The current state of our youth national teams

Discussion in 'Youth National Teams' started by xbhaskarx, Jan 17, 2019.

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  1. SUDano

    SUDano Member+

    Jan 18, 2003
    Rochester, NY
    upload_2022-8-4_16-49-20.jpeg
     
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  2. xbhaskarx

    xbhaskarx Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    United States
    Feb 13, 2010
    NorCal
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #1352 xbhaskarx, Aug 4, 2022
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2022
    Liga MX president 'worried' about falling behind Major League Soccer

    Video


    And then there's the eyeballs
     
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  3. TarHeels17

    TarHeels17 Member+

    Jan 10, 2017
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Seems like his heart is in the right place. It's funny reading Liga MX forums and things, though, and seeing how strange their complaints are. From what I saw, the typical angry twitter fan complain about:
    A. Removal of descenso (which is strange, since it's the main reason MLS is growing so fast)
    B. Mexicans not having European passports (if your players were any good, they'd still have offers at 18)
    C. Not having enough money to compete with the financial gargantuan the US is (what are you paying the players then? You already have quite good teams, just terrible youth production)

    None of those things are actual causes right now. I'd also argue that the 220 vs 35 argument is quite silly - I've spent a non-negligible portion of my life on this website and Transfermarkt, and I probably haven't even heard of half of the 220 Americans currently in Europe. It's much more about quality in Europe than quantity. But, the general thought is in the right place.

    To me, the solution is obvious - spend some money you currently spend almost entirely on player wages on stuff that a team like Philly spends it on. We may be more populous, but the US still has way fewer male kids growing up playing soccer than Mexico. Yeah, MLS will pass Liga MX, and that much is probably unavoidable, but you can't possibly give any good reason for Mexico to not be as good as Argentina. Double the economy, triple the population. They really need to figure it out.
     
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  4. TarHeels17

    TarHeels17 Member+

    Jan 10, 2017
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If you wanna make it I'd happily support it. I gotta think they're among the worst at playing/developing domestic players of any first division team in the world.
     
  5. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    I don't think pro/rel would really generate a lot of movement in Mexico, because the teams with money rarely have a fear of relegation, and if they were at risk, they buy their way out or they buy short term players.

    Likewise, the lack of pro/rel in MLS isn't really an issue because MLS owners and teams have plenty of ambitions to drive them forward. A big difference is just the mindset and ambition of the leagues -- MLS owners have been sold the idea of becoming a much bigger and better league with the financial return of that, and they are acting to some extent accordingly. LigaMX has been content to be what they are for a long time. There was no hope of being a top European league quality (and still likely isn't) but there also wasn't an interim goal. MLS pushing them may change that.

    I think LigaMX's other issue versus MLS in terms of growth is actually their economic structure. They have like five or six rich teams and then the rest are not financial behemoths. Those teams consolidate talent, don't need to sell, and don't need to give PT.

    MLS has had the issue that they don't need to sell, either ... but the actually lack of revenue from media makes selling players more attractive. And because there's no internal mechanism to consolidate American talent and stash it like in LigaMX, the buyers become Europe, not Atlanta United or the LA Galaxy or whatever Club America or Chivas would be.

    In Mexico, Brenden Aaronson doesn't get sold to Salzburg, he gets sold to Club America. Along with half the other prospects, creating a bottleneck. In the US, some of these players might stay, but the salary structure isn't going to allow for a team buying up a bunch of players that can't play.

    Part of that is cultural right now. For Americans, Europe is the goal. For a lot of Mexicans, where they are bigger celebrities at home and get paid well, and where they didn't grow up idolizing exclusively European players ... it's not as strong.

    That will change a bit in the US. Higher salaries will keep more players home. But we're still a very long way from Jesus Ferreira being idolized if he stays with FC Dallas. And the desire to be the best in the world will still be there for most, since that's fundamentally very ingrained in our admittedly egotistical world view.
     
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  6. Ray Shoesmith

    Ray Shoesmith Member+

    Valencia
    United States
    Nov 14, 2021
    Don‘t forget money laundering.
    TV controlling so much of the game.
    Mindset. Very insular. Very conservative.

    No one likes to talk about that one. We don‘t think of Mexico like that because of how it’s portrayed here.
    Mexicans in general are very conservative. That is reality. That is part of the issue.
     
  7. TxEx

    TxEx Member+

    Tottenham Hotspur, Crystal Palace, FC Dallas
    Aug 19, 2016
    DFW
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Dumb question, I don't know the particulars of this new tournament next year but do these extra games mean expanded rosters, salary cap, HG limits? Does anyone know what's going to happen with MLS teams regarding this next year?

    Seems like a prime opportunity for kids to get more MLS games if a sold out game vs Club America is played three days previous.
     
  8. TxEx

    TxEx Member+

    Tottenham Hotspur, Crystal Palace, FC Dallas
    Aug 19, 2016
    DFW
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    As for LigaMX their schedule just kills all hope for youth development. 17 games makes every point crucial. 34 games with every team having mid-week games semi-regularly means MLS clubs are forced to select the full roster and fill minutes here and there with kids who can hold their own. Kids show they can handle the job and low and behold kids get more minutes cause they're a hell of a lot cheaper than buying yet another mediocre veteran. Between minutes and desire for these kids to go to Europe the conveyor belt got started and is picking up speed.

    With LigaMX as long as the tv guys get theirs the status quo works just fine. Their aging roster has just enough to probably paper over some cracks and compete for their group at the WC. After that though with another four years of American club expansion and focus on youth development, playing, and then sales this thing could turn exponential on Mexico.

    Sure of those 220 65% are probably playing in lackluster leagues and are completely irrelevant to the national teams but they all talk to each other. They share their experiences with the younger guys and in 10+ years how many are going to be coaching, scouting, developing the next generation of Americans influenced by their time overseas and all that they learned?
     
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  9. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    Both leagues are basically going to take the month of August off and play a tournament. So it won't be in the midst of the season, but I do think it will be pretty rapid fire games in the group stages.
     
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  10. TarHeels17

    TarHeels17 Member+

    Jan 10, 2017
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Relatedly:
    team_perc.png team_total.png team_total_all_years.png team_perc_all_years.png
     
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  11. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think Merritt Paulson has been pretty clear about the team's home-grown policy.
     
  12. Master O

    Master O Member+

    Jul 7, 2006
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  13. Pegasus

    Pegasus Member+

    Apr 20, 1999
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The more players over there make it easier to find countrymen to hang out with when you feel lonely etc. The days of Donovan coming home because no one else was there don't apply anymore. I'd say it's in reverse now and if you're a top tier player you feel left out if you're not the by 20-22.
     
  14. Ray Shoesmith

    Ray Shoesmith Member+

    Valencia
    United States
    Nov 14, 2021
    They will benefit greatly by it also. They already will next cycle. Their team would have several top dual Nats developed here.

    They won‘t be hurting, things will just be different. We will actually just be real good all of the time and they don‘t like that.

    That will hurt mentally, but long term it will in all likelihood make them stronger. Good for us and the region also.
     
  15. Master O

    Master O Member+

    Jul 7, 2006
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Mexico has a general policy of not fielding dual nats. Their fans are also hostile to dual nats playing for Mexico.
     
  16. gomichigan24

    gomichigan24 Member+

    Jul 15, 2002
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    They still play them. The fans can be unfair towards them but that doesn’t mean they don’t get into the team.
     
  17. LouisZ

    LouisZ Member+

    Oct 14, 2010
    Southern California-USA
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  18. onefineesq

    onefineesq Member+

    Sep 16, 2003
    Laurel, MD
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  19. LouisZ

    LouisZ Member+

    Oct 14, 2010
    Southern California-USA
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    got it. Didn't see that. it was relinked today.
     
  20. Peretz48

    Peretz48 Member+

    Nov 9, 2003
    Los Angeles
    I often see talk about what would happen if we got our best athletes to play soccer. Well, at least on the women's side we saw evidence of that in the U.S.-Netherlands U20 WWC game. We had tremendous athletes who often sidestepped the Dutch defenders and raced downfield. Only problem was the Dutch spanked us 3-0. Yeah, those speedsters outraced their defenders only to dribble into one or two other defenders. The Dutch were vastly superior technically and tactically. While the U.S. players tried to dribble individually the Dutch women effectively combined. Their defense was organized and compact. The U.S. women couldn't pass effectively, couldn't trap the ball, couldn't strike the ball. All they could do was dribble one on one and run into space. It was sad to watch.
     
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  21. Master O

    Master O Member+

    Jul 7, 2006
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That's what other teams usually do to the US in both the men's and women's game, though. Pack it in, park the bus, and look to hit on the counter.

    Obviously, that sounds more like a fault of the US's coach for not adjusting to that.
     
  22. no exit

    no exit Member+

    DC United
    United States
    Nov 20, 2019
    I don't think anyone thinks getting "the best athletes" is some sort of solve-all for all things national team related. (At least anyone reasonable and knowledgeable.)

    You can just as easily turn around and mock the opposite extreme position. I think anyone who's both reasonable and knowledgeable would observe the high number of ridiculous athletes starting for top clubs -- if you don't think Ngolo Kante, Virgil van Dyke, Koulibaly, Mane, Goretzka, etc. aren't really excellent athletes besides their high-level technical and tactical skills, I'm not sure what to do.
     
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  23. BostonRed

    BostonRed Member+

    Oct 9, 2011
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Someone did the math and figured the raw numbers would say the US is getting more elite athletes into soccer than, say, Belgium. I've always said the biggest bottleneck is coaching, which could take a generation to improve drastically. The fact that most parents can't even do basic coaching for their kids on soccer in the backyard is a bigger hinderance than losing elite athletes to basketball and football.
     
  24. LouisZ

    LouisZ Member+

    Oct 14, 2010
    Southern California-USA
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Which main sport in the USA take the best athletes away from soccer?
     
  25. no exit

    no exit Member+

    DC United
    United States
    Nov 20, 2019
    Football, basketball mainly I'd guess. The usual way this discussion goes is, "what if LeBron James played soccer," which is of course obviously incorrect. The better way of thinking about this is: what about all the guys who don't quite make the grade but who would be a better fit for soccer?

    A, say, Nate Robinson or Spudd Webb is the rare 5'9" guy (or whatever) who makes it to the NBA, but there are surely 20 guys for each sub-6-foot-NBA-players who top out at college or even high-level high school ball who'd be a better fit for soccer.
     

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