Why Pro Modern Football - Modernist - Arguments Almost Always Fail.

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by leadleader, Jun 18, 2021.

?

How do you feel - FEEL - about Modern Football??

  1. I absolutely hate - HATE - Modern Football. Hate it.

    2 vote(s)
    15.4%
  2. It is watchable, but not at all - NOT AT ALL - my favorite era of football.

    5 vote(s)
    38.5%
  3. It is more or less as entertaining as any other previous era of football.

    2 vote(s)
    15.4%
  4. It is my favorite era of football.

    3 vote(s)
    23.1%
  5. I much prefer football of the 2000s.

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  6. I much prefer football of the 1990s.

    1 vote(s)
    7.7%
  7. I much prefer football of the 1980s.

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    I hope Denmark will do the job against the Brexit clowns and their disgusting haughty media (in particular, foremost, The Guardian has been hostile and condescending), and I am luckily not alone in the sentiment. It is very bitter how the same English VAR seized their chance to throw us (free path for their FA, their employers, to the final) out while also disabling our best player months before. "They have not a single world class player left", said Neville with a brief smile.
     
  2. JoCryuff98

    JoCryuff98 Member+

    Barcelona
    Netherlands
    Jan 3, 2018
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    #52 JoCryuff98, Jun 30, 2021
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2021
    Yeah, I hope England doesn’t win the whole thing. I also remember Van Dijk being criticised more often than Robertson, Trent or Gomez, when he made some errors. Remember that match against Aston Villa where they conceded 7 goals? VvD was blamed for it, but Gomez and Trent were absolutely pathetic defensively. Some Liverpool fans were pretty arrogant that their defense would be fine without him.
     
  3. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Arsenal
    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Is that based on social media? I don't follow the Facebook and Twitter of this world too closely.

    I would say though that in social media like Reddit, online forums, and Discord, VVD is held in such high regard by Liverpool fans that I've never seen him criticized more than Robertson, Trent, or Gomez, even after the 7 goals bonanza.

    If anything, his injury has made them miss him even more. I've never seen them feel "safe" about losing VVD. If anything, it's been the opposite!
     
  4. JoCryuff98

    JoCryuff98 Member+

    Barcelona
    Netherlands
    Jan 3, 2018
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Reddit? The football discussion over there is pathetic and similar to Facebook or Twitter. Yes, I’m referring to the morons from such social media sites. Also, I did say “some Liverpool fans”, not all.
     
  5. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    @leadleader (I take it here, as euro 2020 thread has already too many sideways posts, and too few about the actual players and football).

    On social media I saw this article shared. I can't read Swedish (Danish is actually doable, somehow) but google translate gives this

    "Dirty, political and fake world"
    Jonas Eriksson rages against Uefa

    Jonas Eriksson, 47, is pissed.

    The former top referee, who is now an expert at SVT, believes that the European Championships' best judge has been sent home on incorrect grounds.

    "The decision was made by UEFA's top management and has nothing to do with performance ," he wrote in a post on Instagram.

    Jonas Eriksson has previously told about the disappointment he felt when he was poked from refereeing in the World Cup 2018. In his summer talk, Sweden's most deserving football referee was that it is in fact politics that decides which referees are allowed to referee which matches.

    That culture still exists today and is clearly visible in the European Championships, Eriksson believes.

    "Dark mourning"
    In a post on Instagram, he attacks Uefa.

    "People often ask: how do you get selected for the last matches? Are they achievements? How do you rank referees? Is it the one who makes the fewest mistakes? Who really makes the assessment?

    The truth is that it is a dark mourning.

    A dirty, political and false world where friendship, corruption, loyalty and nationality play a role. Football that talks about fair play and respect, where the rulebook is the same for everyone, where the four best teams that have won the most matches will play the semi-finals in London tonight and tomorrow - but when it comes to the refereeing, it happens in closed rooms, with political agendas and with everything but football's best in mind.

    Those who are selected, and he will be selected for the final, are NOT automatically the tournament's three best referees. It is not always those who have performed best, received the highest rating or delivered at the top who gain the trust " , writes Eriksson.

    "Best judge sent home"
    The semi-finals of the European Championships will be judged by Felix Brych (Germany) and Danny Makkelie (Netherlands). For SVT says Jonas Eriksson that he considers Cuneyt Cakir (Turkey) has been the European Championship's best referees. Cakir, who has now been told that he has finished judging in the European Championships and has been sent home.


    "This time, the tournament's best referee, without a single clear mistake, has already been sent home. The decision was made by UEFA's top management and has nothing to do with performances during the European Championships.

    Other judges, who without knowing it themselves, have the right contacts, best political backing or come from important countries judge further ahead.

    Regardless, congratulations to the referees who will judge! No shadow should fall over them.

    What everyone should know, however, is that it is a rotten world with a far from good culture and that I, with perspective, can say that I am damn happy that I stopped judging three years ago " , writes Eriksson.

    https://www.aftonbladet.se/sportbladet/fotboll/a/vAEvGB/skitig-politisk-och-falsk-varld



    Message from a proper country with actual press freedom, something you might call integrity standards, and from an independent multimillionaire. Like I said, it is "not impossible" to let Swedish, Swiss, Canadians (plausibly Americans) officiate their own country.

    Someone good enough to officiate finals (or assigned as reserve)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonas_Eriksson_(referee)

    More generally, in these type of countries (as well as Netherlands), it is common referees explain themselves on camera. If they do this in international settings, they get punished (click link). Press articles here mention our lot might not have been the best referees this tournament.

    This is not to deny e.g. Spain, Italy (and even England) have some terrific players (I enjoyed yesterday's game), but it's time to come out of Teletubbie land. Indeed, Spain or Italy winning yesterday was a random coin toss and which (tactical) fouls got yellows had a random element.

    Unfortunately, there are numerous insidious and dishonest fans (example) pretending it is all conspiracy theory, like to translate rigging into fixing (or an ironed out plot); and when that fails, it can't be denied, the next line is "the FBI is worse than FIFA".

    Maybe we should be happy though that the likes of Peco Bauwens, Bilardo, the Hoeness circle (use google translate), Bernabeu get themselves concerned with football, as a replacement for wars, than doing the stuff these type of places gravitated towards not too long ago. Sadly, sometimes - in particular the Middle East and South America - they find time for both.
     
    leadleader repped this.
  6. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord



    Not calling this delivered Desmond Makkelie another knock-out and England match. No Frisk (Sweden), Ovrebo (Norway) or Urs Meier (Switzerland) treatment for him. Or premature sending home. Like I said before, consider the selective psychology of this.

    It's England/Premier League's turn at the Concert of Europe roundtable. Break the drought. Money translates into influence.

    Fans with a vested interest deny, until it is no longer possible; then we'll see the other fallacies played out ("the investigators are worse than the criminals!").
     
    leadleader repped this.
  7. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Another illustrative classic of this genre, by the same "FBI is worse than FIFA" as next line of defense pseudo professor (notice the 'likes').


    [​IMG]

    https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/team-news-discussion-thread-vol-xiii.1998695/page-52#post-29739421

    You won't see me back here for the time being in the next couple of months (maybe longer).

    If you think I don't uphold this pledge you're mistaken. Civil war is coming and the test for civic duty awaits (it all happened after I wrote yesterday my concerns about the populist & islamofascist forces threatening the liberal-democratic center at places like here, Finland, Austria etc.).

    Greetings from somewhere near the Gaulish village.
     
  8. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    I will throw one final bone as a gift.

    "On the battle for third places: A rare gentlemen's agreement between Ireland and the Netherlands in the final group match of the Mondiale-90 disadvantaged and knocked Austria and Scotland out of the tournament.

    I assume that this episode from the national history will be discussed at the talkshow table.

    Beenhakker let Van Loen start to warm up, after which Van Basten said to the sidelines: 'Hey coach, we already have a deal.' It is picked up by a close field microphone. It's part of the 90% in the locker of Don Leo [about WC 90."
     
  9. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    To set this straight: this was not a "clear and obvious error".

    [​IMG]

    "No clear and obvious error", no retrospective punishment either. No deterrent.



    After a long time delay, some persuasion and showing poor, distant angles and video speed: "Yellow card is a clear and obvious error". You can't unknow the known.

    Now with the Sterling penalty they are doing what they accuse others of and hide "behind the process rather than decision".

    Time to come out of Teletubbie land.
     
  10. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord



    This was almost certainly an actual laser beam. It needs to be strong to reach him. Why does that get into the stadium, with even more home advantage than normal.

    In a police state like England, with all the Premier League experience, all the cameras, "best stadium in the world", it is very well possible to detect and confiscate these lasers. They do successfully at premier league matches. No question.

    Disgusting.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/euro-20...-had-laser-pen-shone-face-harry-kane-stepped/
     
  11. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    Quite rightly UEFA have started an investigation into the matter (and some others like the booing of the national anthems which is always unpleasant).

    Not sure England can be branded much of a police state though.
     
  12. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #62 PuckVanHeel, Jul 8, 2021
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2021
    What will be the outcome? A fine with five zeroes? That's nothing. Maybe this bothered Schmeichel the entire game.

    Fits in what I observed earlier: a wholesome integral and holistic review where officiating isn't excluded and every angle is up there for exploitation. There are hosts and there are 'hosts' - allowed by higher up to be 'hosts'.

    It's also not like I've felt the same about 'England is rigging' at all the previous tournaments (from the very start). Then there is the danger of 'the clock is always correct twice a day'.


    This is what I don't care about much. It's not the high ground to take (cf. Oranje fans in Austria or for Czech Republic players) but it leaves me cold. But if we'd boo God save the Queen the hostile English press sections (The Guardian) will put the machine on again.

    However, it isn't the first incidence of booing by England fans. UEFA could and should have chosen to fine this as well, and have penalized first offenders previously (or issued a warning).

    For repeated offenders you can increase the stakes and penalties, which is maybe precisely why the UEFA didn't act before. Now it is too late.


    Many others are since 9/11 under pressure too, this place not excluded. It's an exaggeration and only sideways related to the subject, but UK is a backsliding democracy, has the highest prison rates of Western Europe (albeit far behind USA and behind Eastern Europe), has one of the strictest defamation and libel laws in the world (useful for "libel tourism"), still knows blasphemy laws, is - to play the devil's advocate - around 40 in the world in press freedom, and around 40 for personal liberties as well.

    In the context of this it is largely irrelevant but touched on this before in the sense of how the beans stay inside (within a fairly militaristic and hierarchic country), and it connects to independent positions for branches within the same organization like the FA.

    That's again not to deny England has several good players, as can be expected from a country much larger than Denmark (prone to a small bench and weak spots; the travelling logistics gave them problems) or Netherlands for that matter. England has a dominant record against the former, less so the latter. Finally, both BEL and NED weren't very good, as good as it could be (despite the ratings), and at previous moments when more decisions went the unfortunate way (2-4 away vs Germany in the qualifiers, with a week preparation time; advantage in head-to-head) more resilience and strength was shown.
     
  13. SF19

    SF19 Member+

    Jun 8, 2013
    I don't recall those criticisms. Van Dijk is thought of very highly at Liverpool and when he was injured by Pickford the next game, everyone pretty much understood the club could be in a spot of trouble because Lovren was sold in the summer and so Liverpool lacked depth. Liverpool almost missed the Champions League due to his absence and if van Dijk had remained fit, I think Holland would have at least reached the semi-finals of these Euros.

    As for the big loss to Villa. Liverpool played too high and the midfield didn't press, so Aston Villa found time on the ball and lots of space to exploit behind Liverpool's defense. Liverpool were chasing the game, so they continued to leave space at the back. Aston Villa weren't afraid of Liverpool and kept going for more.

    The blame for that loss falls squarely on Klopp. I don't think for a moment he ever believed Villa would score 7 times, so he kept trying to push Liverpool forward even when clearly it was leaving them too vulnerable at the back. His midfield came into the game looking burnout. Klopp likes to blame the congested football calendar, but it's also his approach and methods. His players have to run a lot and very hard to maintain such high standards. They are bound to have games where they struggle, where the standards would drop, and that was the case here.
     
  14. SF19

    SF19 Member+

    Jun 8, 2013
    @PuckVanHeel,

    The UK's National Health Service is far more intrusive in terms of gathering sensitive private information about people than those cameras throughout the London area you keep complaining about. Should we disband the NHS to liberate England from her tyranny?

    With the way things are going in England, they will sooner witness the end of the monarchy and end up with an elected head of state than what you imagine things to become.
     
  15. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Because of the good-spirited nature of the post I owe you a brief reply.


    I can't remember me saying something about the many cameras in London. Certainly not recently.

    Above comment refers to the many cameras in and around Wembley (next to other things like detection gates), which is of course very relevant for the laser beam episode.

    What the NHS does or doesn't is in my eyes not relevant for how internal decisions remain internal, or how the beans stay inside, how people fall into line.

    As for the general privacy and surveillance, when I care to type 'privacy countries' in the search bar, this is the first return:
    https://bestvpn.org/countries-ranked-by-privacy/


    Better to leave that to the voters or experts who say there isn't a golden formula.

    https://www.vox.com/podcasts/2020/6...lthcare-germany-uk-france-the-ezra-klein-show

    I'm not someone who wants to liberate and invade countries, starting another Glorious Revolution.

    To me that's all besides the point about hierarchy and psychology.

    Maybe my mentioned pre-tournament skepticism - later lowered - about Italy should be re-established, and given that more of a hammering relative to England. Mea culpa.

    See the posts on this page (and there is really, as mentioned, an uncomfortable correlation throughout history):
    https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/euro-2021-squad.2115079/page-51#post-39727489

    Nevertheless, serial tactical fouler Busquets was taking some liberties and he could have seen a yellow way earlier than the 51th minute (the TVs only showed a very brief replay but the ankle stamp was certainly there). That's still something where I think 'nahhhh'.

    More should have been said about that match, relative to the penalty decision in the other.

     
    SF19 repped this.
  16. SF19

    SF19 Member+

    Jun 8, 2013
    PuckVanHeel repped this.
  17. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Regardless, this exchange connects to the main point of the thread:



    Random element for sure - and one can be played or manipulated - with devastating consequences for either the attacking or defending party.

    One that's also - and this is another thing many don't seem to grasp - more like a 'small' thing adding up over 90 minutes, rather than one big call everyone talks about.

    Has real consequences and, while I don't say that's the case here, the proven corrupted and bribed referees of the past play with that as well (and then make a token call for the other side to mask it all). AS Roma vs Dundee in 1984; that went beyond psychology, gaming with assignments etc.
     
  18. SF19

    SF19 Member+

    Jun 8, 2013
    Busquets was always a cynical player. Talented, but never far away from the more underhanded tactics of the game either.

    There's always going to be outside factors that affect the quality of the refereeing, but there needs to be a distinction with what can be tolerated.

    Much of these concerns about Euro 2020 are not new to football. In fact, there is a fairly consistent phenomenon at work here that is no secret to anyone.

    The way I see, if the referee is biased or makes a big mistake, then the offended team has to be that much better on the day. That's the luck of the draw and this time England got lucky over Denmark.
     
    PuckVanHeel repped this.
  19. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Yeah I agree with pretty much all of this.

    Only thing is the draw was for a part luck (Spain in the other half etc.) and for a part plotted by playing six games in the same stadium. Other hosts, official hosts, like France have spread it around, or were required to do so. Only England in 1966 and 2021 have played six games in the same stadium, no one else.

    Then on their base camp in George's Park they have a replica pitch of Wembley to practice and the opponent has not. An opponent that has to travel to gruelling Baku, shabby Budapest and what more (previously told). There are hosts and there are hosts. Unofficial hosts who are double hosts in a Pan European tournament.



    I see Gazzetta dello Sport has insinuated more than once a deal between Boris Johnson and UEFA (rewards for blocking Super League). Their barrier for saying these things is higher than say Tuttosport. Let's see whether the evidence rolls in.

    For now I'd say they might take a look to their own referee chief, acting like Villar as a semi-dictator within his fiefdom (for as long he stays on post and isn't ousted).

    Greetings. :)
     
    SF19 repped this.
  20. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    @leadleader (and others)

    They really need to reconsider the five/six substitutions rule.

    Not only favors this the big teams enormously, it also increases all the tactical fouling and everything else you so rightly criticize (with a random and very arbitrary element on top). The defensive and central midfielders are free to have a go, because you can sub them out for fresher legs anyway.

    Informed fans have figured that out now.
     
    leadleader, SF19 and PDG1978 repped this.
  21. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Arsenal
    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Hmm...I thought this was a temporary thing. Are they actually making the 5 sub rule permanent? :eek:
     
  22. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Baffling story and suggestion by Blatter his former right-hand man, the press officer, in this article within a prominent Swiss newspaper:
    https://blog.tagesanzeiger.ch/nachs...855/blatter-brachte-meier-und-rettete-die-wm/

    How Blatter saved the 2002 World Cup
    [...]
    This situation caused some concern for Sepp Blatter, who was meanwhile President of Fifa. A finalist or even world champion South Korea would be an outcome of the World Cup that would raise too many questions.

    Blatter took action and arbitrarily changed the designated referee and Urs Meier for the game South Korea - Germany.
    The Swiss was deprived of the chance of the final game, but spared the tournament from further negative headlines.
    South Korea lost the semi-finals to Germany, and Chung then lost the election as President of Korea.
    When the World Cup referees said goodbye, Chung Mong-joon was the only one not to shake hands with Urs Meier. Sepp Blatter had acted correctly.
    --------
    Reply below the article:

    "So you, esteemed Mr. Tognoni, suggest that Urs Meier on behalf of Sepp Blatter did not whistle the semi-finals as a neutral referee, but had to ensure that Germany progressed?"

    o_O Money and sponsors destruction prevented o_O

    https://www.theage.com.au/sport/soc...entment-of-the-underdogs-20020625-gduby4.html
     
  23. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #73 PuckVanHeel, Mar 13, 2022
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2022
    There is naturally a lot about Abramovich these days and how him buying a club "protected" him, served as a protection. Also the various Arabs of course.



    In truth, football has always been a magnet for dubious people, money laundering and (war) criminals. It always had a gravitation towards places with a dark past (and present).

    Broader than football, the likes of John Demanjuk, Klaas Carel Faber, Johannes Heesters and the networks of "the saint" Gudrun Burwitz/Stille Hilfe (to name just a few people of various levels and roles) always knew in which part of developed Europe they would be particularly safe and undisturbed to have their home, where there are long-time 'underground' networks, where the general mentality of the people fits, and which parts of Germany/Spain/Europe they are less safe to go to and the denazification efforts were stronger. Even when it were, at the time, still poorer regions than the average.

    Take a look at the Italian, German and Spanish football federation at the first decades after the war and there is a nasty truth in terms of composition (not forgetting the gaffes of half-sympathizing people, such as the likes of Peco Bauwens and SS-in-Argentina visiting Hermann Neuberger).

    Even a then truly Jewish club as Ajax received money from "bunker builders" (for the occupiers) in the first decade after the war because it would (somewhat) help to protect them in case the news breaks. The hidden sentiments and mechanisms in the 'classic regions/provinces' do not suddenly go away. There are no sudden breaks.

    But that is not how some (foreign) football journalists with close ties to the subject will tell it.

    https://jungle.world/artikel/1997/45/es-gibt-beim-fc-bayern-ein-rechtes-milieu
    https://www.sueddeutsche.de/sport/f...-ns-zeit-studie-juden-ifz-interview-1.5512786

    https://taz.de/Gerd-Mueller-der-FC-Bayern-und-die-CSU/!5643686/
    https://www.n-tv.de/sport/fussball/Wie-der-FC-Bayern-wirklich-gross-wurde-article21516880.html
    https://www.nzz.ch/sport/die-krimin...enlandung-in-der-schweiz-deponiert-ld.1527671

    In part this is also because football is small beer compared to your (potentially money laundering) bank in Switzerland. Therefore the quality of governance standards might vary and is pretty much everywhere not perfect.
     
  24. Gregoriak

    Gregoriak BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 27, 2002
    Munich
    I dislike Herman Neuberger very much but he didn't meet former SS members in Argentina as you insinuate here. He did meet Hans-Urlich Rudel who was a former Luftwaffe pilot. While that guy was certainly someone who believed in Nazism, there's still a difference between a Luftwaffe pilot an a former SS member. This shows how unreliable the information you post on these boards often is.
     

Share This Page