from the beginning, from the way in which a footballer is formed, and in doing so in the interest of time let’s skip the pre-competitive age group, meaning the grassroots and youth academy (6-12) - although a parenthesis could also be opened here, but this is another story.

    At the age of 13 the boy "finally" enters the competitive arena. And here is when the real problems begin. In fact, youth competitive soccer in this country is a perverse machine founded on business, with much more harmful dynamics - paradoxically - than the professional level. Here, not only is the system constructed in such a way that profit is the priority, but to make matters worse, this occurs at the expense of quality and growth, both of the boys themselves, and of the US soccer movement in general.

    What do MLS Next, ECNL, USYS and EDP all have in common? Tiers and divisions. This takes us directly to the heart of the problem. The goal, in fact, from age 13 becomes to win in order to maintain or climb the divisions within the league. Legit, you will say. The problem is how and why.

    Starting from the assumption that youth soccer is part of a framework of enormous, generalized ignorance, many parents find fertile ground in it, and cause real harm to the kids, by auto-convincing themselves that their child is the new Ronaldo, Messi, Haaland, van Dijk, or just simply the new Donovan or Pulisic.

    This is the fundamental premise, because all the problems, trivially, derive from here, the parents. Convinced of having the rising star of international football in their household, or even just a potential professional player (odds 1 in 5-10,000), as a parent where do they take him? Simple, in the bigger leagues and in the best-known clubs which, as such, participate in top tier championships, out of state travel leagues, and tournaments, attended by scouts, agents, journalists, etc.

    It seems not to matter that the boy is the thirty-second in the hierarchies on that team, or that to take him to training the parent must travel 40-50 miles and spend hours in traffic, or that away games require spending thousands of dollars on flights and hotels. The important thing seems to be that he is on the “big” stage - and wearing the gear of a known “top” youth club.

    Perhaps then a scout or an agent will take notice, and all efforts will pay off (when pigs fly). To their part, the youth clubs, well aware of this mechanism, knowing that in tier/division A there are three times as many young players registered as in B, and that the same thing happens for B with respect to C, try in every way possible to maintain or climb to the next tier. As such, the reward is no longer the formation of footballers, or the process, as Marcelo Bielsa would say, the way in which the individual players and the team improve, but rather materially it is to win.

    And here we are at a crucial point: how do you get the win, especially at youth level? What is the fastest and most direct way to get to the finish line? Develop a technical game with creativity at the base working individually on the boy and globally on the team OR resort to the physical aspect, the bigger / more powerful / faster boys? Which one is the most profitable system in the short term?

    This brings us to the point where players are recruited if they are 4-5 inches taller than teammates and opponents, or pacier and more athletic than their peers, often recruited in questionable ways, because they are physically dominant and win matches on their own.

    In the most important age for the technical and tactical development of the boys, often clubs cease to work on them, with the required time and the necessary patience, but rather look to cross the finish line by taking the shortest route. Apparently, everyone is happy (except the boys, but often they don't even realize it): the clubs collect money, the parents dream, the coaches win, and thus the mechanism feeds itself, but then comes the time for the professional level.

    At this point the professional club that evaluates the boy doesn't care how many games he won at youth level and instead demands an already formed and ready to compete professional player. Just like a corporation which hires a newly graduated engineer will expect him to do a job and won’t care anymore about his college grades, in a similar fashion, a professional team will want players ready to win immediately. Only this time though is for real.

    And here lies the main issue. Many US raised footballers, or better said many potential footballers, are not ready when making the jump to pro. They don’t know how to dribble in the way is expected of a winger, or mark as it is expected by a pro defender, and often are not even able to control the ball as it’s expected by a pro footballer.

    As for the others, the big/athletic ones who thrived at youth level, they seldomly establish themselves at the pro level. They were uniquely the Trojan Horse to enter the city, meat for slaughter, the mean to an end of a system founded on business and winning.

    This is part of the reason why we regularly see MLS teams presenting starting lineups where 8-9 players are foreign. LAFC, the current champion of MLS being the best example. The matter is so bad that often MLS clubs will find better value and better footballers even in places like Costa Rica, Honduras and Panama, small countries with extremely limited resources but doing enough to produce MLS level players that are better equipped than 99% of elite American youth players.

    Ever wondered why the US soccer system hardly produces talents? Why one of only few American talents, Clint Dempsey, grew up in a trailer park in a small East Texas town, where he fell in love with soccer by playing pick-up games in the street with his siblings and Hispanic kids who had no access to big youth clubs? Why the national team is mostly composed of players who have been formed in Europe like Pulisic? Simple: because in US youth soccer there is not enough time, and youth clubs want to win immediately. In fact, what happens if a 14 year old boy tries to dribble and loses the ball and the opponent team scores on counterattack? Or if a central midfielder tries to control into space and loses the ball letting his defense exposed?

    These are aspects of the game that need to be trained, and that require a lot of patience. That winger will miss ten, twenty, thirty dribbles before mastering how and when to do them; the other will miss a touch on the ball hundred times before learning to do it like Iniesta. And so I ask you, if Iniesta had been born in the US and played youth soccer for one of many big clubs in this system and not in Barcelona, where since eight year old they teach you to play that way, not caring whatsoever about winning or the result, would he have become Iniesta?

    At youth level “play to win” is synonymous of the death of creativity, personality to take players on 1 v 1, and talent, and if we add the pressure, and the responsibilities a teenager is overloaded with on a soccer field, and that “dribbles and creative plays have to be tried only when strictly necessary” it is a recipe for disaster. As why should a 13-year-old know when or what is strictly necessary? Often at that age they don’t even fully understand their position but here too we have the obsession of formations and positions, and we keep lowering the age at which the players must play under the pressure of tactical responsibilities.

    Afterall, regardless of the above, talent cannot be taught but rather it can be indulged. And it’s not only the youth soccer programs and academies’ fault. Look for instance at what happens in Spain, with no need to even mention Brazil or Argentina, considering US is much more similar to Europe on a social/economic level. You will see that at the beaches, in the small-town squares, kids play soccer. In the summer, you will not be able to find a single Spanish beach where soccer is not played, a sacred tradition that just doesn’t exist here.

    Let’s be clear, I am not trying to change reality and the country’s culture, but highlight how by playing on the street the best talents have been formed, free of expressing themselves, without pressure to win, and forced to adapt themselves to contingent circumstances (in an alley or in a park the ball never bounces in the same way, but every time you have to know how to control it). Here instead, we expect the kids to develop the same amount of talent by only playing on nice fields, when it’s not raining and when the weather conditions are ideal. Why are trainings and games cancelled when the field is wet or it’s raining? To preserve the ideal conditions of the fields? This does not happen in Europe or South America.

    Technical quality cannot be considered secondary. Physical strength, which perhaps characterizes the more developed children, will eventually disappear and level to that of the rest. We must consider the youth sector as a cradle where we build the talents of the future, as is done in Spain or in other countries. If you have a lightweight boy with a great technique and understanding of the game, you cannot discard him or play him less and favor a more physically developed one. To the contrary, you must work on his development and wait for him to catch up physically. American youth soccer needs to change. What is the point of only focusing on the more physically mature kids within an age group to win a tournament or a league title?

    So, let's all take a step back and start from the basics. Let me launch here a revolutionary proposal, which the professionals in the sector will have the pleasure of mocking but I have the duty to propose. Let’s abolish tiers and divisions up to a certain age; or at least let’s find the way for winning not to become a constant nuisance and the primary objective.

    Enough with greedy club directors and win at all costs stressed-out coaches. Let’s work on the boys with patience, let’s bring this sport back to where it belongs, and that is passion, and give everyone their needed time: to the coaches the time to teach soccer for the medium-long term development, to the boys the time to learn without excessive pressure or responsibilities, and to the youth clubs the time to work on development, which will be rewarded by training compensation if they can place at the pro levels the boys on whom they have invested time, commitment and energy.

    Finally, an appeal, from the heart to many parents: I understand you. You pour out all your frustrations on your children, but I understand you. One out of thousands makes it and so why not your son, he is so good and then come on... He's your child, he's the best. Maybe if you push him a little he can crown yours .., sorry, his dream! So take him to the biggest and most famous youth club. After all, in the small youth club by where you live, a good player will never be noticed (are you sure of this? Plenty of stories around the world tell us otherwise, but don’t worry about it). Maybe he will have a little less fun, but if you want to get there, sacrifices must be made.

    It doesn’t matter if the coach at the youth team near home does it for pure passion, if he prefers to work with the boys at cost of going home to his family late at night, if he is desperately in love with the ball. An elite youth club is elite, they have the best professionals and the right people: it is the perfect stage for your child after all. So take him there to train, grind hundreds of miles, get stuck in traffic. Waste gas, money, time, energy. Park, and wait while watching the training. Do not make friends with the other parents who are your competition. In the meantime, talk to someone that matters, intercept the coach off the field, make contacts, discuss with an agent: you are chasing his dream, you have to make sacrifices.

    But I want to ask you a question. Assuming your child might actually make it, have you ever talked to him? Deeply, not superficially. Are you sure that this is his dream, or that it always has been? Yes, in short, that it is not your aspiration, the one you glued on him years ago, when you saw that he had "talent" ... After all, most kids in US are introduced to soccer at an early age, it should be a true rebel in his blood, your son, to send you to hell at twelve. And then, are you sure that you can exploit the system and that you are not the gullible idiots who help feed it, that rotten system?

    So take a step back: be revolutionary in your own small way. Stop pouring broken dreams on your children and forget about those "elite" youth clubs in which they will have to share the playing time with thirty other indoctrinated kids. Forget the coaches with drool in their mouths, forced to win and all those who populate that version of youth soccer.

    Give up the big club gear and raise your son in the local youth club, with a coach who takes to heart your son’s growth in an environment that, if you are lucky, will still be based on passion. You will see that the boy will improve more in this environment than in the "elite" club: it seems strange, but it is so. And if he is really good, rest assured that someone will talk about it, someone else will notice, and in the meantime you will have saved hundreds of hours of traffic, thousands of dollars of gas, and above all you will not have made useless, indeed harmful, sacrifices. For today mass is ended; go in peace.
     
    Valudiaz, ko242 and bigredfutbol repped this.
  14. NewDadaCoach

    NewDadaCoach Member

    Tottenham Hotspur
    United States
    Sep 28, 2019
    Chesco United and Hexa repped this.
  15. Midwest

    Midwest Member

    Pro-MLS, Aston Villa
    Jun 29, 2014
    United States
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  16. Master O

    Master O Member+

    Jul 7, 2006
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Three reasons:

    1) NFL
    2) NBA
    3) MLB
     
  17. NewDadaCoach

    NewDadaCoach Member

    Tottenham Hotspur
    United States
    Sep 28, 2019
    Yeah, but still you would think with all the soccer players here that we would have created at least one world class player.
    To me, it seems to be more systemic. Ie, something about the coaching and club system here.
    My theory is that our kids don't play enough and also are repressed psychologically because our system is coach-centric and prevents kids from really exploring the outer boundaries of their creativity.
     
  18. BOSNAINTER

    BOSNAINTER Member

    krajina
    Bosnia and Herzegovina
    Feb 17, 2006
    Nat'l Team:
    Bosnia-Herzegovina
    they do not play streetfootball. most people learn like that and still play in club youth.
     
    NewDadaCoach repped this.
  19. Elninho

    Elninho Member+

    Sacramento Republic FC
    United States
    Oct 30, 2000
    Sacramento, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Have you considered why the system is what it is? Why the clubs system looks the way it does? Why we don't have a lot of pickup soccer?

    The problem mostly comes down to low population density and limited transportation.

    Pickup soccer happens spontaneously -- yes, even in the US -- wherever a place has enough soccer players that you can go to a park and reliably find a game going on. Problem is, most places in the US don't have kids playing pickup soccer because the population is too spread out and most kids don't live where they can get to a regular pickup game without a car. I wasn't able to start playing pickup soccer regularly until I reached the age where I could drive to the nearest recurring pickup games. High-level youth soccer costs more money to run than in other countries because teams need to draw players from larger catchment areas and therefore have to travel much farther to play games. And the lack of pro academies comes from the way professional and amateur sports evolved in the US, which is in turn mostly a product of geography.

    The MLS academies are the first effort to disrupt this ecosystem. But there's a lot of inertia, and a lot of that inertia comes from geography and transportation infrastructure.
     
  20. gray2cm

    gray2cm Member

    Aug 11, 2012
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Couldn’t we solve this problem by creating more public spaces to play? It’s really not hard to find a basketball hoop in the US, whether you’re in rural NC or a bigger city. Recently, my city of Silver Spring, Maryland started installing a few indoor soccer courts that are roughly the size of a tennis court but have nets, etc.

    I wonder what would happen if a ton of those went up in places like Detroit, Miami, Houston, Phoneix, San Antonio, etc. as well as in more rural communities around the country.
     
    NewDadaCoach repped this.
  21. Elninho

    Elninho Member+

    Sacramento Republic FC
    United States
    Oct 30, 2000
    Sacramento, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I know that at least some MLS and USL cities are doing that. I've noticed both LA Galaxy and Sacramento Republic partnering with their cities to build futsal courts in parks in the last several years -- those are just the two US clubs I pay closest attention to, so I'm sure there are others.
     
    NewDadaCoach repped this.
  22. BOSNAINTER

    BOSNAINTER Member

    krajina
    Bosnia and Herzegovina
    Feb 17, 2006
    Nat'l Team:
    Bosnia-Herzegovina
    #122 BOSNAINTER, Jun 18, 2023
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2023
    american mentality everything here is disected when it comes to football. tactics positioning and other things while other sports just go with the flow. people in usa needs to bring creativity to american football. in rest of the world is there here is like we play this formation and that is it, we just pass ball around, we shoot long balls we make these striker runs when we get bal in midfield we do only this or this when opposition is there and there it is rigid. i mean this is not american sports that you need 90 minutes of coaching or giving you tablets and drawing plays and code words or what ever. this is sport where you can think for your self on field as well and not every time you trap or recieve the ball you got to look to sidelines to get directions what to do next
     
    NewDadaCoach repped this.
  23. Potowmack

    Potowmack Member+

    Apr 2, 2010
    Washington, DC
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    There’s no MLS team where coaches manage the game like you’re claiming happens.

    And MLS has plenty of non-American coaches.
     
    bigredfutbol repped this.
  24. NewDadaCoach

    NewDadaCoach Member

    Tottenham Hotspur
    United States
    Sep 28, 2019
    MLS has a ton of foreign players. Even USL and college is recruiting more foreign players.
     
  25. NewDadaCoach

    NewDadaCoach Member

    Tottenham Hotspur
    United States
    Sep 28, 2019
    You're right. There is not enough density.

    Another thing is - the clubs should make money by selling players. This will pay for the development costs, instead of it being paid by parents. This is why it's not affordable. In south America the clubs make money by selling players to Europe. So they can pick kids from the poor areas; they can focus on picking the best talent and developing them because they ultimately want to find the next Neymar who they can sell to Europe. But in the USA, the parents pay the fees. They spend $5k, $10k, even $15k or more per year. If the parents travel to the tournaments then it's alot of extra cost. Thousands more. Sure, if you're wealthy then it's not a burden, and you can make a vacation out of it. I'm gonna aim my kid for an MLS academy since they cover the costs.
     

Share This Page