2021-2022 UEFA Referee Discussion [R]

Discussion in 'Referee' started by MassachusettsRef, Jul 14, 2021.

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  1. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I’m presuming Orsato is available. I think the big question is whether or not this week’s game confirms Siebert as Germany’s trusted #1 and a safe pair of hands for a semi OR it was a minor setback and his meteoric rise is delayed a year. I tend to believe it’s the former. Bayern’s out and he can be appointed, so I think he will be.

    I’m not sure how to sort each leg out, but I’ll go/stick with:

    Orsato/Turpin on Real v City
    Siebert/Marciniak on Liverpool v Villarreal

    Kovacs/Vincic seem like the other obvious two in the mix. Seeing buzz for Soares Dias but that seems misplaced in my eyes.
     
  2. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd


    VAR was supposed to end dissent...I thought.

    Even though Medel has been a dick his entire career, the referee totally egged Medel on here and drew the second red card.
     
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  3. Mikael_Referee

    Mikael_Referee Member+

    Jun 16, 2019
    England
    Juan Luca Sacchi has quite a funny style, you can see him screaming at Gerard Deulofeu in another game if you look online. I actually quite like it! He doesn't let himself be the 'loser' when the players challenge his authority (same as Sánchez Martínez). For this reason, I'm not even sure the yellow card was necessary here. And did Sacchi send him off for foul and abusive, or with a SYC for dissent? If the latter, then we can say that Sacchi lost his composure in this scene too, with the (lack of) card showing procedure.
     
  4. Mikael_Referee

    Mikael_Referee Member+

    Jun 16, 2019
    England
    Keith Hackett:

    Felipe’s early elbow to the back of Phil Foden’s head, albeit unintentional, which left the Manchester City midfielder bleeding and requiring a bandage, was reckless at a bare minimum, undoubtedly a yellow card and potentially more. Incredibly, he received no punishment.

    How was that allowed to happen? To me, it looked like it met the threshold of a ‘clear and obvious error’ so where was the Video Assistant Referee? If it did not fulfil the criteria then the threshold needs to be lowered because it would have allowed the referee to take another look at the incident.

    Well. :D
     
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  5. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member+

    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    Des Moines, IA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Hackett forgot to add, “But this isn’t an issue in a Premier League match.” :)
     
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  6. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Astounding.
     
  7. Thegreatwar

    Thegreatwar Member

    Seacoast United
    May 28, 2015
    New Hampshire
    Sorry to dredge up something a month old, but what do you guys think of this DOGSO RC by Turpin from Montpellier-Nice?
    Incident starts at 2:44 :

    I’m don’t think it’s a foul by the defender, but I understand why Turpin gave it live since my initial thought had been DOGSO as well. There was no VAR intervention, but maybe there should’ve been?

    Also there was a somewhat controversial decision by Mateu Lahoz to uphold his on-field call of NO Penalty for handling by Leipzig after an OFR. Incident starts at 4:19 :


    I felt the original call was supportable, so I question whether the OFR was warranted.

    incidentally, the handling in the wall from the preceding free kick seemed somewhat harsh on replay (unfortunately omitted from the embedded highlights). The player’s arm came up seemingly to protect his face from the oncoming ball. Is that (protecting your face) considered relevant under the current LOTG wrt handling?
     
  8. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #1033 code1390, Apr 17, 2022
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2022
  9. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    https://streamff.com/v/5f80d2

    More from RM/Sevilla

    Probably one of the clearest wall infractions that should be called that we've seen since the introduction of this law change. Is this the new backpass and six second where it just will never get called?
     
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  10. TxSooner

    TxSooner Member

    Aug 12, 2011
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Personally, I'd be in favor of no intervention here, though this is going by my own clear and obvious standard which would likely lead to VAR being used once out of every 8 to 10 matches.

    If there any sort of reasonable debate over something that is "pretty close", leave it alone. Though, that ship has already sailed. I'd be fine with a live call either way on this one, and lean towards handling after looking at the replay.
     
  11. balu

    balu Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    UEFA women's EURO list released. 12+1, with the 1 being Calderas from Venezuela. Pustovoitova missed out on an otherwise certain inclusion. As with the Rapallini - Gil Manzano men's exchange, a European refereeing team will be at the Copa America Femenina 2022.

    Several familiar names in the VAR list, including Kavanagh, Cuadra Fernandez, Dingert, Mariani, and van Boekel.

    http://www.uefa.com/womenseuro/news...4-1000--uefa-women-s-euro-referees-appointed/
     
  12. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The actual incident itself is fascinating. He called... nothing? But doesn't advantage look like it materializes here? It's would be a DFK at the top of the 18 and an attacker took a shot at an open net that hit the crossbar. How was advantage not realized here? The ultimate opportunity was probably better than the one denied.

    I'm trying to wrap my head around all of this. If he never applied advantage and just missed the foul, then is VAR obligated to send down the DOGSO foul OR can VAR consider advantage and say a red card foul did not exist because of that? And is the referee obligated to consider the advantage aspect once in the RRA (I'd say yes)?

    If the referee did call advantage on-field... then what? Would the VAR be allowed to intervene if he saw DOGSO but the referee did not?

    It's all very, very, very complicated. But I watch all of this and can't help but think the referee got this very wrong in two different ways. First, by not calling the foul (because that advantage wasn't clearly going to materialize) and then by going with a DOGSO red after the OFR because, well, he got lucky and advantage DID materialize!

    8:10 below.

     
  13. gold4278

    gold4278 Member

    Feb 21, 2007
    Houston
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    What was the restart after the red?
     
  14. Mikael_Referee

    Mikael_Referee Member+

    Jun 16, 2019
    England
    Full sequence: https://streamable.com/zwxean

    I don't think Sacchi is ever going to blow up for the Adam challenge, rather a chaotic play on there. His whistle seems to be held on Medel's (a bit crazy) tackle, where as there is no contact, he can just play a passive advantage.

    The ref doesn't do himself any favours by his passive manner in the review portion of the incident, but I'm not completely convinced that Morata is definitely fouled. He puts his leg across an opponent not trying to tackle the ball, but rather block it. In any case, having done that (ie. given up the chance of running in at goal), is it really a DOGSO? I ask that rather rhetorically, as foul is surely the expected call.
     
  15. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I believe it was ultimately a DFK. It's the restart you see at 87:03. For a foul that occurred at 80:31.
     
  16. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You think the "football world" expects the foul and red card there after a teammate hits the crossbar on an open net?

    If this was a penalty, I could understand. But you're essentially giving a DFK after the team already had a chance which is much better than the DFK. I think that's both technically wrong and also not what most fans expect. But I'm open to arguments on both points.

    EDIT: I see you might just be saying you don't personally think it's a foul but others expect it to be called as such... would still like your thoughts on the above questions though!
     
  17. Mikael_Referee

    Mikael_Referee Member+

    Jun 16, 2019
    England
    The situation is complicated as it seems that the (Juventus) players are much more focused on mobbing Sacchi even while the ball is in play, so despite hitting the crossbar, they are most interested in getting this decision, much more than the goal chance that follows.

    As you rightly note, the advantage thing is a whole can of worms here. These are excellent questions that you raise, and should be considered by seminar instructors at the highest levels, but I fear each situation will be so specific that it is hard to actually have any hard-and-fast rules in place.

    Here, we are influenced by: 1) Juve players being more interested in mobbing Sacchi than actually scoring(!), despite as you say this chance being very considerable; 2) this scene not really being DOGSO as Morata checks, I guess we are saying that in a 'clear' DOGSO scene, it would actually be inconceivable for a referee to play advantage.

    If Sacchi does play a very visible advantage on the Adams foul, then... to be honest, I don't think that the intervention happens to be honest(?), as the situation is grey enough for that to be supported, I guess dependant on how 'obvious' and advantageous the advantage was. If it is ultra-obvious (like 100% open goal), then I guess the blame would shift from ref to player, no OFR. If a poor advantage call with scant real goal chance, then I guess RC would be given no problem. It is the middle scenes (like this one) where it becomes a really hard and a real judgement call.

    As you say, very interesting situation indeed!
     
  18. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    What a crazy situation from a VAR protocol perspective.

    If you consider that Juventus had their OGSO returned to them (and I'd say they did) then this becomes SPA and a goal kick. So should the VAR consider that advantage was realized on a situation in which the referee missed the foul? Would that then mean that this becomes a situation where they can't get involved?

    Like I said it makes some very interesting questions to ask with the protocol.
     
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  19. soccerref69420

    soccerref69420 Member+

    President of the Antonio Miguel Mateu Lahoz fan cub
    Mar 14, 2020
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea DPR
    Man, this clip brings up my Vietnam flashbacks of the worst no-call of my "career" last fall when a GK did a clear DOGSO foul on an attacker, I knew it was DOGSO, bringing up my whistle to my mouth, but attacker stayed on his feet and was looking at an open PA so wound up for a shot, I called advantage, then a defender races in full speed and clears the ball off the goal line. I nearly fell to my knees yelling out and had to give the keeper a YC only and a corner kick and the protestations from the crowd and the coaches yelling about how I can't give advantage on DOGSO.

    God help this referee and anyone else who has to go through such a situation. I can't think of a tougher call than these rare situations where you play advantage on a PA foul or DOGSO and then the team doesn't capitalize with a goal on the advantage you're playing.
     
  20. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Cakir back and appointed in Turkey on Sunday. Kind of doubt that opens him up for a UCL semifinal, but stranger things have happened and UEFA is pressed for personnel. Still think he'd more likely on one of the other competitions, if anything.
     
  21. balu

    balu Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
  22. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I genuinely think it's crazy enough to warrant guidance from the top. Have sent it around to a few who work as VAR/AVAR in MLS and there's a bit of a collective shoulder shrug. I've only done it once before (when accidental handling to score a goal became an offence but before it was clear that it didn't count as misconduct) but I emailed Elleray to see if IFAB has an answer. I believe Barkey and others in PRO will also take a look to see if they have an official position, given who else has been looking at it so far without a clear answer.

    And to be clear, rather than focus on this particular incident (in case people disagree on the particulars), the generic question based off this is: "how does VAR treat the question of advantage relative to DOGSO-red fouls given any application of advantage inherently downgrades the incident to a yellow card?" The corollaries or follow-ups would be whether or not the answer is different if the referee applies advantage himself or if the referee misses what the VAR feels is a clear advantage.

    I kind of get the feeling this is something that no one had ever considered...
     
  23. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Interesting moment early on with Lazio/Milan

    1518304345162489856 is not a valid tweet id


    That ball is going out for a goal kick if the keeper isn't there, so in the end it a yellow feels right. You could argue that it wasn't even SPA, but I guess the "game expects" a card there.

    It does feel like Serie A has had a ton of interesting moments to discuss this year.
     
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  24. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Manchester City : Real Madrid - KOVACS (ROU)

    Big piece of the puzzle falls into place in first assignment. Expect another “surprise,” too.
     
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  25. London_ref

    London_ref Member

    May 6, 2014
    London, England
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Sure is strange not seeing the likes of Brych, Cakir, Kuipers and Skomina etc as we have become accustomed to over the last decade.

    Breakout season for Kovacs for sure, no doubt taking advantage of the misfortune that has befallen his countryman.
     
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