2022 MLS Week 09 Referee Discussion

Discussion in 'MLS Referee Forum' started by A66C, Apr 28, 2022.

  1. A66C

    A66C Member

    N/A
    United States
    Jan 3, 2022
    04/30/22

    Houston Dynamo vs Austin FC
    PNC Stadium (1:30PM ET)
    REF: Ted Unkel
    AR1: Cameron Blanchard
    AR2: Corey Rockwell
    4TH: Luis Arroyo
    VAR: Sorin Stoica
    AVAR: Fabio Tovar

    Toronto FC vs FC Cincinnati
    BMO Field (3PM ET)
    REF: Pierre-Luc Lauziere
    AR1: Oscar Mitchell-Carvalho
    AR2: Lyes Arfa
    4TH: Silviu Petrescu
    VAR: Ramy Touchan
    AVAR: Gianni Facchini

    Real Salt Lake vs LA Galaxy
    Rio Tinto Stadium (3:30PM ET)
    REF: Drew Fischer
    AR1: Kathryn Nesbitt
    AR2: Frank Anderson
    4TH: Joshua Encarnacion
    VAR: Younes Marrakchi
    AVAR: TJ Zablocki

    CF Montréal vs Atlanta United
    Stade Saputo (4PM ET)
    REF: Alex Chilowicz
    AR1: Ian Anderson
    AR2: Kyle Atkins
    4TH: Marcos DeOliveira II
    VAR: Carol Anne Chenard
    AVAR: Robert Schaap

    Columbus Crew vs D.C. United
    Lower.com Field (7:30PM ET)
    REF: Timothy Ford
    AR1: Nick Uranga
    AR2: Andrew Bigelow
    4TH: Ismir Pekmic
    VAR: Chico Grajeda
    AVAR: Mike Kampmeinert

    New England Revolution vs Inter Miami CF
    Gillette Stadium (7:30PM ET)
    REF: Ismail Elfath
    AR1: Corey Parker
    AR2: Micheal Barwegen
    4TH: Matt Thompson
    VAR: Jorge Gonzalez
    AVAR: Tom Supple

    Orlando City vs Charlotte FC
    Exploria Stadium (7:30PM ET)
    REF: Fotis Bazakos
    AR1: CJ Morgante
    AR2: Kevin Klinger
    4TH: Natalie Simon
    VAR: Alejandro Mariscal
    AVAR: Jose Da Silva

    Chicago Fire vs New York Red Bulls
    Soldier Field (8PM ET)
    REF: Jon Freemon *1st game this season
    AR1: Jason White
    AR2: Meghan Mullen
    4TH: Chris Ruska
    VAR: Victor Rivas
    AVAR: Peter Manikowski

    Sporting Kansas City vs FC Dallas
    Children’s Mercy Park (8:30PM ET)
    REF: Nima Saghafi
    AR1: Adam Wienckowski
    AR2: Diego Blas
    4TH: Lukasz Szpala
    VAR: Jose Carlos Rivero
    AVAR: Jonathan Johnson

    Colorado Rapids vs Portland Timbers
    Dick’s Sporting Goods Park (9PM ET)
    REF: Armando Villarreal
    AR1: Chris Wattam
    AR2: Adam Garner
    4TH: Thomas Snyder
    VAR: Edvin Jurisevic
    AVAR: Craig Lowry

    05/01/22

    New York City FC vs San Jose Earthquakes
    Yankee Stadium (1PM ET)
    REF: Guido Gonzales Jr
    AR1: Matthew Nelson
    AR2: Brooke Mayo
    4TH: Elijio Arreguin
    VAR: Jair Marrufo
    AVAR: Claudiu Badea

    Nashville vs Philadelphia Union
    GEODIS Park (4PM ET) on ESPN
    REF: Chris Penso
    AR1: Jeremy Hanson
    AR2: Mike Rottersman
    4TH: Tori Penso
    VAR: Kevin Terry Jr
    AVAR: Eric Weisbrod

    Los Angeles FC vs Minnesota United
    Banc of California Stadium (10PM ET) on FS1
    REF: Allen Chapman
    AR1: Cory Richardson
    AR2: Chris Elliott
    4TH: Ricardo Fierro
    VAR: Edvin Jurisevic
    AVAR: Craig Lowry
     
  2. ptref

    ptref Member

    Manchester United
    United States
    Aug 5, 2015
    Bowling Green, KY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Is this the first time that Chris and Tori Penso have been assigned to a MLS match together?
     
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  3. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member+

    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    Des Moines, IA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Certainly one way for MLS and PRO to reduce travel costs. ;)
     
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  4. Ismitje

    Ismitje Super Moderator

    Dec 30, 2000
    The Palouse
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    VAR with a big call to take an LA Galaxy equalizer off the board in stoppage time in Utah:

    https://www.mlssoccer.com/video/doe...y-s-stoppage-time-equalizer-at-real-salt-lake

    I can't quite decide what happened here. Maybe it's that he passive guy came back onside and then pushed - however slightly - the RSL defender? This not being passive any longer? The push alone doesn't seem egregious enough to merit the call, but maybe it did.
     
  5. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Looks like a pretty easy "challenging an opponent for the ball" situation to me.
     
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  6. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Weird night
     
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  7. StarTime

    StarTime Member+

    United States
    Oct 18, 2020
    Really interesting second half in Chicago for John Freemon following a weather delay. First in roughly the 55th minute, he looked like reaching for a yellow card for NY’s Fletcher which would have been his second, but opted for just a warning instead and Fletcher was subbed out immediately.

    Then the last fifteen minutes had a lot of incident. First, a second yellow to Chicago’s Duran for SPA; in previous years this would have seemed harsh but this year it’s a more understandable decision. Still, I’m not sure about it.

    Immediately after, NY’s Klimala commuted a foul in his own half that was possibly SPA. It feels like SPA to me but the camera angle wasn’t wide enough for me to really know.

    Then Freemon suffers some rather bad luck just moments later when Chicago’s Czichos committed a foul that was much more clear SPA than the others, earning his second yellow and reducing Chicago to nine men.

    Then the VAR Rivas recommended a penalty for NY, and the check took a very long time due to apparent technical difficulties (more bad luck!), and Freemon came out with a penalty eventually.

    Interested to hear everyone’s opinions here on these five calls (well, the Czichos one is very obvious, but certainly the other four have some room for discussion).
     
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  8. StarTime

    StarTime Member+

    United States
    Oct 18, 2020
    What was the call on the field here? Wasn’t watching the game but based on this video it looks like they caught it on the field, so why the OFR?
     
  9. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    1520631484943454208 is not a valid tweet id


    There was also a red card (second yellow) and a VAR overturn of a goal for offside keeper interference. Busy night.
     
  10. Sport Billy

    Sport Billy Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 25, 2006
    The push doesn't matter.
    He was in an offside position when the ball was played.
    He then challenged an opponent for the ball.
    It doesn't matter if he contacts the opponent at all.
    He challenged for the ball after coming from an offside position.
    Violation - good call.

    It pisses me off that MLS inserts doubt on a referee making a correct textbook call.
     
  11. StarTime

    StarTime Member+

    United States
    Oct 18, 2020
    Another VAR intervention without a changed decision, this time late in Nashville. I agree with Penso, the arm is wide but it’s in a natural position for the given action. No handball was the correct call for me, wrong to send it down to review IMO.
     
  12. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    So many rejected reviews. We're certainly not in England.
     
  13. Sportsfan783

    Sportsfan783 Member

    FC Dallas
    Oct 8, 2010
    Midland, TX
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Honest question.

    How can a referee issue a yellow for time wasting before time has been wasted?

    In the SKC/FCD game. At 93:02 the balls goes out of bounds for a goal kick. It rebounds back into play and keeper goes towards it. Almost immediately Nima Saghafi is blowing his whistle at 93:05 and issuing a yellow to FCD goal keeper at around 92:08 for time wasting.

    Why isn’t time wasting called early in the game to set the standard? Why isn’t it called consistently?
     
  14. Ghastly Officiating

    Tottenham Hotspur
    United States
    Oct 12, 2017
    He actually warned the keeper on a previous goal kick about wasting time. The goal kick he cautioned the keeper on, the keeper chose to not get the ball right next to the goal on the stand and instead trotted over to get a ball on the field near the sideline. He must have told the keeper to keep things moving and not chase after balls since there is one readily available to him.
     
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  15. Sportsfan783

    Sportsfan783 Member

    FC Dallas
    Oct 8, 2010
    Midland, TX
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #15 Sportsfan783, May 1, 2022
    Last edited: May 1, 2022
    Why should that matter though? Aren’t GK allowed 10 seconds to get the ball back in play? How does Saghafi know how much time it would have taken to get the other ball back in play? That is getting rather Orwellian to caution a player for what you think they might do. Saghafi determined this in 3 seconds before he blew the whistle. 3 Seconds!

    Time Melia took upwards of 40 seconds to get a ball back in play earlier in the game sitting on a 1-0 lead (one instance was game time 29:44-30:22). No one bats an eye. Does the end of the game matter more in terms of time wasting? I thought a foul was a foul whether it’s the 1st minute or the last.
     
  16. USSF REF

    USSF REF Guest

    The player in the offside position has interfered with the opponent and any one of these three appear to apply:

    • challenging an opponent for the ball or

    • clearly attempting to play a ball which is close when this action impacts on an opponent or

    • making an obvious action which clearly impacts on the ability of an opponent to play the ball
     
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  17. USSF REF

    USSF REF Guest

    Controversy begets clicks.
     
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  18. Midwest Ref

    Midwest Ref Member

    Jul 25, 2002
    There is no legitimate reason for him to ignore the ball that is on the stand right next to the goal and go on a 40 yard excursion to get a different ball. Everyone is more sensitive to time wasting at the end of the game, referees included.
     
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  19. davidjd

    davidjd Member+

    Jun 30, 2000
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Never heard this one. Anyone else?
     
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  20. Sport Billy

    Sport Billy Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 25, 2006
    But it's their refs they are making look bad.
     
  21. davidjd

    davidjd Member+

    Jun 30, 2000
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think it's ignorance more than clicks quite frankly.
     
  22. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The only thing I'm surprised about with the LAG goal getting called back in Salt Lake is that it was awarded in the first place. Offside position is abundantly clear. Contact with an opponent exists or, if that can't be discerned in real time, they are so close to each other that "challenging" is inherent unless the referee team deems the ball is too far away to be played. It also seems, from the video above, like the LA players were protesting to Nesbitt before a VAR review was called, so the implication appears to be she was giving Fischer information that would lead to a "no goal" call but... that call actually wasn't made?

    I guess I'm just confused why this was called "goal" and it was put on the VAR to annul instead of being called "no goal" the whole way through. Did Fischer want the trip to the monitor here to make it seem like a more thorough decision? He's done something like that before. Or did he have doubts over the "challenging" aspect of the call even though Nesbitt had the OSP correct?
     
  23. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    Here's my guess on how it happened. From the AR perspective, it was too hard to tell if there was an actual challenge for the ball, as it was impossible from that angle to tell if the ball was coming close enough to those too to be a challenge (or for the contact to have interfered with the ability of the attacker to try to get to the ball). So that was up to the R to determine interference with an opponent. And that may not have been the players our R was focused on--not enough to wave off the goal, perhaps because he wasn't sure an perhaps because he preferred the optics of it being waved off after VAR to a latish on-field wave off.

    (While this is an easy call in an academic setting and should certainly be caught live by professionals, I suspect at lower levels it is more often called "correctly" because the AR loses sight of the interference requirement and flags when the ball is coming in towards the general direction of an OSP attacker than because the AR/R correctly recognize the nature of the active involvement.)
     
  24. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Having watched the whole thing, I'm also just realizing that the Galaxy were celebrating near Nesbitt rather than coming over for the purpose of protesting. It seems that players/substitutes then started to overhear the conversation she was having with Fischer, when some of the doubts were being expressed and hashed out. Having a bit more information right now, I think she and Fischer just defaulted to goal amidst all the confusion but I have a high degree of certainty that Nesbitt knew the correct call the whole time.
     
  25. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    As far as "2CT week" goes, most seemed solid/mandatory except maybe Elfath's second (justifiable, but I also don't think anyone would have said a word if it wasn't given) and then Freemon's first, which is discussed above and probably falls in a similar category.

    On the penalty decisions that have been raised, I'm interested to hear what PRO says about Freemon's at the end of the match. It's a different type of challenge, but I think it's similar to the one discussed with Marrufo last week in the sense that a no-foul call can be justified despite the contact (because you start asking all sorts of questions about who was there first, who fell when, etc.). It seems like the type of call that should be or have been left in place no matter what the initial decision is/was. But maybe PRO feels differently.

    On Penso's, I'm totally fine with him keeping his decision. It's that rare handball decision that, in the current environment, I think can go either way. Like Freemon's, I think "call stands" works either way. The arm is out some but it doesn't seem like he makes himself "unnaturally bigger" until after the contact, so the positioning felt pretty close to natural at the time the handball contact occurred. Again, we'll see what PRO says.
     

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