US Open Cup 2022

I again appreciate all your guys input. I think I'll just stop having overall opinions watching these USOC matches, because I am not coming from any level of knowledge. The only soccer matches I watch on TV are the highest level tournament matches like World Cup, Euros, and Champions league knockout stages. I don't watch MLS or even Premier League.

But at the same time, this is why I really appreciate gaolin for posting them, because otherwise I would have literally no experience to add to my referee knowledge bank outside of the occasional clips I see from EPL ref decisions or from webinars. It is really helpful for me to see these USL, NPSL, UPSL levels of match and what types of events to expect from them and generally how to handle them, at least after some more knowledgeable posters here share their opinions.

 

I completely and 100% agree with calling matches tight. In fact, that's the way I generally referee matches because I see firsthand how the uncalled fouls lead to games getting out of control, and I very rarely deal with dissent and never get out of control games. But I would figure that these higher level sub-professional players might complain about "not being allowed to play" if you call too tightly. But yeah, it's better to call tight and keep a game in control than too loose and let it get out of hand.

And your point about advantage is also something I have noticed, but then that comes back into my point about how we are always taught in training and webinars about applying advantage, our knowledge base about advantage mainly comes from the pro level, and we are trying to apply it to sub-professional players...

 

Excellent observation.
The instruction concerning advantage for lower level referees is incorrect IMO.

PH

 

Could not agree more. 95% of advantage decisions at the grassroots level are incorrect and the referee should have instead just called a foul.

 

RE: Advantage calls discussion. Grassroots here. I have to disagree with the "95% of the time incorrect" being thrown around. I officiate plenty of games where there are legit advantage plays which (humbly) I know I called correctly.

I agree with calling games tight early on, and I have seen it work (and not work!) for myself. I am a supporter of that style.

It's excessive to say 95% of adv. decisions at grassroots are incorrect.

When it is called wrong at my level, often it is simply not bringing the foul back after no play materializes-- that's a hard thing to do without experience.

Love this thread people, thank you for all the insight.

 

i think most advantage calls should be done in the attacking 3rd and not as often as described. I think a factor for the 95% of advantage calls being incorrect is that most of the time referees at the grassroots levels are also officiating teams at average levels of play at best. So those skilled players don’t necessarily have the skill sets to play thru or make full use of the advantage. That and officials not always making a good distinction with trifling vs non-trifiling. I’ve seen it called way too often at the lower levels.

I’ll also chime in that if you’re having to go back for an advantage that never materialized. Why not call the foul in the first place?

one of the attributes of a referee is having game control. letting an advantage play and then going back doesn’t rein in the same game control as simply calling the foul immediately.

 

Because I cannot see into the future?

Anyway, not being cheeky, I appreciate the feedback, it helps.

 

This 100%.

There are two types of referees out there. The ones who do it for money and some exercise only. They wish every game was 6-0 with 5 fouls called and no cards.

The other kind of referee is the one who is interested in moving up and getting to the highest level possible. From my experience, the two above almost never overlap. You're never gonna find a referee who is interested in doing competitive high level soccer who wants to move up who wishes every game was 6-0.

As @MassachusettsRef said, part of the fun and challenge of refereeing soccer is the pressure that is placed on you and the challenge of trying to keep 22 knuckleheads from killing each other.

I can't speak for others but one of the great rewards/feelings/highs of refereeing is when you just finished a high level amateur match with 10-12 yellow cards, two-three red cards and a couple of penalty kick incidents and both sets of players are coming to shake your hand saying "good job" ref.

There is no greater feeling than knowing you nailed a really difficult game and you got almost everything right. You're exhausted after the game, but you know you did a good job on that game. It's such a rush.

On the flip side there is no worse feeling when a game goes to shit and you know you screwed up and the players are mobbing you after the game and you have to give a red card or two after the game.

Now refereeing wouldn't be "fun" if every single game was like the one I mentioned above. Even professional referees want a 5-0 game every now and then.

I can stress enough how really prestigious a US Open Cup match is. Short of an MLS match, there really is no bigger assignment that is available to a referee in this country.

For referees that don't ever make it to MLS, it's really the biggest (in terms of competitiveness) that any referee will ever receive. It's even more memorable if it happens to involve an MLS team.

 

You’re all good. Again how likely was it to be a possible advantage, you don’t have to be a future seeker to know when there is a possibility for a high chance of a promising attack from an advantage.

just keep it simple.

 

Looking up and down this board, there are more than two types of referees out there.

Just because you keep current, share ideas, seek/give feedback, recruit refs, assign refs, and venture beyond the Circle of Excellence doesn't mean you are gunning to be a National or even a Regional. I hope to evolve even though I am almost certainly never to progress. 16 years in and I hope to have another 16+,

I don't at all dispute that there are money-grubbers out there--we've all seen them. I only mean that advancement to higher levels is not the only way to not be a money-grubber, and make a meaningful contribution to the game.

 

But do you strive to do the best and most competitive game available to your level? You can be a career grade 8/grassroots referee who wants to get the a U16 middle on the last day of youth state cup that decides who goes too regional and doesn't.

Or get a division 1 men's middle that decides who gets relegated at the end of the season.

As long as you're striving to get the best game available to your level and ability.

You can be a career grade 8 referee and be upset when "X referee gets that game instead of me."

 

I think it is also true that unskilled teams don’t use most FKs effectively.

I think some of the “no advantage” at grass roots goes too far. But I also think too many refs ask the wrong question, which leads to those incorrect possession=advantage decisions. It seems to me that if we are asking “is continuing play better for the fouled team than continuing,” we end up with a skill appropriate answer. And, as others have made clear, we can’t model after the pros in the games most of us do

 

One of my friends had a wonderful US Open Cup experience some time ago. He was a 40 something grade 5 and was scheduled to be AR1 for a USL Pro v. MLS game. The former team's head coach hated all local referees, without exception, and this game was going to be a home game. My friend got a call a day before the game. The assigned referee, from out of town (this was before PRO) was not going to be able to make it due to some transportation snafu. My friend was going to have the whistle. About 15,000 screaming fans in the stands, sold out. When he arrives, he realizes that the visiting MLS coach is a former teammate!

The game goes to OT and KFTPM. Visiting team wins. No problems, no 'situations,' nothing. National Assessor tells him that this is going to be the take off point for his career. The next year he's a National.

 

I agree with this as well. I much prefer competitive matches. My matches where I give out a number of cautions are definitely my best ones, and it feels good knowing that I handled a competitive match well.

I was overly dramatic with my original post about asking why a referee would take these matches. I saw video of a few scuffles or VC incidents that were intentionally posted because they were outliers to the competition as a whole but I used that to assume the entire competition is like this. It's just that mass confrontations are one of my biggest worries happening in a game where I have to try to run in and control something like that without panicking.

When it comes to advantage specifically, I have started doing a lot more wait and see and calling fouls back after a few seconds rather than applying advantage. I have stopped calling it as much because I noticed myself doing this exact Mike Dean in games: doing wait and see, give advantage, it's lost basically right after my arms go out, and then I shake my head wishing I shouldn't have given it



But when centering MLS Next I do my best to defer to advantage because the players and coaches want it.

 

I have confidence based in experience that higher-level games will be part of my diet, yes. State Cup, all the alphabet soup, etc. HS playoffs too though I grant that's obviously not USSF (especially here in PA!).

I also have a deep and abiding interest in one, adding to our ranks, and two, helping others at all points in their career. Maybe I should say "career," since many kids for example might ref for me in HS and that's it. Even so, there is stuff they need to know that's not written or taught elsewhere.

A former HS coach here talked about seeing things through a funnel. Parents tend to look through the narrow end, focused only or mostly on their own kids. Coaches tend to look through the wide end, not ignoring a given kid but seeing all the others as well, and seeing how they interact. Might not be original to him but it has stuck with me.

Do I have desires and designs for games? Sure I do. But there are a lot more games that need attention than those juicy ones, and if this week I'm getting full crews on 15 Travel games by mentoring new CRs from the line, and maybe sending a couple kids to the next town over as a bonus, that's a good day too.

 

Even with a big stoppage time board the center didn't do it? Come on. Hopefully there will be some good clips today. I expect a nice handful of scuffles and red cards.

 

Hopefully nothing from the Louisville City vs St Louis match. I just got assigned to this game today. If something does come up, I will be happy to provide an explanation as best I can.

 

Good luck! It’s always fun to see people with some sort of connection on these games. One of our fellow referees in the Des Moines area is a new national and in PRO2. We try to make the games he works if they are reasonable driving distance and the weather isn’t too terrible.

 

Fun fact: "A player originally selected for the match day roster of up to 18 who is deemed not able to play may be replaced prior to kickoff by another player on the team’s official league roster with the consent of the referee and will not be eligible to compete in the match in which he was replaced."
While it doesn't explicitly state this, the only reason a player can be removed from the starting 11 after the rosters are handed over is when they are 'deemed not able to play' and therefore cannot play in the rest of the match. How do I know that? I was on the phone to US Soccer last night after 90 seconds before kickoff time, an assistant coach pointed out that someone starting on the opposing team was marked as reserve on the roster.

 

4th officials nightmare!!

 

Happy to report no major incidents in Louisville last night. 120 minutes of scoreless play followed by 10 rounds from the spot before we had a winner. I swear the hardest part of the game was all the paperwork and administrative BS we had to deal with before and after the game. But overall, had a great time. Just really tired this morning.

 

Watched a good chunk of this game on ESPN+. Nice work! The broadcast crew even complimented you saying the game flowed well and cards were used at good times.

 

I was Match Commissioner trying to run interference for the 4th and on the phone with US Soccer.