Dual nationals who could suit up for the US.

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by juvechelsea, Oct 26, 2018.

  1. nobody

    nobody Member+

    Jun 20, 2000
    Yes, this is pretty much what happened with Musah and I doubt we would have been able get him to commit to the US if he hadn't been able to get significant minutes right away. For guys who are ready to play now and able to win a lot of minutes right away, this makes sense. But, we have a ton of guys who are dual nationals that are borderline cases that are tougher to bring in without having half the squad being guys who are called more because of wanting to lock them in than deserving their spot purely on merit.
     
  2. nobody

    nobody Member+

    Jun 20, 2000
    Same thing with Dest, by the way. He may not have been interested in coming to the US to be a bench player or a guy waiting on his chance. But, he was clearly good enough to start right away so he got called in, played a ton and committed. Guys who are ready right now definitely get different treatment. If Slonina is ready or not is still a bit up in the air for a lot of people, but that doesn't mean we won't look back in a decade and wish we had pushed harder to get him in. Of course, if he really wants to play for Poland instead, that's his choice and not a lot we can do about it.
     
  3. BostonRed

    BostonRed Member+

    Oct 9, 2011
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Better pray they don't get hit with a Covid-19 outbreak.
     
  4. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    Musah is clearly good enough to be our first team and basically walked into a starter role. We didn't have to worry too much about how some of our other dual nats felt about it as much because he's clearly deserving.

    I'm sure for England, they couldn't really offer a "real" first team call-up / couldn't offer one without others feeling it was somewhat unearned, as Yunus is great, but you are a more talented and deeper team.

    But that said, the US is just in a unique place in that like a third of the US is eligible for somewhere else and our player pool moreso. England has a ton of dual nats as well, but it's a different dynamic with Slonina -- who really isn't likely to play for Poland OR the US right now, but Poland can bring him in without some one dual nat being annoyed whereas we're managing through a whole lot of players making dual nat noise at all times.
     
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  5. EXALIFTIN

    EXALIFTIN Member+

    Nov 23, 2010
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #2405 EXALIFTIN, May 17, 2022
    Last edited: May 17, 2022
  6. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    Not only no new dual nats, but no David Ochoa (and of course, no Jonathon Gonzalez).

    At least Araujo made the top 13 defenders. And they brought in 15 midfielders and no dual nat.
     
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  7. grandinquisitor28

    Feb 11, 2002
    Nevada
    You'd think at some point the prospective dual nats would pay attention to the predatory cap tying, but just as my students remind me everyday, the passion for El Tri overrules everything else for a great many of the young players.
     
  8. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    You'd think by now Jonathan Gonzalez would be a cautionary tale. But of course he's not good enough for the USMNT at this point either.

    Jonathan Gonzalez is a better cautionary tale for these boards. Folks should remember the epic meltdown when he chose to switch to Mexico. Folks said the nastiest things about the USSF and the interim USMNT coach Sarachan for letting him get away (Dave instead gave first caps to guys like Adams & McKennie). Imagine how much emotional energy was wasted worrying about Jonathan Gonzalez switching allegiances.

    Same is true of all of these other guys.

    USMNT fans seem to obsess about the guys who don't want to play for us more than the guys who are passionate about supporting the cause. How much did Cristian Roldan fly around the world to be part of the squad during quaifying while playing very little?
     
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  9. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    By the way the phrase "predatory capping" is lame.
    These players like are choosing to represent Mexico. There isn't a gun being put to their heads. People act like these kids are naive fools that are being taken advantage of. David Ochoa knew that there was no guarantee that he'd actually be part of FMF when he made the switch. He knew he'd have to fight for a place just like he would have needed to with the US. Just like he's needed to with every squad he's ever been on.
     
  10. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    That's generally where I am now. It's not that I don't think some of these players can help. I won't think some of them are very good, but we're going to lose players that can contribute.

    But I want players who want to play for us, and we've got enough talent that we should succeed with the players who do want to play for us.

    I'll be worried if there is a systematic issue, for example, with a segment of our population not feeling welcome. But that's less about losing any individual talent than a problem with that occurring at all.

    Whether it's Ricardo Pepi or Weston McKennie or Sergino Dest or Gio Reyna, I'm good with running with the players who want to play for the US. It's not to say we shouldn't recruit; I'm just happy with Berhalter's philosophy and I'm not going to get worked up about any player making a choice for them.
     
  11. grandinquisitor28

    Feb 11, 2002
    Nevada
    I think the anger was far more towards Wrongen for supposedly lying about contacts and visits that never happened, then towards Sarachan, but I could be wrong, my memory aint what it once was.
     
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  12. largegarlic

    largegarlic Member+

    Jul 2, 2007
    If I were advising some of these guys like Ledezma, Mendez, or Gomez, who are unlikely to make either country's WC roster, I'd say to keep your options open until after the WC. I'd said is very likely that Mexico has a new coach for next cycle and maybe 50/50 that the US has a new coach. Obviously, new coaching staffs could rate players differently and play different systems that might (dis)favor certain guys.
     
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  13. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    #2413 Clint Eastwood, May 17, 2022
    Last edited: May 17, 2022
    Worth remembering that when Gonzalez was making his decision there was a lame duck USSF president, no USMNT technical director, no full-time USMNT coach, no US U23 coach, no U19 coach, no U18 coach, no U17 coach, no U16 coach, no U15 coach, etc. etc. This was right after the US' failure in 2018 qualifying when the house was frickin' cleared. It was basically Ramos at soccer house as US youth technical director and U20 coach, who couldn't really give Gonzalez any assurances over his future. [Ramos is the one who called him UP a cycle to the US U20s when Mexico wasn't interested. So we can't blame Ramos.]

    I think Jonathan Gonzalez was looking for a reason to switch, and found it. Just like David Ochoa provided a lame reason (not playing in the CR friendly). He was looking for a reason to switch. Was it the right decision or wrong decision? I don't know. I don't think he's good enough for either at the moment, and we'll see how he develops.

    The entire dual-national recruiting platform with the USSF was founded by Thomas Rongen. He's the one who convinced the USSF to actually make a list of dual nationals and track them. He's the one that convinced the USSF to actually have a budget dedicated to recruiting and scouting dual-nationals. He's the one that's responsible for the recruitment of John Anthony Brooks and a host of others that have been huge for the USMNT.

    And people blame him for Subotic (which again was a player looking for an excuse to switch).

    Folks criticizing Thomas Rongen on dual-nationals can't see the forest for the trees. Everything that Berhalter is doing with dual-nationals (and Klinsmann before him) was started by Rongen.
     
  14. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Gomez isn't provisionally cap-tied to either, so he can continue exploring his options, accepting callups to both camps, etc.

    Mendez and Ledezma are both provisionally cap-tied. They'd have to make a switch and stick to it. I totally agree with your premise. I also have no idea why they'd make that decision now because they're unlikely to go to the WC with either nation. They know it. So if they choose to make that change, its with their heart and not their head. And in that case, so be it.
     
  15. DGreat

    DGreat Moderator
    Staff Member

    CD Guadalajara
    Mexico
    Oct 5, 2007
    El Ombligo
    Club:
    CD Chivas de Guadalajara
    Nat'l Team:
    Mexico
    I'm not sure where you're getting such feeling of "predatory cap-tying territory" when none of these guys have been called up to official games.
     
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  16. RalleeMonkey

    RalleeMonkey Member+

    Aug 30, 2004
    here
    They were captied when they switched. The fact that they haven't been called up to an official match makes it even more predatory.
     
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  17. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That is just revisionism.

    Jonathan Gonzalez was a starting CM for Liga MX's best team as an 18yo and was so impressive in CM (technically, tactically and covering 12Km per match) that he was being tracked by Man United.

    Arena who had disbanded both the analytics and recruiting groups when he took over never made any attempts to reach out. Rongen was a snake and lied and disrespected Gonzalez's family.

    That kind of incompetence does not occur on GB's watch. Berhalter takes recruiting as seriously as Klinsmann did and as in most areas works much harder at it.
     
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  18. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Gonzalez has not done anything in the last 2 years to deserve a callup. Not sure why he fell off a cliff but he has. I remember a couple of years ago that ATL-U was trying hard to buy him but Monterrey priced him out of the market.
     
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  19. grandinquisitor28

    Feb 11, 2002
    Nevada
    Sometimes its a matter of consistency, sometimes its mental make up, sometimes it's a player just had a nice run of form, sometimes it's life itself. You never know. Why was Rich Gannon a non-entity until his thirties, why are other guys, like say, Charlie Brown circa Super Bowl XVII, good for 2 or 3 years and then vanish. Its a weird thing.

    However, five years ago it was a different story entirely.
     
  20. CU soccer

    CU soccer Member

    Mar 28, 2005
    Panama City Beach
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I hate the dual National crap. It’s turning National Teams into club teams. Pick a country by your 18th birthday and be held to the decision.
     
  21. grandinquisitor28

    Feb 11, 2002
    Nevada
    I don't mind it, I just mind the cynical aspect to it, but at the same time it makes sense, a lot of money and marketing $$$ can be tied to this, as well as emotional connections and what not. It's complicated, I wish it was simpler though.
     
  22. rgli13

    rgli13 Member+

    Mar 23, 2005
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    good timing for slonina, as bs has decided over the last couple of weeks hes nowhere near ready/borderline no good at all :rolleyes:
     
  23. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Why on Earth did Jonathan Gonzalez, a player who had already represented the US at the U20 World Cup, need Thomas Rongen to visit him and kiss his ass? Its beyond me. I have no idea. Thomas Rongen was a scout at the time. Why would he do that? Gonzalez was already part of the US program. Rongen was the only full time scout the USSF employed. He was scouting the whole damn world, not just one player in Mexico.

    It sure seems that Rongen, Sarachan, and the USSF evaluators at the time got the decision right on Jonathan Gonzalez. 100%. I'm sorry that angers people who felt like Gonzalez would develop into more than that. Enough with the damn "but Man United was tracking him!!" Yeah, right. Get over it. Sarachan and Rongen were right.
     
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  24. DGreat

    DGreat Moderator
    Staff Member

    CD Guadalajara
    Mexico
    Oct 5, 2007
    El Ombligo
    Club:
    CD Chivas de Guadalajara
    Nat'l Team:
    Mexico
    Again that doesn't prove anything. We're they promised playing time? We're they promised a spot in the team or like @Clint Eastwood mentioned we're they simply offered a shot?
    While reading these threads I realize that many aren't aware but there is a fresh batch of youngsters in ligamx already making a push for the nt. Competition is still high even if you don't see European club names next to them.
     
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  25. RalleeMonkey

    RalleeMonkey Member+

    Aug 30, 2004
    here
    Where did I say he had?

    Let's recap - Dude said flipping Aurujo and Ochoa was not predatory, because they haven't played in an official comp. I'm saying that makes it *more* predatory. Flipping a guy you're not going to use is the definition of "predatory."

    Now, let me say, I think the concept of "predatory" is silly. A national team has the right to use its resources on players they know are committed to the team. If a guy is not committed to the team, unless they are extra special, allocate the resources to someone who is.

    There is nothing "predatory" about that. If any of the young guys play in NL at all, they are committed for the next three years to the U.S.

    To me, I'm calling in Mendez, Slonino, Ledesma, Gomez, prolly others, to NL, and playing them. They know the deal. The coaching staff likes them, wants to expend resources on them, and wants to know they're committed to the U.S. They can accept or decline.

    If they decline, then move on to someone else. No biggie. If it's a guy that seems like a can't miss sure-fire future best 23, then continue to schmooze. If the guy is not a clear diamond, then move on.

    What is predatory about that?

    But, if "predatory" is a thing - what Mexico is doing is clearly "predatory."
     
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