US Open Cup 2022

Discussion in 'Referee' started by gaolin, Mar 22, 2022.

  1. gaolin

    gaolin Member+

    Apr 21, 2019
    Lynchburg vs Northern Virginia (NoVa)

    Referee blew his whistle A LOT with the same exact tone and a penalty that was reaaalllyyy soft (if not a dive..) and the game ended with two red cards. Enjoy! FC Motown v West Chester United went really smooth, though.

    1. 84' Penalty https://streamja.com/q5W2y
    2. 89' Yellow (Small fracas) https://streamja.com/29pNk
    3. 90' Double Red Card
      1. Part one https://streamja.com/n3R0O
      2. Part two https://streamja.com/0jdJa
    The 2nd red (for De Souza; black team) seemed to be for DT (or Abusive Language) or perhaps they both got into. Cameras didn't catch it... only the wrestling move from the Lynchburg (white) player.
     
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  2. gaolin

    gaolin Member+

    Apr 21, 2019
    We've got 11 games tonight in the US Open Cup. Let me know if getting highlights was something you'd like more of from an education perspective. It's very easy for me to do but can be time consuming.
     
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  3. MetroFever

    MetroFever Member+

    Jun 3, 2001
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    I can't speak for others, but I find that your posts with the videos are definitely educational and thought provoking. You should work for USSF.
     
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  4. El Rayo Californiano

    Feb 3, 2014
    As your time allows. I really appreciate them.
     
  5. soccerref69420

    soccerref69420 Member+

    President of the Antonio Miguel Mateu Lahoz fan cub
    Mar 14, 2020
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea DPR
    I think we all agree that your work is really appreciated. For me in particular, it is discouraging that referee analysis content from levels below the professional leagues is so sparse. Obviously I understand why. But seeing how regional level referees handle games and decisions at semi-pro levels where 99% of us will top out as referees is honestly a lot more helpful and beneficial to me than watching how Champions League or even MLS refs are handling things, given how frequently people say that trying to carry over pro level referees to our level is not a good idea.

    I'm just happy that there's a Swedish ref who does adult semi-pro games that are recorded and so he has individual clips of him giving reckless, SPA, DOGSO, etc. on his YT channel. Your stuff is similar.
     
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  6. gaolin

    gaolin Member+

    Apr 21, 2019
    Thanks -- will keep going. Fortunately the 2nd round we have more experienced referees doing games and the gulf of talent between the teams has provided an easier time on the field...

    However -- there were still some reds and a few fights which will be here:

    Union Omaha (USL1) – Des Moines Menace (USL2)
    1. 23' Fight https://streamja.com/G2qwe
    2. 89' Yellow card https://streamja.com/7Kjp1
    San Antonio FC (USLC) – D’Feeters Kickers SC (Local)
    1. 37' Fight https://streamja.com/Xq2kN
    2. 81' Red card https://streamja.com/9E4dR
    New Mexico United (USLC) – Las Vegas Legends FC (NPSL)
    1. 82' 2nd Yellow https://streamja.com/w2rEL
    Central Valley Fuego FC (USL1) – El Paso Locomotive (USLC)
    1. 37' Yellow & Scuffle https://streamja.com/QOJWV
    2. 38' Yellow & More scuffling https://streamja.com/vqrdk
    3. 58' Red card https://streamja.com/zpzOR
    4. 64' Fight https://streamja.com/BO5qN
    You might notice, in the San Antonio game, that referee former USL Referee of the Year Elton Garcia has gone from PRO2 category back down to National Referee category. Just something I noticed.

    More back at it tonight!
     
  7. soccerref69420

    soccerref69420 Member+

    President of the Antonio Miguel Mateu Lahoz fan cub
    Mar 14, 2020
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea DPR
  8. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    And this is a national cup competition. Technically they have more reason to behave than their usual league.
     
  9. incognitoind

    incognitoind Member

    Apr 8, 2015
    Are you basing this on the badge he wore? As far as I know, Elton is still very much a part of pro2. This is a us soccer competition and therefore the badge worn would be us soccer. This is true even for the likely MLS crew that will work the final.
     
  10. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member+

    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    Des Moines, IA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Absolutely true. Here is the photo of the crew for the last final in 2019. All are wearing USSF badges. Had someone been a FIFA, they would have worn the white FIFA badge.

    upload_2022-4-6_21-7-3.jpeg
     
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  11. El Rayo Californiano

    Feb 3, 2014
    FC Motown, which is still not from Detroit, rolls on tonight with a 1-0 win over Syracuse Pulse.
     
  12. gaolin

    gaolin Member+

    Apr 21, 2019
    There goes my knowledge! I'm embarrassed. Thank you @MassachusettsRef and @incognitoind. Nope, not bashing. I would never. Just an ignorant observation it seems.
     
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  13. gaolin

    gaolin Member+

    Apr 21, 2019
    ALBION San Deigo v San Diego Loyal
    Colorado Springs vs Northern Colorado
    Louisville City vs Chattanooga Red Wolves
    Miami FC vs Miami United
    Phoenix Rising vs Valley United
    Western Mass Pioneers vs Flower City Union
     
  14. soccerref69420

    soccerref69420 Member+

    President of the Antonio Miguel Mateu Lahoz fan cub
    Mar 14, 2020
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea DPR
    Thanks for the update. A few things from me that I'm sure are wrong and would appreciate the input of others


    1.
    This is a reckless slide that would have taken out the white player if he didn't jump high out of the way, and he lands awkwardly as well. I see no issue with receiving a caution for this despite no contact.

    2.
    upload_2022-4-7_18-18-42.png

    Guy is offside by a yard, pretty bad miss for a 115' goal to take the lead.

    3.
    Referee is looking right at this 5 yards away. How do you not give SFP red.

    Most of all, what your clips have showed me outside of the teaching is that I don't understand why referees take these games. Endless violent conduct and scuffles. What the heck is this crap?
     
  15. Law5

    Law5 Member+

    Mar 24, 2005
    Beaverton OR
    Soccerref69420 asks: "Most of all, what your clips have showed me outside of the teaching is that I don't understand why referees take these games. Endless violent conduct and scuffles. What the heck is this crap?"

    Sure, it's crap behavior. 20-something guys with teenage levels of hormones. 'They can't intimidate us! We're the biggest d***s on the block!!!' That kind of stuff.

    Why do referees do those games? For the challenge of it. These games aren't so much about remembering the nuances of SPA v. SFP in the heat of the moment as they are about managing people, people with tons of adrenalin pumping, who get tired about the 67th minute and run low on adrenalin, so they try to make up for it with 'a bit of the verbal' so their mark might get tossed out for responding. Do you have command presence? "I am Sir Referee, and you can call me by my first name!" These games will weed out pretty quickly the referees who are afraid to give a card in the 2nd minute of the game, when the players are still trying to figure out what you're going to allow and what you will not allow.

    And, given the nature of Open Cup, most of these teams have never played each other before and so there is a huge range of skills and team discipline, when you look at everything from college age amateurs to MLS. That easily produces disagreements between the teams about how physical the game should be played and there may also be a disagreement by the referee about how physical play should be.
     
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  16. Pierre Head

    Pierre Head Member+

    Dec 24, 2005
    I don't know how many readers of these boards will ever be on one of these USOC matches, but here goes.
    For all these reasons, and more, referees who do these games have to be prepared in advance.
    There is no point in going into them thinking that it will be a normal typical match. Control should be established early and firmly. There should be essentially no advantage (unless a clear OGSO) in the first 20 minutes. Call all the fouls to establish control. Also accept no dissent. Card the first player who openly dissents any decision, especially early on. Any nasty tackles should result in a YC, again, especially early on. No tolerance, no initial warning. The players will be testing you and their opponents.

    If the game settles down, and the players have got the message, these draconian approaches can be relaxed, but if necessary, should be reimposed particularly as is pointed out by Law5, they are getting testy and tired in the last quarter of the match.

    These games are somewhat similar to USASA Regionals and National, perhaps with a bit more at stake, with the potential to advance to face a "pro" team.

    I know some people will oppose this point of view, but as can be seen in these videos, you do so at your peril. They are not for the faint hearted but if done well can advance a referee's career. Alternatively they can be career toilets!

    PH

    (PS: been there, done that, got several T-shirts, including semifinals and Finals).
     
  17. soccerref69420

    soccerref69420 Member+

    President of the Antonio Miguel Mateu Lahoz fan cub
    Mar 14, 2020
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea DPR
    I appreciate both your guys detailed responses. I definitely understand the "taking on a challenge" aspect of it. And you guys talk about clamping down on fouls and dissent early, I completely understand.. But I just see these clips and just the absolute CRAP that is going on. It isn't even soccer. Stomping on someone's back isn't soccer. Fouling someone, then standing in front of the ball and repeatedly pushing the player taking it isn't soccer. Kicking wildly in the center circle so that your studs hit a guy in the back of the head isn't soccer. Group scuffles after every foul isn't soccer. I don't even see how these types of situations are indicative of all about these refs' skill levels because it doesn't seem like the refs "let" it get to this point, but these are just momentary issues. And maybe I'm just only seeing the absolute worst of the worst, and the majority of games aren't like this.

    But I guess, overall, I do get it. That this is more a test of player management than just regular foul recognition. I guess I'm just not used to seeing this level of adult soccer that is intermediate between adults kicking the ball around on a Sunday and near-MLS level stuff and so I'm not used to the garbage they pull.

    This would be great if all referees did this, but at this level, would a referee like this not be viewed negatively for being so draconian? Like really, not even giving advantage?

    Great title for my autobiography if I wrote one.
     
  18. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think I'm missing something. We're looking at a few red cards and some mass-cons in a sample of matches from a knockout competition and we're saying it's "not soccer?" What is it then?

    We also shouldn't misrepresent things. "Endless VC?" There were 32 matches this round. And though there were possibly more we don't know about, we've seen 3 VC red cards identified above. That's not "endless." That's not even "a lot."

    Anyway, I don't see anything in the clips above that you might not also see in a domestic professional match. And certainly nothing worse than you might see in some CONCACAF competitions or professional matches in other CONCACAF nations. The average local competitive amateur league is going to throw much worse at you--particularly in some lopsided encounters or particularly heated rivalries.

    My larger point would be to flip one of the questions above around and why someone would want to referee if managing a match wasn't a challenge and didn't throw difficult and weird circumstances at you. Managing personalities and keeping control of 22+ different individuals is, to me, one of the main reasons why we like doing what we do. If every match was an 8-foul walk in the park with the occasional controversial handball penalty decision... I, for one, would not enjoy it the way I do!

    If you want to get really philosophical, sports are an outlet where members of a civilized society channel some of their more uncivilized natural impulses in a controlled environment. There's a historical through line from tribal warfare to organized sports. The idea that a soccer match--or any physical team competition--should be staid and easy to control sort of defies one of the main points of it. And that's why we have referees or other officials in the first place.
     
  19. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think the question is whether or not the defender has saved or deflected the ball versus played the ball. I agree that I think this should be offside. But one has to hope the AR believed it was a reset rather than just a missed OSP. One of those mistakes of judgment is defensible; the other not so much.

    One thing I picked up from watching this clip is that the fouling player, who was the captain, immediately pointed downfield to a foul or incident that must have happened prior to this where, one would surmise, he or his team didn't get a call they wanted.

    None of that is to say this isn't a red card in a vacuum. I think there are more arguments for a red than a yellow if you simply just watch the clip. But it is a reminder that these clips are, in fact, very much in vacuums. We have to remember that overall match context and game management is factoring in to referees' decisions here. If, hypothetically, there had been a really bad tackle or a borderline DOGSO 5 minutes before where the referee only went yellow against this guy's team... is that enough to tilt the balance to yellow here? Maybe not. But it is worth considering what other inputs are going into a referee's brain as they make these decisions.
     
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  20. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Thanks for typing out what I was thinking with this thread. I appreciate gaolin posting these clips of games that people on this forum might actually have a chance of working. But once you have men's league games of any level above low level rec, you will have KMIs that you need to deal with. If you are a good enough referee to set a bar where a foul which might technically be SFP when you get to look at it in slow motion in a UEFA RAP set can be sold as a yellow and the players respect that decision, then you've proven yourself to be worthy of officiating that level of game.
     
  21. Pierre Head

    Pierre Head Member+

    Dec 24, 2005
    By whom? The main point is to control the match. Do that in these matches and only an idiot would view it negatively. Call it tight and in the end the players appreciate it.

    Advantage is hugely overrated. Players below pro level generally lack the skills and tactics to be able to really benefit, especially in the 3/4 of the pitch from their own goal line. It is much better to give them the free kick, unless there is a pretty much 100% OGSO as I mentioned previously. Keep advantage to an absolute minimum.
    More games at this level go into the crapper because of uncalled fouls than anything else.

    One of best referee instructors in the US, now sadly no longer with us, had a name for what I am advocating: "Beneficial Heresies."

    PH
     
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  22. Mi3ke

    Mi3ke Member

    Oct 18, 2011
    New Mexico
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The 2nd match should be a fun one to R. Playing FOUR days apart:
    "NM United’s next scheduled USL Championship match is April 16 at Phoenix and its third-round U.S. Open Cup opponent will also be Rising FC. That contest will be April 20 at 7:30 p.m., also at Wild Horse Pass in Chandler, Arizona."
     
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  23. ptref

    ptref Member

    Manchester United
    United States
    Aug 5, 2015
    Bowling Green, KY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I haven’t watched all of this clips yet, but most of the ones that I have watched so far don’t seem that bad. The ones labeled “fight” were not what I expected. My expectation of a “fight” involves people throwing punches. A little pushing and shoving is no big deal. I think that sometimes referees try to hard to make people happy. Forget that, just call the fouls. Players might get upset sometimes, but in the end they want to know that they are being protected. Keep it simple, get the obvious ones, and most of the time you will be ok.
     
  24. gaolin

    gaolin Member+

    Apr 21, 2019
    Chattanooga (NISA) vs Memphis 901 (USLC)
    Hartford Athletic (USLC) vs Oyster Bay United FC (UPSL)
    • 59' Penalty https://streamja.com/NVbGa
    • 82' Yellow card https://streamja.com/3zK4E
      • CONTEXT: #4 for Hartfort committed both fouls in the two clips above which is why the lamentations for yellow were so vivid in the 82' clip. He was already on a yellow before he committed the penalty foul.
    Charleston Battery (USLC) vs Tormenta (USL1)
     
  25. frankieboylampard

    Mar 7, 2016
    USA
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Spain
    Bob Evans?
     

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