Match 57: Netherlands vs. Argentina [QF]

Discussion in 'World Cup 2022 - Knockout Stage' started by Paul Calixte, Dec 3, 2022.

  1. Kamtedrejt

    Kamtedrejt Member+

    Internazionale Milano
    Albania
    Mar 14, 2017
    Hamburg
    Club:
    FC Internazionale Milano
    Nat'l Team:
    Albania
    I'm not sure whether I understood you. Please enlighten me.

    Are you saying by that that Argentina has a higher ceiling than the Netherlands?

    Why is there such a big gap between Argentina's low and their high?
     
  2. Iranian Monitor

    Iranian Monitor Member+

    Aug 18, 2004
    Nat'l Team:
    Iran
    Yes, because Argentina has a very special player who can turn things around almost single-handedly. If Messi is on fire, Argentina can still look very good. If Messi is shut out or struggling otherwise, then Argentina as a team can drop significantly.
     
  3. Xylophone

    Xylophone Member

    Fiorentina
    Jan 30, 2018
    I haven't seen much of them since 2019, but wasn't Scaloni praised constructing an Argentine side that plays well as a team? I think if we're talking about their maximum potential, we have to take into consideration that their cohesiveness can be much better. I get that they were shaken after the opening game and had to go into "survival mode". But I thought the game against Australia would be a clean slate, where they show the kind of play that I was expecting going into this tournament. A bit disappointed that it didn't happen, especially as you couldn't have asked for an easier (on paper) R16 opponent. I'm just confused as to how good late-2022 Argentina actually is. What was asked about Qatar may well be asked for Argentina: Did they peak to soon?
     
  4. Iranian Monitor

    Iranian Monitor Member+

    Aug 18, 2004
    Nat'l Team:
    Iran
    #29 Iranian Monitor, Dec 8, 2022
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2022
    When you have a player like Messi in the starting lineup, the idea that you play well "as a team" generally means you have Messi to orchestrate your teamwork and he is doing a good job doing so. Otherwise, Messi clocks the most walking and if he isn't there to act as a focal point of your game, he wouldn't be starting at all. While I agree Argentina has so far failed to really impress in this tournament, I wouldn't dismiss the possibility of them doing so against Holland. Messi still has enough left for him to turn things around for Argentina. But if Messi doesn't have a very good game, I think Holland would probably not lose (game to go to pks) or even win.

    p.s.
    The graphic below is interesting. It shows the players who received the most passes for their team under pressure. Besides Messi, Di Maria and Fernandez are also in the graphic for Argentina.
    [​IMG]
     
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  5. Kamtedrejt

    Kamtedrejt Member+

    Internazionale Milano
    Albania
    Mar 14, 2017
    Hamburg
    Club:
    FC Internazionale Milano
    Nat'l Team:
    Albania
    #30 Kamtedrejt, Dec 8, 2022
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2022
    I think you overstate the impact of a single player albeit still world class for the outcome of a match. In modern football good tactics and cohesive play as a team are much more decisive than the individual brilliance of a star. It's after all no coincidence that it's been years since one of Messi or Ronaldo has won the CL. Heck up to the other day none of them had even scored a single goal in a World Cup knockout stage game. Messi can't win you single handedly a match against a team like the Netherlands. His suporting cast has to step up. Other than the second half against a weak Mexican team I haven't seen anything great from Argentina at this World Cup.

    I don't agree that Argentina's ceiling is higher than that of the Netherlands'.

    I rate the Dutch's best performance in this tournament (3-1 over the USA) higher than anything Argentina has shown so far.

    And unlike you I believe it's actually the Dutch who have more up in their sleeve than Argentina.

    Argentina was and still is just overhyped by international media and not anywhere close to the level of the likes of Brazil, France, England, Portugal and even the Netherlands.
     
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  6. Christina99

    Christina99 Member+

    Argentina
    Sep 22, 2013
    Buenos Aires
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    #31 Christina99, Dec 8, 2022
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2022
    Argentina from 2019 to 2022 has been great. They havent lost a single match in 3 1/2 years. And Scaloni actually constructed a team that plays well, not relies exclusevly on Messi, and every player plays their part. To illustrate this i suggest you to watch 3 matches you can find in you tube: Argentina- Brasil (Copa America final 2021, 1-0), Argentina- Uruguay (eliminatorias, oct 2021, 3-0) and Argentina-Italy (finalissima 2022, 3-0). Three world class rivals and ARG beating every one of those with class, playing as a team and without relying only on the brillance of Messi.


    The problem with this WC is that we lost some key players (namely Lo Celso, who was KEY to our midfield and #1 in associating with Messi, and to a lesser extent Nico G and Correa) and other KEY players are coming from injures (Di Maria, Paredes, Cuti, Lautaro). And fundamental players like RDP are coming from an off couple of months (and now injured)

    Because all of this we kinda had to reconstruct in one week to prepare to the WC. We had the meltdown vs saudi arabia, benched the players that were so so due to injuries, and rebulit another younger, better team, with youngsters Enzo, Mc Allister and Julian at the center of it (20, 21, 22 y/old players). Before WC they barely played for the team (Enzo was called only ONCE before the wc) and now they are starters. May i say they are awesome. Enzo and Julian have been GREAT this Wc, and Mc very good.

    But it is a new team, new tactic approach, different players. Because we came to this WC with 50% of our starters injured. So we look "weaker" and "more lost" than our reality, cause we had to rebuild from ashes. The scaloneta team that never lost was pretty solid.

    Also, ARG dominated the AUS game and the only reason it didnt won by more goals is Lautaro. Messi created 2 GOLDEN IMPOSSIBLE TO MISS chances and Lautaro failed them. Cause he is injured.

    So, anyways,injuries have screwed us but we are scrapping through and the magic is still there somewhere.
     
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  7. Iranian Monitor

    Iranian Monitor Member+

    Aug 18, 2004
    Nat'l Team:
    Iran
    We disagree a bit, but not as much. Argentina hasn't impressed me either. Where we disagree is this: I think the best of Argentina, such as in their demolition of Italy, rates higher than the best of Holland.
     
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  8. Kamtedrejt

    Kamtedrejt Member+

    Internazionale Milano
    Albania
    Mar 14, 2017
    Hamburg
    Club:
    FC Internazionale Milano
    Nat'l Team:
    Albania
    I suggest you to watch the highlights of the 6-1 demolition by the Netherlands against Turkey in WCQ and the 4-1 thrashing away at Belgium in the Nations League.

    I think after that you might revise your opinion.
     
  9. Iranian Monitor

    Iranian Monitor Member+

    Aug 18, 2004
    Nat'l Team:
    Iran
    I saw the game against Belgium and I rate Holland's best highly enough (90). Just not as high as Argentina's best (95) which we haven't seen at this tournament. But Belgium IMO aren't defensively strong and without Courtois who didn't play in that game, they don't have a keeper who can cover up that weakness. I know stats don't really tell the story always, but lets compare shots/SOG stats from Belgium v Holland 1:4 with Italy v Argentina 0:3 and also Holland 3 USA 1 with Argentina 2 Mexico 0 in this World Cup.

    Belgium v Holland 1:4
    Shots (SOG) 13(6) v 15(7) in favor of Holland
    Italy v Argentina 0:3
    Shots (SOG) 7(3) v 17(10) in favor of Argentina
    -------
    Holland 3 USA 1
    Shots (SOG) 11(6) v 17(8) in favor of USA
    Argentina 2 Mexico 0
    Shots (SOG) 5(2) v 4(1) in favor of Argentina
     
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  10. Mean Machine

    Mean Machine Member+

    May 23, 2018
    An Italy that didn't even qualify for the World Cup? I am an Italy fan, and we have been not good since Euro 2020. We have been suffering with injuries, but I also think changes need to be made. We cannot play the same tactics without Chiellini, Spinnazola, Chiesa, and Insigne.

    Honestly I am not even a big fan of Mancini and don't think he is the best coach for our team. I'd love to have Conte back. We won the Euros, but in the knockouts, we did not play super well and struggled to score goals (kind of like Spain). I think if we played differently like Conte style, we would've been a much more dominant team at Euro 2020.
     
  11. Iranian Monitor

    Iranian Monitor Member+

    Aug 18, 2004
    Nat'l Team:
    Iran
    I liked Italy (with Chiesa especially, after group stage) under Mancini in Euro 2020/21. I also liked Italy under Conte. But once Italy's undefeated streak under Mancini was broken, it seemed everything including injuries conspired to sink Italy very low.
     
  12. Mean Machine

    Mean Machine Member+

    May 23, 2018
    The fact is, we really had trouble scoring in the knockout stages. Immobile is really not a good player but Raspadori was still young and inexperience and we didn't really have a choice but to play him. We really cannot continue playing the way Mancini has us playing with the players we have. We need to change our tactics and game plan all together.
     
  13. johnbarley2

    johnbarley2 Member+

    Jan 19, 2013
    Why would you not read much into them? They were WC matches against solid sides and Netherlands played terribly. Not friendlies. Certainly relevant.
     
  14. johnbarley2

    johnbarley2 Member+

    Jan 19, 2013
    And yet the last 2 competitive matches against Brazil which were played within the last 1.5 years ended up 1-0 Argentina and 0-0 draw.
     
  15. johnbarley2

    johnbarley2 Member+

    Jan 19, 2013
    Argentina has been very good defensively. But I can see them get lured into recklessness by the disciplined Dutch team.

    Match against Mexico was their worst performance. Much better against Poland and Australia. Seems Kamtredjet just looks at the scorelines.
     
  16. Kamtedrejt

    Kamtedrejt Member+

    Internazionale Milano
    Albania
    Mar 14, 2017
    Hamburg
    Club:
    FC Internazionale Milano
    Nat'l Team:
    Albania
    I mixed it up. The Poland game (especially the second half it) was Argentina's best showing so far.
     
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  17. Kamtedrejt

    Kamtedrejt Member+

    Internazionale Milano
    Albania
    Mar 14, 2017
    Hamburg
    Club:
    FC Internazionale Milano
    Nat'l Team:
    Albania
    I consider these outliers. If Argentina were to face Brazil at this tournament I'd be very confident in picking a Brazilian win.
     
  18. Kamtedrejt

    Kamtedrejt Member+

    Internazionale Milano
    Albania
    Mar 14, 2017
    Hamburg
    Club:
    FC Internazionale Milano
    Nat'l Team:
    Albania
    The Netherlands used the group stage to figure out a thing or two in their selcetions and get for not fully fit players like Depay more minutes in their legs so they will be ready once the big clashes arrive.

    The actual World Cup for the Dutch started starting the Round of 16. And this is where we can judge the performance levels of the Dutch national team much better.
     
  19. johnbarley2

    johnbarley2 Member+

    Jan 19, 2013
    Ridiculous. Had Senegal won, as they seemed likely, or Ecuador scored 1 more goal, Netherlands would have been out like other big squads, eg. Germany, Belgium.

    This was not an easy group. I'm sure matches against Ecuador and Senegal were taken seriously.

    As for fitness, a lot of teams have dealt with that.
     
  20. Brilliant Dutch

    Brilliant Dutch Member+

    Ajax
    Netherlands
    Oct 14, 2013
    Amsterdam, Holland
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Anyone else get the butterflies before big games like this??

    I really hate that feeling :barefoot:
     
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  21. Hayaka

    Hayaka Member+

    Jun 21, 2009
    San Francisco North Bay, Bel Marin Keys
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Denmark
    For us neutrals it’s just exciting, like looking forward to a good movie.:x3:
     
  22. Philip J. Fry

    Philip J. Fry Member+

    Mexico
    Jun 12, 2013
    Club:
    Borussia Dortmund
    I could see that.
     
  23. celito

    celito Moderator
    Staff Member

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    #48 celito, Dec 8, 2022
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2022
    That's a bit of a convenient analysis. Specially since they played an extremely naive American team in their “first actual WC game “
     
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  24. celito

    celito Moderator
    Staff Member

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Scaloni supposedly tested with a 3 man back if Di Maria can't play and is pissed that his practice info got leaked. Real or gamesmanship ?
     
  25. pipinogol

    pipinogol Member+

    May 20, 2016
    Club:
    Cary RailHawks U23
    He's pissed with the leaks that De Paul has some discomfort, not with the tactics. That he can play back 3 is obvious to anyone who has watched the games.
     
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