Throw-ins and loss of possession

Discussion in 'Referee' started by Pittsburgh Ref, Mar 13, 2022.

  1. Pittsburgh Ref

    Pittsburgh Ref Member+

    Oct 7, 2014
    da 'Burgh
    Mid-field throw-in, fans aggrieved since we got it "wrong," definitely not a KMI (!).

    Had the thought, as we all have, "even if your team got the throw you'd lose it in three touches anyway."

    Has anybody researched or reasoned or fabricated any stats in this regard? Sure, a throw deep in attacking half is dangerous, but there are acres of field where it just doesn't matter.
     
  2. SA14mars

    SA14mars Member+

    Jan 3, 2005
    Dallas
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Is this USSF or NFHS? Asking since the rules are different. Can you also provide a little more context about what happened?
     
  3. AlextheRef

    AlextheRef Member

    Jun 29, 2009
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    AFAIK, there's nothing conclusive at the youth level. Throw-ins have become a focus for professional level statistical analysis. Liverpool under Klopp specifically brought in a throw in coach to improve that aspect of the team.

    Couple of studies:
    https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/1747954121991447

    https://www.americansocceranalysis.com/home/2018/11/27/game-of-throw-ins
     
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  4. Pittsburgh Ref

    Pittsburgh Ref Member+

    Oct 7, 2014
    da 'Burgh
    Just the generic case where the "wrong" team gets a throw, say in the middle third of the field, and fans are convinced we've given the game to the other team.

    Basically trying to get at the statistical likelihood that such a (non-)throw has bupkes to do with anything other than re-initiating the chaotic actions that will give the ball to teams in turn over the course of the game.
     
  5. SA14mars

    SA14mars Member+

    Jan 3, 2005
    Dallas
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Thanks - I totally though you were talking about when there is a foul throw. Yes, most professional leagues including MLS keep some sort of statistic on this, but I can't recall it ever being made public.
     
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  6. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    I think your intuition is right. There is really no advantage to who is taking a throw in, probably anywhere on the field. It is, most likely, designed that way as it is just a neutral way of getting the ball back in play. If there was supposed to be an advantage to it, beyond being able to throw it to a team mate within a short distance, they would let you throw one handed.
     
  7. RefModeExplode

    Feb 14, 2022
    I have to disagree. Throw-ins are indeed an advantage to the thrower, especially in the attacking end (and for very good throws, they come off just like a corner kick). Seen goals scored from them many times.

    Conversely, in the defending end, sometimes as a coach you actually don't want the throw, because if your defense is very poor, you can get "trapped" in the corner and not be able to get out.

    Even at mid field throws-- maintaining possession matters. I am not saying all teams are good at it, I am saying there is indeed an advantage and disadvantage, depending on the scenario, skill, etc.

    It is not neutral. So it matters, one way or the other.

    Stats aside, we need to take it more seriously. The "aww, it doesn't really matter, look at the stats" stuff really is not cool. That attitude makes we officials look much too cavalier.

    I do understand that parents get triggered about throw-in's; I generally hate them just as much as they do!
     
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  8. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    You always make the best call you can. But there is a reason VAR doesn't check to see if the throw in was awarded properly. It is not a high impact call. That is all.

    I don't know if VAR would reverse a goal scored as a result of an illegal throw in that wasn't called.

    The biggest throw in controversy at the moment is TSS constantly telling everyone that the hands have to be on the sides of the ball and applying equal pressure. They mention this all the time, especially when discussing Weston McKennie.
     
  9. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    Once upon a time, there was a certain degree of truth in that, as the language of Law referred to delivering the ball with both hands. Excessive sideways spin was interpreted as evidence that the throw was actually being done by one hand with the other just along for the ride. But that is ancient history.
     
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  10. jayhonk

    jayhonk Member+

    Oct 9, 2007
  11. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I had a guy call a couple of very weak foul throws in a ecnl game this weekend. At halftime I told him that it was 45° with a 20 mph wind and it was misting. Unless they are the ugliest foul hrows in the world please don't call them.
     
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  12. Rufusabc

    Rufusabc Member+

    May 27, 2004
    wow, you must be watching matches that I never see. I watched my club (Everton) this weekend barely get the ball in.
     
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  13. refinDC

    refinDC Member

    Aug 7, 2012
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    VAR would not. VAR can't correct restart issues.
     
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  14. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    They can not. There was a blatant foul throw (foot onto the field) in the Bundesliga around 2018 or 2019 that led to a goal and it was not something VAR could fix.
     
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  15. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    Total Soccer Show
     
  16. soccerref69420

    soccerref69420 Member+

    President of the Antonio Miguel Mateu Lahoz fan cub
    Mar 14, 2020
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea DPR
    For me, any time a throw in is taken in the attacking third I always want it from the correct spot (whether they try from too far forward or also behind the spot). Throws in the defensive penalty area of the field I also want from the correct spot because a coffin corner throw is a disadvantage and getting too far out of it is unfair. Anywhere else I don't care about a few yards here and there.

    As for the loss of possession, on occasion I will retort that to the complainer if it does in fact happen. I'll also do the same if an offside/defensive third FK is taken a few yards too far forward, player shouts at me, I literally say "It's the defensive third, what is two yards going to do, let's get the game moving" and I frequently get "you're right" in response.
     
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  17. ChicagoFutbol

    ChicagoFutbol Member

    Liverpool
    United States
    Feb 26, 2020
    American youth refs waste too much time on restarts regarding the exact spot of throw ins. Watch the Big Leagues and you will see very little attention to the spot within 15-20 meters, yes some corner exceptions. In addition, having both feet firmly on the ground is also rarely enforced professionally as well as equal pressure rule. This fascination with text book throw ins is uniquely American. We love our hand sports. A favorite pet peeve was the kick-off restart before the new rule when the half line wasn’t completely broken at first touch. IMO, So much more pertinent items to focus on in games fellow American refs!
     
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  18. fairplayforlife

    fairplayforlife Member+

    Mar 23, 2011
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Equal pressure rule?

    And isn’t it the European leagues that have the old myth that “spiking” the ball is illegal?
     
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  19. RefModeExplode

    Feb 14, 2022
    Say again? I'm not familiar with that phrase
     
  20. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It's up there with the "put a name on it" law in England.
     
  21. Law5

    Law5 Member+

    Mar 24, 2005
    Beaverton OR
    There used to be constant complaints that the thrower had to put equal pressure on the ball with both hands. Otherwise, gasp, it might spin! And the thrown ball spinning was considered clear evidence that the throw in had not been taken properly. Unfortunately, there were too many referees who indulged parent spectators by calling them as foul throws. At least around here, that dropped off about the turn of the century.
     
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  22. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    As I noted above, once upon a time, excessive spin was considered evidence the player was only actually throwing with one hand , which was not permissible. But that hasn't been an interpretation for a very long time. (Though I watched a ref pull it out in a U10 game not too long ago, resulting in befuddled players and more "foul throws" than good throws. . . what happens when "I played back in the day and know everything" displaces actual learning.)

    Spiking isn't just an old myth, but was taught as improper, and was even in the USSF ATR. The concept on a spike is the ball isn't being thrown from over the head, as the ball necessarily is being held until in front of the head and thrown down. But I wouldn't call it now as long as the motion begins from behind the head.
     
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  23. mathguy ref

    mathguy ref Member+

    Nov 15, 2016
    TX
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Our HS chapter has a ref who is good for at least 1 “illegal spike throw” a match.
     
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  24. soccerref69420

    soccerref69420 Member+

    President of the Antonio Miguel Mateu Lahoz fan cub
    Mar 14, 2020
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea DPR
    I don't even think it's just throw-ins. I feel we are too worried about trifling restarts period, and other trifling infractions. Some of the classics for me

    - Wanting exact throw-in location from any throw that isn't in the attacking third or on their coffin corner defensive corner flag

    - Caring way too much about throw in mechanics. As long as the foot is relatively close to the ground and the throw in isn't from their forehead, with one hand like a QB, or pushed from their shoulder, who cares

    - A goal kick that is still moving a bit and is kicked to their own defender inside the PA to play out and my AR starts wiggling their flag like the movement had any advantage

    - AR making them take an offside IFK in their defensive third from EXACTLY in line with him, like a few yards either way makes a difference

    - A keeper distributing the ball via throw or punt and comes half a yard outside their box and AR starts wiggling their flag... come on
     
  25. AlextheRef

    AlextheRef Member

    Jun 29, 2009
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I agree that common sense should be used to manage technical compliance with the LOTG, but be careful. I have unfortunately had to deal with some of the following scenarios in my career:

    Scenario 1: If you allow the outside backs to slowly creep up the pitch 10 yards for throw ins throughout the first half, what do you do when: (a) the ball goes out at midfield on a counter, (b) a ball boy gets the ball to a running attacker quickly (who has moved 8 yards upfield based on his momentum), and (c) that attacker throws the ball in quickly (while 8 yards ahead) before the defense can reset. You're kind of screwed if the ball goes in the net within the next 10 seconds, aren't you?

    Scenario 2: Law 16 states "the ball must be stationary," on goal kicks. Let's assume its a 1-0 game in the 85th minute and the goalkeeper gets another ball quickly for a goal kick and kicks the ball to an outside back while its rolling. If that team goes down the pitch to equalize within 15-20 seconds, what do you say to the team that just blew the lead? What do you say when asked about your decision after the match?

    Scenario 3: Law 11 states that an indirect free kick should be taken from where the offense occurred. Be very careful where you draw the line when the goalkeeper or defender can serve the restart into the opposing team's penalty area. If you let them have 5 yards at midfield, and a header goal is scored directly off the restart, how are you going to manage the rest of the game?
     

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