Let’s compare them but not based on WC ( favourably to Diego ) or stats ( Leo ). I want to compare them ONLY in their best years, let’s say Diego 79-88 vs Leo 2008-2019. In term of: Peak Consistency Skills Club NT Leadership In skills we focus on: Finishing Passing Dribbling Vision Flair Speed Header Freekick Off ball Defensive contribution Many important question here: How great Diego would be in super team or he wouldn’t be as dominant because other superstars won’t give up their influence ? Would Messi be able to adapt to play in weaker team than Barca ? If Diego play today would he play higher, has better stats cause he don’t have to create every play and could focuse on scoring ? If they play in the same era, who would be better and what if they will play in the same team ? Could they give their best then ? How big different is between them in term of vision Passing dribbling for Diego and in term of scoring for Leo ? Or there is no difference ? Is Messi realy never shone against best NT ? Was Maradona really consistent game by game and has his WC 86 form in League or club cups ? Let’s compare them ONLY in their best years Your move @Vegan @Puck @carlito86 @sexybeast @leadleader And more
Peak - Messi. Messi, for a period of time was the best goalscorer, playmaker and dribbler in the world, while playing in the same league as an all time great goalscorer Cristiano. Maradona at no point was able to do all of that for sustained period of time even compared to merely good players. I am no talking about 50 goals in a season, because that would be impossible in his circumstance but about 15+ non penalty league goals in Serie A. Consistency - Messi Skills - very vague category so hard to tell and rather irrelevant when the output and impact is what matters. Club - Messi NT - Maradona has had some of his most remarkable performances for Argentina, while Messi's best games are for Barcelona, but overall, Messi NT career is easily better. Leadership - Maradona. His aura did make others perform better. Messi became so great that his teammates at times would rely and expect too much from him, which Messi should have recognized, but often didn't... but Messi is a better teammate and can play without ego / without need to be the difference maker. Finishing - Messi Passing - Maradona Dribbling - Messi Vision - Maradona more creative, but Messi more consistent, therefore effective Flair - Maradona i guess Speed - Messi Header . equal Free kick - whatever stats say Off ball - Messi by a landslide, but sometimes he overthinks himself. Defensive contribution - Messi How great Diego would be in super team or he wouldn’t be as dominant because other superstars won’t give up their influence ? - Maradona wouldn't be able to get system created around him so he wouldn't be as dominant. Would Messi be able to adapt to play in weaker team than Barca ? - yes if he had years to get used to it. If Diego play today would he play higher, has better stats cause he don’t have to create every play and could focuse on scoring ? - not even close. He wasn't even dominant in terms of stats in his own team.. but Maradona would do crazy assists tallies. If they play in the same era, who would be better and what if they will play in the same team ? Could they give their best then ? - Messi... Messi would be better in the same team, but they wouldn't be able to play together. How big different is between them in term of vision Passing dribbling for Diego and in term of scoring for Leo ? Or there is no difference ? - Maradona is more creative, but Messi more effective in any other sense. Is Messi realy never shone against best NT ? - False. Messi's WC18's qualifiers are some of the best performances on NT level in modrn football and Copa16 one of the best individual performances in history. Was Maradona really consistent game by game and has his WC 86 form in League or club cups ? - No, he wasn't. He had never replicated the WC86 performance
@Sexy Beast Great post, thanks. How do You see comparision like that between Messi and Pele ? Those two are Your TOP 2 ALL TIME I guess
i don't know enough about Pele to go into the same depths.. I know tho that Brazil won WC62 without him and would have won WC70 without him. I know that Pele was way ahead of everyone else in his era and perhaps was never truly tested in his career. Talent wise pretty similar to Messi. Messi is better in dribbling, ball control agility, acceleration, but Pele compensated that by being more athletic and stronger and he seemed to have general football IQ way ahead of everyone else at the time. They truly are the two greatest players of all time and I don't see necessity (or a way) to go further than that.
Yeah, Pele was way ahaed of everyone in his era, truly of this world . Which other players You have in TOP 5 of all time and why ?
Overall i would say messi ranks higher all-time than maradona but pelé vs messi is a better comparison.
Those three are the most ridiculous. Messi's NT isn't even close to Maradona's (how is it easily better?). Maradona was a great header of the ball and he regularly used it skill in his game despite his short height. Messi has one significant head action in his entire career — yes, it happened in the CL final, but it's still the skill that he simply isn't using (he does well enough without it anyway). Defensive contribution is another weird one. Post-Pep Messi is a complete passenger while under Pep he was already eased out in terms of his defensive contribution. Maradona always fought for the ball, it was in his nature.
Longevity, consistency and the whole body of work for Argentina. Messi has 3rd most goals on international level (90 and counting. 34 more than 2nd Batistuta. 56 more than Maradona), 2nd most assists in history. WC golden ball (2014), Copa america best player x2 (should have been 3 times. Only two players have achieved that: Seoane and Francescoli. Maradona has 0.). The most assists in Copa america history (17). Argentina also won 1991 and 1993 Copa americas (during Maradona's prime) without him in the squad. The most dribbles in WC history (107. Maradona has 104). Messi in 2014: 73 dribbles attempted, 43 completed, 63% Cruyff in 1974: 55 attempts, 34 completed, 61,8% Maradona in 1986: 90 attempts, 53 completed, 58,9% Messi's 2014 WC performance is much closer to Maradona's 1986 performance than people think and that's literally the only thing that Maradona has over Messi on the international (and overall) level. We can go even further back. Messi won WC under 20 in 2005 and won the best player of the tournament. Also won Olympics in 2008. This is the thing with Messi playing for Argentina. His international career is instinctively compared to overromanticized and unreacheable heights of Maradona's 1986 fairytale story and to Messi's insane standards on the club level. Once you recognize that instinct within yourself, put it aside for a moment and look at what Messi has done on the international level, you will realize that Messi has been great for Argentina for a veeery long time. Exceptional body of work. Messi has many great headers thruoghout his career while mostly playing in the system that doesn't incentivize crosses. And I believe Messi has in total more goals scored with head than Maradona. Depends on how you look at it. Pep era lasted for 4 years during which Messi was exceptional at pressing. Without a doubt, peak Messi (early 20s) is a much better defender than any version of Maradona. Messi's tactical understanding of what to do and his ability to do it (winning duels as well) is better. Post-Pep Messi is different. What people don't understand and don't take in consideration is that Messi's lack of defensive contribution is a managment of energy. If you are manager and you want to get the best out of Messi on the pitch, you don't make him ferociously defend, because then you are taking away from his offensive contribution. Messi doesn't have impressive stamina and his playing style is energy expensive so it makes no sense to waste his talent in defense. It makes sense for him to do the minimal work defensively so he can do what he does best, especially if you think about, a whole season, the whole career. And certainly Messi has avoided some serious injuries throughout his career by avoiding unecessary defensive work and effort. That's just smart football. but even then Messi has brilliant all around defensive performances. The first that comes to mind is game vs Tottenham away 2018, phenomenal performance. As well as brilliant, clutch defensive moments: - Ucl R16 - must win game to qualify for WC18 Once he smells blood he is so good at anticipating and winning duels: - you can see her that when it matters, he plays well enough defense.
It has to be mentioned their goals+assists tallies should also be identical on 15 apiece This is not a goal Not in 1986 and not in 2022 What’s fair is fair Maradona should’ve been greater then Messi arguably even Pele but I believe he fell well short of his true potential due to bad career choices (moving to la liga in the early 1980s was a bad move) and all the ********ing around he did with drugs that shortened his career
Maradona didn’t live up to his potential and his career resume reflects this perfectly He should’ve featured in the 1978 Argentina WC campaign even as a unused sub like Ronaldo in 1994 That’s not his fault but that’s something that could’ve boosted his legacy a bit 2 World Cup trophies+1 final is something that would’ve brought him closer to Pele in the minds of people And he should’ve joined a European heavyweight team as soon as he arrived here A Liverpool maybe Those years in Barcelona were wasted and forgotten no matter how great he was on a individual level The career of a footballer is short and in Maradonas case was made even shorter by his lifestyle decisions You can’t blame him moving for the money(2 world record fees paid by obscure/struggling teams) He came from abject poverty and did what anyone would probably do in his situation I’m not sure who he had around him in terms of influences but it’s difficult planning for a legacy He played for 4 different clubs by the time he was 24 years old in 1984(Argentinos juniors,Boca,Barca and Napoli) That is a rarity for most ATG players His career lacked the stability of most ATG players,he lacked the discipline and arguably the longevity aswell He should’ve still been world class entering World Cup 1994 but he was far from it Maradona was a flawed genius A player With arguably more technical ingenuity then any ATG but with more flaws then any ATG aswell
Cristiano is my favourite followed by Maradona and then Messi Objectively id place all of them in the top 5 with Pele leading the pack because he won everything there is to win in football as the main protagonist
I didn’t know that Diego is one of Your favourites. Are You born in 1986 ? If so You have missed his Best years I’m curious why do You like him more than Messi or Pele ? Or think he should be greater than them
98 goals in 172 apps for Argentina. 64 goals more than Maradona. Copa America 2021, something Maradona never won and now World Cup 22 and the only player to win 2 golden balls in history of football, Lionel Messi. Is that enough?
Did I hear European heavyweight? If he was allowed to join us in 1982, he'd be the GOAT already. Although, instead of a crack head, Kenny Sansom would probably have turned him into a rabid alcoholic
When you look at their performances — not really, no. Just Cristiano isn't among the greatest international players of all-time despite holding an all-time goalscoring record. Also, it's a bit disingenuous to quote my post from November the 15th with Messi winning World Cup as tournament's best player, it certainly had elevated his status quite a bit (not to the point of beating Maradona for Argentina but way, way closer). I do consider Messi to be better-placed for GOAT status than Maradona overall after this win though due to his club career. For me it's Pelé & Messi tied for 1st and Maradona next to them.
now, literally Maradona has a single goal over Messi in entire international career. Messi has never had the goal of the century moment against tough opponent like England 1986 at WC. That's it, the only argument now... everything else Messi has done better and for longer.
Peak - Very different peaks, but at the best in their respective types. Messi was the ultimate special weapon, Maradona was the ultimate underdog leader Consistency - Messi. But Maradona's consistency is underrated, he's probably not as consistent as other ATGs of this category, but he had a good 10+ years at the very top Skills - Maradona, easily. The only thing Messi is actually better than Maradona is his weak foot use, and while Messi is a better pure finisher, it isn't something Maradona lacked Club - Different again. But pure awards wise, Messi gets the edge, although Maradona's achievement isn't easily measured NT - Very close, I'll personally give it to Maradona Leadership - Maradona, by a country mile SKILLS Finishing - Messi, but once again Maradona was elite as well Passing - Maradona, but in terms of passing technique, Messi is quite close Dribbling - In the purest sense of dribbling, Messi is the best ever close control dribbler. Maradona is quite close Vision - Maradona, and this elevates him despite Messi being close in passing ability. I don't actually have Messi in my Top 3 Argentine's ever in terms of pure playmaking vision Flair - Maradona, easily Speed - Messi, but closer than you'd think Header - Maradona Freekick - Maradona Off ball - As a forward, Messi, as a midfielder, Maradona Defensive Contribution - Maradona, peak Messi is quite good as well How great Diego would be in super team or he wouldn’t be as dominant because other superstars won’t give up their influence ? Diego always played well in super teams whenever he had the chance, look at him bossing the games when he played with World XIs alongside Platini/Zico etc Would Messi be able to adapt to play in weaker team than Barca ? Yes, for sure. But his influence wouldn't be as great as Maradona's in the way Maradona influenced weaker teams. Messi would be the best player individually and leave his teammates in the dust, but he wouldn't be able to enhance his teammates like Diego did If Diego play today would he play higher, has better stats cause he don’t have to create every play and could focuse on scoring ? Imo, any ATG becomes better if transported now because they'd have access to all the advancements and improvements in the game. Imagine Diego with proper fitness regimes and no access to recreational drugs If they play in the same era, who would be better and what if they will play in the same team ? Could they give their best then ? Depends on the era, but yes they can play together. Messi and Maradona are actually quite distinct players despite their apparent similarities. Messi is on the RW in my All time XI and Maradona is the #10 How big different is between them in term of vision Passing dribbling for Diego and in term of scoring for Leo ? Or there is no difference ? Maradona is a GOAT tier playmaker who can be an elite finisher, Messi is a GOAT tier finisher who can be an elite playmaker. What elevates Maradona's vision/playmaking is his ability to enhance the build up on his own, Messi is a much more instinctive finisher and hence is also a greater volume score Is Messi really never shone against best NT ? He has, but not to the level of Diego. Even in his best WC, there are question marks to his opposition and how he played at times. Messi's 2022 WC is arguably in the Top 10 greatest WC performances, Maradona's is arguably the GOAT WC Performance Was Maradona really consistent game by game and has his WC 86 form in League or club cups ? Although he never had the decade or so stretch Messi did, Maradona was very consistent in his peak years and was instrumental in almost, if not all, tournament wins of his career, club and country
I do agree Maradona edges Messi in playmaking for few reasons, but it is unfair to equate Maradona's finishing with Messi's playmaking. After all, Messi is still arguably one of the greatest playmakers in history of football even if he is inferior to Maradona. The same can't be said for Maradona's finishing ability.. to call Messi an elite playmaker is a huge understatment.
Maradona's finishing ability was elite, to think it was anything less because he didn't have prolific numbers is ignoring his nature as a player and the nature of the teams he played in which actually brought down his goals tally. When he was allowed the freedom to score freely, he averaged nearly a goal a game in his time at Argentinos Jrs, and was capable of scoring almost every kind of goal, from long range volleys to curlers from within the box. It's a similar fallacy as assuming assists = playmaking ability. Messi is arguably one of the greatest assist getters of all time, but imo he's arguably not even a Top 3 Argentine OAT in terms of playmaking ability, for eg
That is true for 100s of players in history of football, while Messi is the best playmaker of an entire generation. Those two things are not in even close on the same level.