The USMNT 26-man roster for World Cup 2022 announced p80 #1991

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by xbhaskarx, Jun 13, 2022.

  1. RalleeMonkey

    RalleeMonkey Member+

    Aug 30, 2004
    here
    Or, you could sub in Aaronson for Reyna there, too.
     
  2. gomichigan24

    gomichigan24 Member+

    Jul 15, 2002
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If we could have hit some more of those transition opportunities against Wales and Iran, we can maybe take our foot off the gas a bit in both games and rest guys. And then we’re maybe fresher for the round of 16.

    If you look at someone like France, I think no one on their team played all 3 games. They were good enough to finish first in their group while also rotating guys. We didn’t have that luxury.
     
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  3. JUnionFan

    JUnionFan Member+

    Philadelphia Union
    United States
    Sep 30, 2020
    When it comes to players who coulda played more to spell someone else, I think Aaronson was the biggest miss.

    I know some people view him as "only" a transition player and fear his defense so much they make it sound like having Aaronson on the field would lead to us losing 4-0 every game, but the kid is a 90 minute player in the Premier League. He was one of the best players on the field in games against Aresenal and Liverpool and Chelsea.

    We aren't such an elite team that we couldn't use a guy like that. And you look at him as someone who can spell LW, RW or one of the 8s. And I know he did do that. But he could have done it more, and probably even started a game.
     
  4. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    Right. Tournament football turns on minute executions. And those things cascade into rotation and game stats than can put you behind the 8 ball.

    It's kind of like poker. It's a helluva lot easier to be a really good poker player if start out with the biggest pot (more talented team) or you win some early hands (have some breaks go your way; execute well).
     
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  5. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    I feel like you are referring to me. But I've never said he's "only" a transition player and I've certainly never said we'd lose 4-0 every game.

    I love Brenden, but I do want to bring some clarity to my comments. He is a transition player on offense. He doesn't do a ton against a set defense. I mean, he's not terrible or something, but he's probably not as good in those spaces or as a dribbler than Reyna or Pulisic. He's small and gets bullied easily off the ball in traffic and he's never been a one on one guy off a stop.

    However, that doesn't mean he can't be valuable in a possession game at all. And every game has transition chances. It's not like we ever have the ball more than like 65% of the time. That's a lot of transition. And in the WC, if you go up ... you often have a lot more counter chances.

    Defensively, he's a bulldog, but we literally have 4-5 examples now of what happens where you put him in there. He moves into the attack and the 433 becomes a 424. It creates a hole between the midfield and attack and we lose numbers. It won't lead to us losing 4-0 every time and I've never, ever said that.

    But it will lead to us losing the midfield in many cases, and it will lead to counters behind us. We saw it against the Dutch, we saw it against Morocco... it's just a thing you need to compensate for.

    I thought he played well this tournament. I struggle to think about where I would have played him -- Pulisic is a better and more well-rounded player and Weah provides some needed depth. I think against England, it would have been a mistake to play him in the midfield.

    I would have been fine starting him against Wales or Iran but I don't know the consequences. Would we still have controlled the game or not? Would he have added extra punch? Maybe.

    Interesting discussion, but there's no reason for the exaggeration of the counter point.
     
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  6. xbhaskarx

    xbhaskarx Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    United States
    Feb 13, 2010
    NorCal
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Just some numbers to support the players having been run into the ground...



     
  7. JUnionFan

    JUnionFan Member+

    Philadelphia Union
    United States
    Sep 30, 2020
    I understand. That is fair. I just look at it like perhaps some some transition elements would not be the worst thing to introduce as a second or third wrinkle in this team. Maybe GGG wanted to focus on Plan A this cycle only, and there is no doubt that Aaronson is not a Pulisic like for a like, a Reyna like for like or a Musah/McKennie like for like.

    But Aaronson can do a job and I think we failed to entertain using him past the most basic "Well I guess I HAVE to sub him in now or else someone is going to collapse on the field" situations. I feel like his movement off the ball and into the channels is something we missed, and his ability to send the striker through on goal (ala with Sargent shortly after he came on in the Iran game) are some elements he brings to the team.

    I'd say fatigue is a massive reason we lost in the knockout rounds, and even though I still believe we performed well, the issues that came to a head at the end I feel like we had some options to alleviate. That also includes more playing time for other players, like Reyna.
     
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  8. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    Sure?

    But I've seen a whole lot of posts that are a lot more certain than that or don't acknowledge the trade-offs.

    Like, we've seen Brenden there like 5 times. Our shape is absolutely altered. I don't think that's a deal breaker, but I think any well reasoned argument needs to account for the challenges in ball progression and transition defense that creates.

    If you remember the Morocco match, how they kept hitting the long switch behind the midfield in counter? That's the spot Aaronson repeatedly vacated. We scored a bunch and managed to stop the counters in that match, so it can work. But it's a weakness that can be exploited. And so it's a viable conversation to talk about whether you want to run that risk for the offense.

    I've said this before but I just generally object to the certainty. This stuff can be complex, and we don't know what would have happened. Other posters get frustrated with this because they think that means I'm saying we can't talk about it if someone can't be definitive.

    But that's not it. I just think a well-reasoned argument addresses the facts and pros and cons. And the 4231 / 10 argument has a lot of posts that basically assume it is a cure all. Far more games are won on execution, on talent and even on finer tactical elements than just formation.

    So yeah, advocate for a 4231. But I'm not going to be convinced by an argument that waves away that Aaronson both is a low touch 10 and has a tendency to move very far out of the midfield. At Leeds, they play in a manner that he fits perfectly. Also, Leeds freaking ships goal, so their defense isn't exactly great, either.
     
  9. JUnionFan

    JUnionFan Member+

    Philadelphia Union
    United States
    Sep 30, 2020
    Yeah I agree with this. I am absolutely advocating for more of a 4-2-3-1 in terms of either the new Plan A or at least a competent Plan B we will actually use at times. By no means am I pretending Aaronson has a great role in the current formation and system.

    Let me put it another way, a thought I have forming as I read other threads and I think fits here: I hope we aren't going to get so petrified of moving away from MMA and doing something new that we spend the next 4 years trying to recapture the magic of WC 2022 MMA and not try to evolve or adapt or tweak things.

    Because yeah while MMA absolutely showed what it can do and that England game was great - it was still a 0-0 draw everyone. The way we celebrated and threw around words like world class, you woulda though we actually won or something lol. So I just don't want us to act like the only possible way forward is a 4-3-3 with MMA and nothing else matters.

    Because heads up - everything I say about Aaronson I think applies to Reyna. I don't think Reyna is a great fit in this system either (though I think Reyna has a more realistic future as a high level 8 than Aaronson), so I don't want to spend the next 4 years minimizing two of our better attackers - who btw are both young and play in the top leagues in the world.

    I also don't necessarily think we have the player pool to ride or die with a 4-3-3 MMA-like. We have a lot more 10-likes than Musah/McKennie-likes in the pool IMO.
     
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  10. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    I agree with this. MMA is a very good midfield but has strengths and weaknesses. I don't think we should lock into it -- especially with 3.5 years to go.

    That said, going forward, I just have two quibbles:
    1. I think you are discounting the ability of MMA -- particularly Musah -- to add additional offensive skills. None of these players are static, and Musah is as young as Reyna.
    2. There are a lot of ways to get more offensive than going with a central 10. Just as we shouldn't lock into MMA, we shouldn't be locked into a very specific tactic. The best teams in the world have wing creators, have creators from the 8, have better attacking fullback play. A solo 10 is not the only way even for a Reyna or Aaronson to make an impact. And solo 10s tend to very effective against weaker teams but are easier to tactically nullify against better.
    That's actually a bit of my fear with a 4231 -- we're going to struggle for high end opposition; any tactic might end up being a bit of fool's gold.

    I think Reyna would have been very good in the Pulisic role in this system. I think he actually could have been very good in McKennie's role as well, though I don't know that he would have instinctually executed it. And yes, as a 10. Reyna has pluses and minuses versus both of those players, but I think people are intentionally downplaying the time he missed and the injuries in terms of playing him over those guys.

    One of the big decisions the next coach will have to make is: is there really room for 3 dribbly playmakers on the field (Dest, Pulisic, Reyna)? Berhalter did it, but it never really worked. If not, can you get one of them to play more off ball (Pulisic, probably)? Can you get them to alternate and play off each other but also do the work to support each other?

    I think this is a good argument for more rotation. And our best options are a more offensive player.

    I am sure we will see a 4231 and Reyna at the 10 at some point. But I do think we're locking into formation choices in sync with personnel choices as we go.

    For example, I think perhaps in a few years Reyna actually is more like an 8 or more mentally flexible. So perhaps he plays the McKennie role but with more offensive ability? Not always, but that's an option. Or perhaps he becomes a more lethal scorer, and we want him closer to goal so we play him as a playmaking winger.

    Or maybe we hire Jesse Marsch and Brenden is our 10 in that system. (For the record, I think he's pretty good at wing).

    But I would just say that there's a reason possession 4231s have been greatly reduced in usage, and it's because if you don't have an absolute superstar at the 10, there's a book on how to stop.

    But like I said, we'll see it. I mean, we saw it with Brenden.
     
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  11. xbhaskarx

    xbhaskarx Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    United States
    Feb 13, 2010
    NorCal
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Don't bring guys to the MLS only camp who haven't already been called up like Vazquez, don't bring in guys who haven't been capped already like Tolkin, don't bring in guys who haven't been with the team recently like Mihailovic, don't play guys who haven't been playing regularly with the team like Scally...

     
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  12. xbhaskarx

    xbhaskarx Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    United States
    Feb 13, 2010
    NorCal
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    In Moore's defense that was only because guys like Roldan and Long didn't play, Morris didn't play enough to get noticed, and they may have started on this video before Ferreira got pulled at halftime of the final game...

    [​IMG]
     
  13. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    #3013 IndividualEleven, Dec 15, 2022
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2022
    I don't think a 'solo 10' exists in futbol.

    It's possible MMA could add some offensive skills, but that should first be done at club level. In the meantime, utilize players who can create or provide better impetus to said creation.

    Creation can come from a variety of positions, but the central attacking midfield area is prime real estate for such activity. The analogy is the striker position, which is prime real estate for goal scoring. You better go with a true striker, unless there's a different type of player who brings a compelling skillset to the position. Jesus 'Cheetah' Ferreira was not that player. Same applies to the single-pivot position in a 433. If you have an Andrea Pirlo, then you can try some different at defensive midfield. Otherwise, you'd better have a true backline shield manning that position.
     
  14. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    Looking at the Quarterfinalists each central midfield featured a player who at some season in his career showed he could get decent amount of goals/assists. Maybe McKennie could've been that player for the US, but he was clearly not close to his best.
     
  15. gomichigan24

    gomichigan24 Member+

    Jul 15, 2002
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well an even better example I think is Youssouf Fofana, who was first call into camp with France in September and whose first cap was in September, and who just started the World Cup semifinal.

    I don't think September was too late to integrate someone new, if that player was good enough.
     
  16. RossD

    RossD Member+

    Aug 17, 2013
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    But we also had the 2nd youngest team in the tournament. A 19- and 20-year-old can run a lot more over 10 days then a 30-year-old can. I seriously doubt we'd employ the same tactics if these guys were 8 years older. There's also the difference between a veteran who's been there and knows how to conserve his energy and a 20 year-old who's like, "Holy S***, I'm at the World Cup." then runs around like a bunny.
     
  17. RossD

    RossD Member+

    Aug 17, 2013
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    It's the coach's job to make judgement calls. He felt a tired MMA was better than a fully rested LDT or a tired Jedi was better than a fully rested Scally. He also felt the guys he brought were better than the guys he left. That's what a coach is supposed to do.
    It seems guys are just throwing out names to throw out names. I don't get it.
    And what's with the LDT love? He's an ok player but what's he done for the national team that screams he needs to be on the field? Our problem was our execution in the final third. How would he help with that? He has zero goals and assists for the national team and he's played a whopping 50 total minutes this season with zero goals and assists. WTH. That's our F'ing depth after MMA.
    The drop off after MMA and Aaronson in the midfield is immense and I'd rather put out a tired Musah then a fit Luca or anyone else. Because a tired Musah is better than a fit anyone else.
     
  18. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    Argentina aren't a running team. It's not a Messi issue: that's just the way they play. The US are always near the top in terms of ground covered. Age also isn't the issue: it's just a matter of style of play. But none of Arena '02, '06, Bob '10, JK '14 had used the same damn central mids throughout the tourney.

    The US are always near the top in terms of ground covered per match. Also crucially is the ground covered when out of possession, Yet, GGG didn't rotate the most physically demanding position. What a wasted opportunity this tourney was.
     
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  19. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    At WC2014, eventual champs Germany led everyone in overall distance covered and was just slightly behind the US in distance covered per match. IIRC, MB90 and his 3 lungs led the tournament in distance covered per match at ~13Km per while 31+ year old JJ was 2nd on the US at ~12km per. Jones and Bradley played every minute of every match but Bedoya was subbed in every match and Beckerman did not start the 4th match v Belgium.
     
  20. xbhaskarx

    xbhaskarx Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    United States
    Feb 13, 2010
    NorCal
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    And of course some were already integrated before September but still left out, like Ricardo Pepi...

     
  21. xbhaskarx

    xbhaskarx Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    United States
    Feb 13, 2010
    NorCal
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Now that the World Cup is over, can we discuss what a DISASTER Cristian Roldan was? No one expected him to play because he's not very good, and Gregg didn't play him (smart decision).
    But Roldan was supposed to be there as the locker room "vibes guy" who kept things chill at all times... and we ended up having a huge blow up, the biggest since WC98, with a controversy that is still ongoing.
    Roldan did NOTHING to prevent any of that! If he's not good enough to play AND he can't keep the locker room mellow, just what was the point in taking him over more talented players??

     
  22. butters59

    butters59 Member+

    Feb 22, 2013
    You are a funny guy.
     
  23. xbhaskarx

    xbhaskarx Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    United States
    Feb 13, 2010
    NorCal
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
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  24. tomásbernal

    tomásbernal Member+

    Sep 4, 2007
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This is a great chart to post next time people claim that "The World Cup is a young man's game". Argentina's average age on the weighted scale was 28.4, Croatia 29.2, France 27.2, Morocco 27.2. It looks like if you averaged all the players out it would be somewhere a bit above 28. And we were 25.2!
     
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  25. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    It's kind of insane how much younger we were than even England or France, who were relatively young.

    A year and a half plus is a not a small amount averaged over a full team.
     
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