Match 39: POL : ARG - MAKKELIE (NED)

Discussion in 'World Cup 2022 - Refereeing' started by balu, Nov 28, 2022.

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What do you think of Makkelie's performance?

Poll closed Dec 1, 2022.
  1. 1 (worst)

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  2. 2

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  3. 3

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. 4

    25.0%
  5. 5

    12.5%
  6. 6

    12.5%
  7. 7

    12.5%
  8. 8

    37.5%
  9. 9

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  10. 10 (best)

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. tripwire

    tripwire Member+

    Sep 23, 2012
    Club:
    SSC Napoli
    A really bad call for touching an eyelash.
     
  2. StarTime

    StarTime Member+

    United States
    Oct 18, 2020
    #27 StarTime, Nov 30, 2022
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2022
    This is pretty much where I'm at and why I'm, personally, ok with the penalty. He strikes the opponent in the face with his extended hand without getting the ball. To me, that should simply be a foul. That's my personal view. Goalkeepers have gotten away with far too much for far too long. If that's changed for the 2022 World Cup, I love that. But it's very unusual, and it would be surprising if FIFA were as happy with it as I was.

    For what it's worth, I can't recall a similar situation in this tournament regarding striking offenses committed by the goalkeeper. So maybe this was some sort of interpretation they discussed pre-tournament.
     
  3. USSF REF

    USSF REF Guest

    Until I see at least one VAR overturned at this event, I'm going to have to assume they were instructed not to veto the VAR at WC 22.
     
    AremRed repped this.
  4. soccermitchell

    Mar 2, 2010
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I have always thought that they were fouls, but they NEVER used to call anything that happened after an offensive player got off a shot. Defenders and Keepers were always allowed to foul the shooter. Only if it stopped the shot did they ever call it.
     
    StarTime repped this.
  5. StarTime

    StarTime Member+

    United States
    Oct 18, 2020
    For what it's worth, I don't recall the minute, but in the other game there was a play where a Mexican player shot the ball and got clattered afterwards. I didn't make note of it during the time because it's so run of the mill.

    And this might be a hot take, but I would love for those to be seen as fouls. Coming in late is supposed to make a challenge worse, not excuse it! I think the global paradigm is completely backwards on this; maybe in a few decades that will change and the world will agree with me XD. Until then I can only complain about it online.
     
  6. soccermitchell

    Mar 2, 2010
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I suspect this is just another "protect Messi the golden boy" moment. There will be a LOT of penalties if contact on a shooter after the shot is a penalty.
     
    Tigerpunk and duality72 repped this.
  7. akindc

    akindc Member+

    Jun 22, 2006
    Washington, DC
    Yup. We've now seen soft penalties called for both Ronaldo, and Messi.
    Elfath just got assigned another game, and I'm sure the powers that be were happy with the call. Makkelie will be fine as well.
     
  8. GoDawgsGo

    GoDawgsGo Member+

    Nov 11, 2010
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Holy hell that's yellow and he didn't call a foul
     
    RedStar91 repped this.
  9. Echoing

    Echoing Member

    Apr 14, 2013
    #34 Echoing, Nov 30, 2022
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2022
    With the tie broken by fair play points, the referees on these games are an in an unusual situation where a yellow card could directly decide whether a team goes through

    edit: by my math poland is currently ahead by two fair play points, so a single yellow wouldn't be the decider
     
    frankieboylampard repped this.
  10. Sport Billy

    Sport Billy Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 25, 2006
    "Fair Play" is hardly fair when some refs refuse to give cards and others are like Oprah giving out cars.
     
  11. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  12. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Who was Oprah this tournament?

    Also... it's not "fair" that some teams get to face an already-qualified or already-limited team on MD3.

    It's not fair that one simultaneously kicked match finishes earlier than another.

    It's not fair it's windy some days but not on others.

    I mean, there are variables in life and in sport. Who your referee is and judgment decisions made by them is one such variable. Score more goals and win more games and you don't have to worry about them. Is there an alternative suggestion you have if two teams have identical records and drew in their match?
     
  13. Ickshter

    Ickshter Member+

    Manchester City
    Mar 14, 2014
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Meh, players are aware how a game is called pretty early and what's allowed or not by a particular referee. They need to adjust knowing this scenario as well.

    Or how else do you want tie's decided? Passes completed? Shots on goal? Dance off?

    Or as my old Grandad used to say. the FAIR is in August...
     
    JasonMa and MassachusettsRef repped this.
  14. StarTime

    StarTime Member+

    United States
    Oct 18, 2020
    Clattenburg just brough up a very interesting point on the broadcast. The players are probably all aware of the current scenarios, but what of the referees? How are they informed when there's a change in the score of the other game that effects the scenarios for the game they are reffing? 4th Official? Or are they just relying on hearing it from the teams themselves?

    As Clattenburg described, a change of scenario will impact on the emotions and tactics of the players is important for the referee to know about. Granted, Clattenburg shouldn't really be listened to when it comes to such scenarios (see: Tottenham-Chelsea), but I think his logic makes sense here. If the tactics, emotions, and motives of my game were about to change, I would hope that I wasn't the only person who didn't know what was going on.
     
    duality72 repped this.
  15. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The counter-argument here, to go in the opposite direction of my post above, is that it's really not fair if a referee changes how he cards things for the final 20 minutes because it suddenly matters in a different way.

    As I said in the other thread and Clattenburg confirmed, the referees would know the possibility ahead of the match and know the situation at HT. But going further than that--like piping information directly to the referee in real-time from the VOR--would go too far. What good would come of that having that information for the referee? Now they are even less likely to card, perhaps, thereby actually corrupting the process?

    Also remember, everyone is still trying to score a goal and/or not concede. It's lot like it's 25 minutes of just playing "don't get carded." There's still a soccer game to play and officiate. So getting your head too deep in the Fair Play points is only going to distract you anyway.
     
    AremRed, RedStar91 and StarTime repped this.
  16. El Rayo Californiano

    Feb 3, 2014
    Four years ago Senegal finished third in their group, losing the tie-breaker to Japan on fair play points. There were complaints, of course, but Aliou Cisse shut them down saying the rules were clear before and during the tournament.
     
  17. GoDawgsGo

    GoDawgsGo Member+

    Nov 11, 2010
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    KFTM. Pretty common for deciding a group tie in a lot of competitions. Have a designated time and location for each group pre determined if it's necessary. Logistics get hairy in a large geographic area like 2026 but that's why you have it be pre determined. Not hard to book a last second charter.
     
    akindc repped this.
  18. StarTime

    StarTime Member+

    United States
    Oct 18, 2020
    Yeah, I doubt anyone is piping in information about individual cards. The referee shouldn't change his line over stuff like that, that's for sure.

    Goals though? I'd want to know. Knowing that Mexico team "wins" by winning by 3 in this 2-0 game isn't going to be any different, insofar as a referee being mentally affected by it, from a "regular" 1-1 game. The team needs a goal, which is what matters, not whatever the numbers on the scoreboard in the stadium are.
     
  19. Ickshter

    Ickshter Member+

    Manchester City
    Mar 14, 2014
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    and all for naught.. Saudi puts a nail in...
     
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  20. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    FIFA would be crushed if it was flying teams to rendezvous just for KFTM. KFTM is, in a lot of ways, another lottery anyway--I mean, we have arguments about that not being fair all the time.

    It's pretty common at a youth or amateur tournament event in one location. This is so different. The travel, logistics and security issues alone make it a nonstarter, even if it was a good idea.
     
    JasonMa repped this.
  21. StarTime

    StarTime Member+

    United States
    Oct 18, 2020
    It wasn't a nail at all actually, a completely expendable goal concession by Mexico, as they would tie Poland's GD and advance on a Goals Scored tiebreaker had they scored another.
     
    JasonMa, mfw13, soxfaninny and 1 other person repped this.
  22. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    I don't understand the complaints. Yes referees can be random and varied, but it's still something you can prevent and control. Don't get unnecessary yellow cards or play better so you don't have to commit desperate and reckless fouls to break up play.

    So would some prefer a drawing of lots instead which is mathematically the fairest thing you can have?

    If I was a fan of a team that got eliminated by fair play points, I would be much rather go out due to one of my players getting a silly yellow card for dissent than through a sheer flip of the coin.

    At least I can say, "if only our forward didn't have a mouth on him, we would be through."
     
  23. Pierre Head

    Pierre Head Member+

    Dec 24, 2005
    You need new eyeglasses! :D

    PH
     
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  24. MetroFever

    MetroFever Member+

    Jun 3, 2001
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    Several of the regular posters were annoyed that referees were playing the entire stoppage time in two of the opening week blowouts.

    Today is a reminder why you do so.
     
  25. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    On a side note, today's game shows you why the 32 team format is just perfect.

    For all the unseemliness of Qatar hosting it and the weird time of year, this is why the World Cup is the greatest event in the world. The drama is just awesome.

    FIFA have gotten so many things wrong, but the 32 team World Cup is such a perfect format and the group stages are awesome. We should all savor this World Cup and the simultaneous kick-offs on the last match of the group.

    The 48 team monster is gonna be awful. It's either gonna be 16 groups of 3 or 12 groups of 4 with the ridiculousness of third place teams going through.

    There is enough leeway where you can have some great upsets early that don't kill the big teams, but you also get this kind of drama where you are watching two games at once.
     

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