I wouldn't say he played fabulously well, but DeGea would not have saved that poorly-taken PK. He would have already dived to the right.
It’s more and more common across the PL and football in general - our last two opponents are the best examples of it further down the hierarchy of clubs, but Swanselona were doing it 10-11 years ago and we’d been humiliated by Basel and Bilbao way back under SAF. It’s a hard sell with a lot of football fans because they just rate players based on how good they are, without specifically looking at how good they are for a specific role / team / manager etc. It doesn’t matter how good somebody is at skills they aren’t going to use. It’s why I’m fine with us selling Garner. He’s not got the possession football chops to be part of our first team right now, and I don’t think he ever will. It’s kinder to him and better for us to send him to a mid-table club, and use that money on fixing the first team while teaching our academy talent to play like Ten Hag.
I disagree with Garner, at least in the short term. Right now we’re stuck in a numbers game. Is Garner good enough to play in an ETH side long term? Maybe not. But he’s already better than McT who’s proven is can’t do the job. If we sold one right now, McT would definitely fetch a higher fee. I would sell him instead and give Garner the chance to be a depth piece. At the very worst, he’s equal to McT. If he does better, then he’s a valuable squad guy or at least fetches a higher fee next summer. I see now downside to moving McT and keeping Garner. And yes, I agree in terms of the system teams we’ve played in the past. I mention Klopp because in my mind he’s the highest level of system manager that’s bought players that we’re good, not great, in other teams but look world class in his side because they fit his system perfectly. I believe ETH could be the same type but we are forcing him to play with guys incapable of playing his style. That starts from the back and DDG will never be able to play the distribution role that ETH wants. Along with coming out for crosses, distribution is the weakest part of DDGs game. And since he’s no longer an elite shot stopper, it doesn’t make sense to keep him in the side when a fairly cheap replacement could be found that fits ETHs plans better.
For me it’s about selling Garner because otherwise we may end up permanently harming his career, I think McTominay will be phased out to just token / situation dependent minutes by the end of this window. McTominay is in a position to get 1000 minutes or less and still do a job. Garner will be 8th choice if we buy Rabiot and Frenkie. Possibly 9th choice behind Zidane too. I get why people would want us to give him a chance, I just think it’s important we become a dependable possession team so that youth can come in to an established system. I think if it was a 19 year old Kobbie Mainoo then it’d be a very different matter.
Henderson made a couple of great saves, not just on the penalty. He had big shoes to fill. Brice Samba is a hero at NF.
I guess I don’t really understand how you take a stance with rabiot being able to be what we need him to be, despite recent usage and form, but you won’t take the same line with garner? Is it just a devils advocate thing for you?
I think this garner talk is particularly hard to swallow, currently, because the youth is one of the few things to hope for with this club. It’s particularly difficult for posters like mizzou, who have no real control over their emotions.
After the first two games and the clusterfukc that is happening in midfield, maybe ETH really rates Garner that low. I thought he looked fine playing in an ETH midfield on tour, not spectacular but decent enough. Certainly better than what McT & Fred have shown so far in the first two games. I'm just surprised that he's the one that's for sale. Maybe things are so far advanced with Rabiot and FDJ that they think it's ok to let him go....
We had a good pre-season but even so McT was a standout poor performer. Then both performances were poor so far in EPL too. Last 18 months poor too. He is 26 later this year and has had Mou, Ole, Carrick, Rangnick as managers, now EtH too and none have managed to fix the issues in his game. Garner had a good year last season and at just 21 already appears to be better technically and have a higher ceiling. Plus at this age is so much more teachable. Is baffling that McT keeps getting minutes. Maybe McT is a monster in training and Garner anonymous. Had Garner not been injured most of pre-season this could have been so different. At least he would have had a proper opportunity to show EtH something.
A few reasons. Rabiot has always been a midfielder best suited to a possession side - Garner has never really played in a way that has demanded that of him. Rabiot has shown he can be an excellent ball retainer & carrier in that setup, with really good ball winning ability and defensive work rate. If we get him back to even close to that level and can partner him with De Jong then he’d essentially be our Mousa Dembele type alongside the DLP. Garner’s peak comes nowhere close to that, whichever team playing style you put him in - let alone a 65% possession side. And Rabiot’s apparent level last season for a bad Juve side is still higher than Garner’s level may ever end up being. I’m all in favour of academy products making their mark, I just think the requirements in a Ten Hag midfield are way too steep for someone who was a much better fit for Oleball. Galbraith, Zidane Iqbal, Kobbie Mainoo - these players look a closer fit to me, where Garner is more athletic and can strike a ball nicely but never had the playmaking qualities of Levitt or Galbraith.
Every conceivable attempt to target United's left hand side in the air in buildup against Brentford pic.twitter.com/l6ojzAMdnH— Comps (@united_comps) August 16, 2022 Every time Lisandro Martinez contested anything resembling an aerial duel against Brentford pic.twitter.com/VeCQDk2LpT— Comps (@united_comps) August 16, 2022 This is really helpful. There are two videos here, showing all of Brentford’s long balls in the first half that even vaguely resulted in aerial challenges - one specifically focuses on Lisandro. I’m posting this here in case anybody has been swayed by how Sky spent the whole match (and afterwards) talking about this without any objectivity. I don’t blame you, I’m just hoping this gets you to form your own opinion rather than have theirs rammed down your throat. This narrative about Lisandro being too short is real caveman shit. It’s a really reductive argument for pundits to latch on to and make a narrative about how their team’s big slabs back in the old days are untouchable. What you can see in these videos if anything is that Utd should do more to win the second balls or regain control of the ball & territory, but Brentford being pushed up on our midfield and running (13.8km) more than us means we don’t get on top of it sufficiently.
I know the height thing is dumb. It's typical Angelo bias towards other leagues and style of play. I remember how English Pundits couldn't believe how Italy beat them when they had players who wouldn't start in the EPL. This wasn't the recent Euros but like a decade or so ago. I can find plenty of footage of Mags getting out jumped on a cross.
Nothing he did wrong against Brentford has to do with his height. He fell on the one goal where he could have been given blame. His only fault against Brentford was not being able to be three places at once…in his position, Maguires position, and Shaws position.
When we talk about running more there are two important factors: - When you defend you run more. We had 67% possession, they are going to run more. - When you play on the counter, you will run more. They played on the counter. Still that does not take away the fact that there no hustle or aggressiveness when we lost the ball. The second balls are crucial.
We've had trouble getting to 2nd balls for several years now. It's been one of the consistently frustrating thing to watch about this team.
I posted a tweet in his thread about how Martinez picks the flight of the ball early, gets up early or if out-jumped uses his body to make up for his height. He has aerial technique not height. Lindelof for example has height but no aerial technique - cant judge flight of ball and usually jumps under it, so often beaten. I do in part blame Martinez for the goal, but not because he was out-jumped, just because he failed to jump / defend. Also blame Eriksen (meant to block the run), Dalot (meant to win header in his zone), DDG (should move feet and deal with header back across goal) too. Will have to see how things develop, but that Martinez can play CB, CDM, LB, LCB in a 3 etc. means he will be fine come what may, provided he adjusts to the EPL (which may take time - same for everybody from diff league).
Are United's CB worse as CB than McT is bad at being a midfielder? I assumed when you guys outbid us for Martinez, he would be playing midfield hence the aggressiveness of the bid.
That’s fine but it doesn’t pertain to his height. Neither him nor Mee jumped even, as I recall, and while he should have retrieved the situation, it’s still a secondary error compared to the goalkeeping for this and the first two goals. And by this stage I think our heads were already going as a result. It was a bad goal to concede but this idea that he’s too short for the PL was being peddled from the very start of this game. And the frustrating thing is that because of this goal, they’ll feel vindicated - which is insane.
He isn’t a midfielder. I think again this was Utd fans hoping he was plugging that particular gap, combined with received PL wisdom that CBs need to be massive.