2022 MLS Week 08 Referee Discussion

Discussion in 'MLS Referee Forum' started by A66C, Apr 21, 2022.

  1. A66C

    A66C Member

    N/A
    United States
    Jan 3, 2022
    04/23/22

    FC Dallas vs Houston Dynamo
    Toyota Stadium (3PM ET)
    REF: Victor Rivas
    AR1: Brooke Mayo
    AR2: Jeffrey Swartzel
    4TH: Pierre-Luc Lauziere
    VAR: Armando Villarreal
    AVAR: TJ Zablocki

    Philadelphia Union vs CF Montréal
    Subaru Park (3PM ET)
    REF: Lukasz Szpala
    AR1: Logan Brown
    AR2: Justin Howard
    4TH: Joshua Encarnacion
    VAR: Timothy Ford
    AVAR: Mike Kampmeinert

    Minnesota United vs Chicago Fire
    Allianz Field (5PM ET) on ESPN
    REF: Silviu Petrescu
    AR1: Adam Wienckowski
    AR2: Lyes Arfa
    4TH: Joe Dickerson
    VAR: Jose Carlos Rivero
    AVAR: Corey Rockwell

    D.C. United vs New England Revolution
    Audi Field (7:30PM ET)
    REF: Marcos DeOliveira
    AR1: Gianni Facchini
    AR2: Tyler Wyrostek
    4TH: Elvis Osmanovic
    VAR: Edvin Jurisevic
    AVAR: Craig Lowry

    Austin FC vs Vancouver Whitecaps
    Q2 Stadium (8:30PM ET)
    REF: Ramy Touchan
    AR1: Matthew Nelson
    AR2: Gjovalin Bori
    4TH: Luis Guardia
    VAR: Chico Grajeda
    AVAR: Jose Da Silva

    Sporting Kansas City vs Columbus Crew
    Children’s Mercy Park (8:30PM ET)
    REF: Fotis Bazakos
    AR1: Chris Wattam
    AR2: Kevin Klinger
    4TH: Natalie Simon
    VAR: Sorin Stoica
    AVAR: Peter Manikowski

    Colorado Rapids vs Charlotte FC
    Dick’s Sporting Goods Park (9PM ET)
    REF: Ismir Pekmic
    AR1: Jason White
    AR2: Ian McKay
    4TH: Drew Fischer
    VAR: Jorge Gonzalez
    AVAR: Jeff Muschik

    Portland Timbers vs Real Salt Lake
    Providence Park (10PM ET)
    REF: Chris Penso
    AR1: Ian Anderson
    AR2: Meghan Mullen
    4TH: Andrew Bigelow
    VAR: Kevin Terry Jr
    AVAR: Eric Weisbrod

    San Jose Earthquakes vs Seattle Sounders
    PayPal Park (10PM ET)
    REF: Ted Unkel
    AR1: Jeremy Hanson
    AR2: Frank Anderson
    4TH: Brandon Stevis
    VAR: Younes Marrakchi
    AVAR: Felisha Mariscal

    LA Galaxy vs Nashville
    Dignity Health Sports Park (10:30PM ET)
    REF: Allen Chapman
    AR1: Cameron Blanchard
    AR2: Oscar Mitchell-Carvalho
    4TH: JC Griggs
    VAR: Kevin Stott
    AVAR: Rene Parra

    04/24/22

    Inter Miami vs Atlanta United
    DRV PNK Stadium (1PM ET) on ESPN
    REF: Jair Marrufo
    AR1: Jeff Hosking
    AR2: Kathryn Nesbitt
    4TH: Nima Saghafi
    VAR: Jose Carlos Rivero
    AVAR: Jeff Muschik

    Orlando City vs New York Red Bulls
    Exploria Stadium (3:30PM ET) on ESPN
    REF: Alex Chilowicz
    AR1: Nick Uranga
    AR2: Micheal Barwegen
    4TH: Tori Penso
    VAR: Timothy Ford
    AVAR: Mike Kampmeinert

    FC Cincinnati vs Los Angeles FC
    TQL Stadium (5PM ET) on FOX
    REF: Ismail Elfath
    AR1: Brian Dunn
    AR2: Diego Blas
    4TH: Sergii Demianchuk
    VAR: Jorge Gonzalez
    AVAR: TJ Zablocki

    New York City FC vs Toronto FC
    Citi Field (5PM ET)
    REF: Rubiel Vazquez
    AR1: Cory Richardson
    AR2: Ryan Graves
    4TH: Matt Thompson
    VAR: Armando Villarreal
    AVAR: Tom Supple
     
  2. GlennAA11

    GlennAA11 Member+

    Jun 12, 2001
    Arlington, VA
  3. asoc

    asoc Member+

    Sep 28, 2007
    Tacoma
    Seattle @ San Jose.
    Ruidiaz draws a PK. Defender gets yellow.

    VAR sends it down for review for a red card.

    Ted Unkel doesn't change the card after review.

    On the broadcast they kept showing an angle from midfield camera and I think it was a horrible angle to show the contact.

    Ruidiaz is lucky the studs slid off his shin as his leg was planted in the ground and wasn't going anywhere if the contact was an inch different.

    I was questioning whether it would be sent down as a clear and obvious error given the yellow. But it was.
     
  4. mfw13

    mfw13 Member+

    Jul 19, 2003
    Seattle
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    Would like to hear some opinions on this....the announcers thought it was studs to knee and that it should have been upgraded to a red.
     
  5. gaolin

    gaolin Member+

    Apr 21, 2019
    Everyone gets one shot at the knee. No more!
     
  6. pr0ner

    pr0ner Member+

    Jan 13, 2007
    Alexandria, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I am confused about Maruffo not calling a penalty on Miami after that video review.
     
  7. GlennAA11

    GlennAA11 Member+

    Jun 12, 2001
    Arlington, VA
    I am baffled too. Looks like a clear foul.

    I'm also surprised that the SJ-SEA review wasn't a red card. That looked pretty high. Hopefully it will be in the video for next week so we can figure out how he decided
     
    gaolin repped this.
  8. soccerref69420

    soccerref69420 Member+

    President of the Antonio Miguel Mateu Lahoz fan cub
    Mar 14, 2020
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea DPR
    I see no issue with this being a caution. It's a reckless slide with no chance to play the ball that only doesn't make contact (which would make this an easy yellow) because the attacker jumps in the air to avoid it, which is also stopping his promising attack as well, because if that reckless slide doesn't occur, the attacker was on his way to the box.

    I saw a similar no contact reckless slide attacker jumps out of the way caution given in a USOC highlight on here. These players shouldn't get to get bailed out of a reckless challenge just because the attacker has to contort to avoid it.
     
    GlennAA11 and StarTime repped this.
  9. StarTime

    StarTime Member+

    United States
    Oct 18, 2020
    Reminder that all video reviews, even those not covered in the Inside Video Review video, are covered in PRO’s weekly The Definitive Angle article. That article gives PRO’s opinion on each video review.
     
  10. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Initial thoughts on Unkel and Marrufo, without seeing or hearing anything about the specific processes and knowing exactly which angles were shown at the RRA...

    My gut is Unkel's defense will be he couldn't quite tell how flush/direct the mode of contact was onto the leg. Yes, about 90% of what you need for a red card was clearly present there. But, once a yellow is given, if video can't prove the point of contact is flush instead of glancing, I think many referees might say the yellow isn't a clear mistake. Particularly in the 10th minute of a game where the player doesn't appear to be seriously injured and a penalty is already the result (not that a referee would ever consider those three factors, of course). All that said, I wouldn't be surprised if PRO said Unkel was wrong to stick with yellow. Seems a 50/50 call based on what PRO has said on similar SFP-esque challenges. I'm sure there will be a lot of internal discussion this week on that one.

    For Marrufo, I think he's completely right. Yes, there's contact. Yes, it's a foolish "challenge." But it's so, so, so soft, the contact itself is trifling relative to how it actually affected the attacker's run, and the attacker turns it into a massive swan dive with all the tell-tale signs of simulation. To use video review to pick out the one minor piece of contact and then turn it into a clear foul is... wrong. And good on Marrufo for sticking with what he had in real-time. I think PRO will support him.

    One very minor and funny thing I caught was in the 46' of Chilowicz's match. He gets hit with the ball and stops play for a dropped ball. Shows great interaction with players to manage it. Then he drops it and the Miami player touches it down with his hand as if he would to make sure that a quick free kick is stationary. Chilowicz simply let play go on without any fuss, though I'm sure it's the kind of thing that would cause borderline aneurysms for certain types of officials.
     
    jarbitro repped this.
  11. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    I'm pretty sure that PRO will say it should be a red card. From what it looks like they want the bar to be much lower for SFP than in years past. It has to "look and feel" like a red card. Not all the boxes have to be checked to give a red card for SFP via VAR unlike say DOGSO or offside. It doesn't have to be "clear and obvious."
     
  12. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    But it does, right?

    Like the barometer for what constitutes "clear and obvious" on SFP VAR reviews has oscillated the past few years, but the standard does still exist. It's just a question of how clear something be to trigger the actual overturning. To the extent you're implying or asserting that VARs were instructed to be more liberal in what they sent down this year and to go more with their gut on plays that just looked/felt like red cards, you're absolutely correct. That happened and I think everyone involved knew it would lead to more send-downs for red cards this year. Figuring out how often that leads to actual red cards and how long any new standard sticks (like DTR and SPA initiatives) is still anyone's guess.

    I think PRO will say Unkel is wrong here. I don't know if PRO would say Unkel is wrong if he did the same exact thing come October.
     
    seattlebeach repped this.
  13. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Pekmic got body-checked by Kaye(?) in the Colorado-Charlotte game. Just two people trying to be in the same place at the same time during play but Pekmic had his back partially turned and didn't see it coming. Took a good tumble and Kaye (or whomever it was) did his best to check on him while not being distracted from the ongoing Charlotte possession.
     
    gaolin repped this.
  14. mfw13

    mfw13 Member+

    Jul 19, 2003
    Seattle
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    The other issue with Unkel is that the review took 4-5 minutes.....foul is in the 10th minute, PK is taken in the 15th. That's waaaaaaaay too long....took 2-3 minutes before Unkel even went to the monitor.
     
  15. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Which isn't Unkel's fault.

    Not picking on you here, but we do have to assign blame correctly. Unkel--and every other MLS referee--goes to the monitor the moment the VAR says "I recommend a review for..." If it took three minutes for the VAR to say that, then that's on the VAR. Now, the caveat here is that the VAR is not just checking whether it's a red card. He's also spending some time with the AVAR checking whether or not there was an offside before the penalty was awarded; but that shouldn't take too long in this case.

    This could have been faster, definitely. But you've got a rare situation (SFP check on a penalty) which clouds the normal check on the penalty and the clearing of the APP. You then have a referee disagree with a recommendation, which will always take longer. And then there were discussions/protests/explanations after Unkel came back from the monitor. So this was always going to take longer than the ideal scenario.
     
  16. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd


    Instant Replay is not a good barometer of MLS officiating on a week to week basis but I have to say some of the non-decisions they posted this week are really head scratching from a VAR and non-VAR perspective.

    The two incidents in Orlando. I mean the Ruan play is a red card. It's clearly deliberate. I can see the VAR not sending that down as you can make do some mental gymnastics that he didn't mean to step on his neck.

    But the penalty for handling? No VAR send down?

    The Nashville vs. LA penalty kick? How are you not getting that in real time and where is VAR? It's such a textbook penalty.

    Same thing with the foul in NYCFC and Toronto. The video shows that contact is clear.

    I don't think this was a good week for VAR.
     
  17. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    There was no call on the field and VAR sent it down. It resulted in a penalty. Honestly, I actually think it's on the border. You can make a pretty decent argument that arm is where it's going to always be as part of a natural jumping motion. But we've seen those given somewhat regularly now, so it is what it is.

    Yeah, these two are bizarre.

    I thought the Morales red card in NYC would get a look. Honestly, I felt it was a mess. It doesn't seem like it's a foul. If it is a foul, it's DOGSO red. But Vazquez went 2CT so none of it could be reviewed. NYCFC won 5-4, so no harm, no foul in the match itself. But I'd be surprised if Webb and co. weren't getting an earful today on that one.
     
  18. gaolin

    gaolin Member+

    Apr 21, 2019
    What minute?

    I ask because this happened to me three weeks ago so I want to commiserate :)
     
    JasonMa repped this.
  19. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Early/mid second-half I think but I don't remember exactly. It was in the Rapids attacking half, closer to the center circle than the box. Play was coming up Charlotte's left side.
     
  20. seattlebeach

    seattlebeach Member

    AFC Richmond
    May 11, 2015
    Not Seattle, Not Beach
  21. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    I don’t think they are saying anything relating to embellishment, just referring to a rule that also includes embellishment. (Of course, it could have been more clearly written—they must shar copy editors with IFAB…)
     
    IASocFan, StarTime and GlennAA11 repped this.
  22. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think they're just trying to say that the DisCo acted on this missed red card because it was an issue of player safety. They can find/suspend in certain circumstances for simulation/embellishment as well, but that's not relevant here.
     
  23. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think the relevant line that @seattlebeach pointed out is just a typo or a bad cut/paste job, honestly.

    Either way, yes, this previews what Barkey is likely to say tomorrow.
     
  24. seattlebeach

    seattlebeach Member

    AFC Richmond
    May 11, 2015
    Not Seattle, Not Beach
    Yep - it's a typo or a repeated copy/paste mistake, because the same issue shows up on at least Week 6. The actual rule is at https://www.mlssoccer.com/about/competition-guidelines; the writeup is missing the words in bold - "and do not issue a red card or act on a case of clear and obvious simulation/embellishment"

    Yours in pedantry -
     
    IASocFan and ManiacalClown repped this.

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