Ballon d'Or historical speculation

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by IceBlood34, Oct 18, 2021.

  1. IceBlood34

    IceBlood34 Member

    Montpellier HSC
    France
    Jan 27, 2021
    If you understand French, there is a famous journalist internationally French named Didier Roustan, who made his ranking of the Ballon d'Or revisited by counting the South Americans, his ranking is as follows:
    - 1956: Matthews
    - 57: Di Stefano
    - 58: Pele
    - 59: Di Stefano
    - 60: Pedro Rocha
    - 61: Pele
    - 62: Garrincha
    - 63 : Pele
    - 64: Pele
    - 65: Eusébio
    - 66 : Charlton
    - 67 : Pedro Rocha
    - 68 : Pele
    - 69: Rivera
    - 70: Pele
    - 71: Cruyff
    - 72: Beckenbauer
    - 73 : Cruyff
    - 74: Cruyff
    - 75 : Blockhin
    - 76: Beckenbauer
    - 77: Simonsen
    - 78: Kempes
    - 79: Maradona
    - 80: Maradona
    - 81: Maradona
    - 82: Zico
    - 83: Platini
    - 84: Platini
    - 85: Platini
    - 86: Maradona
    - 87: Maradona
    - 88: Van Basten
    - 89: Van Basten
    - 90: Maradona
    - 91: Papin or Batistuta
    - 92: Stoickhov
    - 93: Baggio
    - 94: Romario
    - 95: Weah
    - 96: Sammer
    - 97: Ronaldo
    - 98: Zidane
    - 99: Rivaldo
    - 2000: Figo
    - 2001: Owen
    - 2002: Ronaldo
    - 2003: Nedved or Henry
    - 2004: Shevckenkho or Henry or Vieira or Bergkamp
    - 2005: Ronaldinho
    - 2006 : Cannavaro ?
    - 2007 : Kaka
    - 2008 : Ronaldo
    - 2009 : Messi
    - 2010: Iniesta
    - 2011: Messi
    - 2012: Messi
    - 2013: Ribery
    - 2014: Neuer
    - 2015: Messi
    - 2016: Griezmann
    - 2017: Ronaldo
    - 2018: Mbappé

    And from what he's been saying for the last few editions now, he doesn't seem to be contradicting himself in hindsight about Messi winning in 2019 and 2021, and a logical win for Lewandowski in 2020.

    So in total:
    Pele (6)
    Maradona (6)
    Messi (6)
    Cruyff (3)
    Platini (3)

    Do you agree with his analysis?

    Just to introduce the profile of the journalist in question, he is 64 years old and is a very very fan of Maradona, even if he tries to be the most objective (yet 6 Ballon d'Or for Pibe de Oro it seems excessive)...
    It's funny to see that he doesn't necessarily choose the same years as us for Pelé's victories (seriously 1968?).
    Tell me what you think about his analysis.
    One may also wonder about his 2018 winner with Mbappé..

    The video (in French, dating from 2018) : https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6yrj8l

    Ps:
    I had also never heard of Pedro Rocha before he mentioned him, a credible winner?
     
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  2. wm442433

    wm442433 Member+

    Sep 19, 2014
    Club:
    FC Nantes
    Interesting to see his take (never came across this video before).
    Some quick introduction of Roustan below :
    Show Spoiler

    We can precise that Roustan had a special 'affection' towards Maradona btw, as he quite closely followed his career, made a documentary about him (which is not online anymore it seems) and also proposed to Maradona and Cantona to create the Footballers world association in '95, the AIFP, a sort of players' syndicate.
    He likes the 'rebels'/ 'unconventional personalities in football' (it's a bit his trademark as a journalist, also his personality to start with) and he's also deeply into "the beautiful game" with Brazil 70 and 82, Ajax. His favorite team remains Brazil '70 with Pelé & co. although there's been Ajax with Cruijff and all the long-haired players too afterwards.
    Roustan was born in '57 and started his journalism career on TV at a very young age (before '84 and Telefoot when he's better known by a vast public as written on his wiki page. He comments games and highlights before this already, then doesn't comment live games that often afterwards, just some tournaments here and there I think. Yep, see wiki). He's known for his reports on all continents, especially in South America where he loves the fervor and where he found that football was less elitiste, still popular, and btw he was writing in Mondial too (so that's in the 80's, mondial).

    Nowadays, he's a bit the Historian of Football on the radio and in some TV shows, on L'Equipe TV. Very passionate and he knows what he's speakin' about for sure. Very often, he's overwhelming too and sometimes it is no fun anymore and really too much (his argument is that he doesn't care about the TV format and speaking time).
    Other journalists know as much as him but don't say anything as it is his character and role, others really know zilch about the history of the game which causes him deep pain it seems. He still has good takes on today's football as well but he's definitively more into the retrospectives since the 2000's. I don't think I ever saw him working on Canal+ (apart from making reportages all around the world for them). He appeared less and less on the TV screens via the biggest channels since a long time, since the early 90's. It seems that he distanced himself from it and the inner world of professional football, and at the same time he's certainly became hard to handle to such channels. Perhaps he was more or less putted aside too, dunno. He says he left. That was just before the Tapie's OM case, for instance.

    He's working at an educative and social level via football also since some years with associations like the one he created in 2003 : Foot Citoyen. With the participation of Wenger as honorary president at the start (is he still around? Dunno. More or less maybe. Roustan left the presidency lately but is still active through several interventions). They do actions against racism in particular but not only, they multiplicated the type of their interventions year after year. It's about fighting against all type of discrimination, to favor the pleasure before all in sports, all sorts of educative values/ morals.
    It seems that the association, as it was, stopped in 2018 (see the facebook) but Roustan do some actions though (under his own name... whilst he kept the Foot Citoyen Twitter account to post about diverse things... it's not clear) so dunno exactly if they're changing of name or what... and now, maybe are two entities, or what...
     
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  3. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Rocha seems to have good merit for 1967 (not necessarily to win, but to be a good candidate to be there or thereabouts among the most noted players). We on Big Soccer are not any real authority and everything we try is in retrospect, but on the thread of @Tom Stevens about the 1966/67 season (so not the full calendar year actually - initially it was going to be calendar year for South America but upon request it was amended to the same period for every player like a real-time vote would be and the summer to summer European season was selected with South American players judged on their merits within that period too) he was considered by consensus to be right in the mix, and comfortably made our combined 23 player shortlist (and I see I made a post attempting to allocate positions based on all the votes and he might have been 4th based on that method - with overall best player votes and overall inclusions taking precedence over Team of the Season inclusions - he didn't make Team of the Season although had 4 votes for it altogether - maybe 4th place in a results breakdown is arguable between him and Charlton though, as after all Charlton did have the same number of points in the top player voting, and more Team of the Season votes, but just one less overall inclusion)
    https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/b...the-season-1967.2097438/page-17#post-37648361

    In 1960 his Penarol team did win the Uruguayan league and the Copa Libertadores. Maybe @msioux75 has some good info about ratings or testimony about his performances at that time?
     
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  4. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #129 PuckVanHeel, Jan 20, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2022
    Cruijff ruled out for 1972 while topscorer in all competitions he entered (incl. NT qualifiers) and winning the treble shows again the magnitude of the handicap, further magnified by the 'short peak myth'.

    You have to win stuff to be in the conversation and even then there is a cordon sanitaire by 'the cartel' (England, Italy, West Germany at that point in time, all never had him as #1).

    The media in a nutshell. All previous euro tournaments didn't have a strong effect on the voting, and now suddenly a tournament where the USSR didn't use their best team does. The only difference is the nationalities in the mix.
     
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  5. wm442433

    wm442433 Member+

    Sep 19, 2014
    Club:
    FC Nantes
    I've just watched the video now; So, btw, in the beginning of it, we have the whole picture about Roustan since he takes advantage of that (individualistic) Ballon d'Or that could make a good number of views to talk about his associations.

    So he's not far of 10 BdO for Pelé (I don't translate the less debated ones).

    '58 : "Kopa. I adore Kopa, a delicious man, the Napoleon of football etc. but I put Pelé. He scores 3 in the semi-finals you know, then 2 in the final... and not any goals... it was above the defenders and voilà... 17 years and half... pfff...So there's a change, I can't help, it's not Kopa, it's Pelé".

    In 1959 he says "Di Stefano. Alright. Don Alfredo, here's your second BdO, alright".

    '61, '63, '64

    In 1965 : "Eusébio. I leave it to him. We will leave Pelé breathe a bit, he who was still smashing everything because attention : there was many great players in South America. Especially in Brazill, all the best players are playing there in their league, the level was high. But I'm willingly leaving it to Eusebio; very nice".

    1968 : "Oh, Best. I love Georgie Best. But Pelé, in '68, get the infos; that year, Pelé wins everything. He won the Paulista, he won the Brazilian league, he won the championship with all the former intercontinental champions... he won that, he smashes everybody, what do you want, he's Pelé. I can't help. George... don't blame me, George. But what a player, Best".

    In 1969 : "Come on. Pelé is doing massacres but we will leave Gianni Rivera the maestro, what a beautiful player. The mastermind of Milan AC, I'm in awe. He wins the European Cup final against Ajax that arrive with a young Cruijff, with three goals by Prati. Great player".

    1970 : "You can't not have Pelé. All what he did and even what he did not... it remains legendary : the dribble in front of Mazurkiewicz, the lob from the half-way line against the Czechoslovakia of Viktor, the header... I scored but Banks saved it... Pelé in '70, well... let's forget about it [no doubt, next]".

    Plus '71 : "Cruijff, yes [a little yes but a nice little yes if you see what I mean]. Because the win in the final against, hum, Panathinaikos... because there's no other players, really... because you need the chance somehow, to arrive in a season when there's not another monster player or a competition where somebody else was brilliant so you can't not having him... so that counts too... in '71, planet football was not that [not that populated with great candidates, I guess, since he doesn't end this idea]... Ajax arrive though, and will decimate everything on their way but... [so yeah. That year we don't know already that Ajax will win two more European Cups, against more prestigious opponents... but that year, there was room for Cruijff. Contrarily to before perhaps too, he wants to say, although he did not speak of him earlier, and most of all for he sees him bigger, a bit later].

    Roustan also insists on the fact that a player doesn't need to win a final in order to be elected, in several occasions ('74, '77...).

    Also, about 2018, he doesn't go for Modric saying : "going by this logic [the logic of the voters, especially nowadays who look way to much at the titles, as he said], I like Karembeu, but in '98, you'd never give it to Karembeu". That's because Modric had the CL in addition of the WC runner-up place, ofc, that he says that. And in gross : "I adore Modric, magnificient, it's good that a player like this wins the BdO but he had better seasons before, possibly at Tottenham when he has a good Euro, loosing to Spain but after he had a fantastic game...".

    Also he thinks that it should be by season. For instance, in '92, "it was 6 months that Stoichkov won the European Cup so everybody almost forgot about it and Van Basten had 4 goals against Göteborg, with a bicycle-kick, just before voting".

    I have Pelé in '68 as well, so I feel less alone.

    About 2018, as for Mbappé, I have a problem à la Xaviniesta so to speak with the importance of Griezmann in the link-play (without forgetting Giroud btw). So that's for the benefit of more of a lone star or cannibal player like Messi or CR (not saying who is who, the order has no importance, they're a bit of both things each, I suppose). So that's Messi, for me, in 2018.
    But since that time, and especially now, when we can see who's the most important at PSG (as of now), Mbappé can be hacked off. He's young though so he has time to win it but we never know what will happen and he has a couple of missed occasions already.
    Btw, although the beginning of his 2021 year was not fantastic (as he had to adapt to a new system/ new use of him at PSG, as he said, which is completely receivable) plus the Euro... but there's also the Nations League and other things, he ranks incredibly low in that last BdO ranking, imo.
    Messi, it looks like it's all about winning the Copa America. And this time, Mbappé was playing with Benzema who scored at both the Euros and the Nations thing. Patience... but yep, I think it's arguable he could have already one or two. But there was no room, talking about the context of some specific years, as above.
    If he felt like he was robbed in a couple of occasions, I can understant him... partly. Anyway, he doesn't seem to think much about the past and more about what he's doing right now, and what he will do. I have the impression he learned from the Euros and that he's more focused since some time. That's the mark of a great player. He had the right to do some 'errors'. He's 23 now. It will arrive.
    PSG still looks unbalanced as hell tho. He really carries the team since some time.
     
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  6. wm442433

    wm442433 Member+

    Sep 19, 2014
    Club:
    FC Nantes
    In Football Magazine of February 1960 : "now, we know why Santos, the club of Pelé, lost their title of Paulista champions to Palmeiras. The directors of the latter club offered super premiums to the opponents of Santos. The players of Botafogo de Rio Preto - who had a 2-2 draw game with Santos during the penultimate matchday - have just confessed that they received 5000 NF [nouveaux francs] in order to get the best possible result. Palmeiras, victor of Santos after three barrages (1-1, 2-2, 2-1) is the club of Julinho, the famous right winger who played at Fiorentina in 1957 and 1958".
     
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  7. IceBlood34

    IceBlood34 Member

    Montpellier HSC
    France
    Jan 27, 2021
    It's exactly my feeling too, you can feel that he carries Pele and Maradona in his heart, and his objectivity is lost a bit (at the same time I can understand it's human, I will do the same with Messi).
    However, we can disagree with his explanations, we feel that every year he could give it to Pele or Maradona, however we must step back a little.
    Starting with 1958, he talks a lot about Pele, but we must not forget the beautiful World Cup of Kopa, which is in line with his season with Real Madrid, but above all we must highlight the World Cup of Didi, who is for many the best player of Brazil and even of the tournament.
    After that, he is in his logic, if he crowns Pele in 1958, he crowns Mbappé in 2018, which he did, so he is logical in his way of thinking, although it is disputable.
    In 1959 and in some years, he does not try to explain his choices clearly by statistics, trophies, it is rather basically "come on I give it to you because you deserved it for your whole career but Pele should have won it".
    Although Pele and Maradona would have had the same popularity as Messi and Ronaldo, I don't think that every year he would have won the trophy knowing that it wasn't the same propaganda as now, Pele playing in Brazil and the European journalists not being fooled by the myth, just like Maradona, who could have had fierce competitors in Italy, or even when he was in Argentina
    In 1960 I agree with him that Pelé is not in the discussion
    I agree with his awards in 1961, 1963 and 1962 for Garrincha, one could still put a doubt on the award in 1964.
    I don't have enough feedback to know if the voters would have preferred a guy who wins everything (Luis Suarez this year Champions League, International Cup with Inter Milan and Euro with Spain) rather than Pele who continues to perform without winning "super important" things (only the Brazilian championships).
    For 1965, it would be perhaps even the year in which Pele deserves more the Ballon d'Or (except 1961), and it puts Eusebio in compensation.
    In 1966, 1967 I do not question his awards.
    I also don't understand why he puts Pele in 1968, knowing that he doesn't put him in 1969, the opposite would have been more coherent for me. Especially since he talks about the International Cup Supercup, that Santos FC won the 1968 edition in 1969... So more logical again to give him in 1969.
    His victory in 1970 is also logical for me, considering Pele's status, even if without doubt other Brazilians could have had it, but Pele's charisma would have allowed him to have it.
    Checking Pedro Rocha, I practically agree with him to give him in 1960 (winner of the Copa Libertadores with Penarol) and in 1967 when he won the Copa America with Uruguay.
    For me, with his calculations: 1958: Didi
    1959: Di Stefano
    1960: Pedro Rocha
    1961: Pele
    1962: Garrincha
    1963: Pele
    1964 : Luis Suarez or Pelé
    1965 : Pele
    1966 : Charlton
    1967: Pedro Rocha
    1968: Best
    1969: Pele
    1970: Pele
     
  8. IceBlood34

    IceBlood34 Member

    Montpellier HSC
    France
    Jan 27, 2021
    For Maradona, once again I find him quite biased in his remarks (which I can't blame him for).
    For the first years of Maradona, I think there would be a match between him and Zico, some would have given it to Maradona, others to Zico. It's complicated for me, because Maradona is having an excellent U20 World Cup, he's the planetary revelation with the title of best player of the tournament but also second top scorer of the tournament with 6 goals.
    However, let's put it into perspective, would Messi have won the 2005 Ballon d'Or given his exceptional performances also at the 2005 U20 World Cup?
    Certainly not. Don't see in me someone trying to discredit Maradona, on the contrary. I'm just trying to make sense of the weight of the competitions between them, I'm not saying that Maradona wouldn't have deserved it but Zico seems to be a credible competitor, he surfed the World Cup in 1978 and he made a Copa America 1979 correct.
    We could also talk about Falcao, the Brazilian.
    I especially have the impression that this year 1979 does not present any really impressive player, who combines performance and trophy.
    Thus, it is probably to bet that the hype around Maradona is so strong that the latter could have won his first Ballon d'Or, although FranceFootball did not change his record when they had the opportunity.
    In 1980, we can also say that Maradona and Zico could pull the plug to compete with Rummenigge, who would have been robbed of his Ballon d'Or without doubt by Maradona, who we find slightly better than Zico at the time. I think it would have been for nothing but that the charisma that Maradona was starting to create for himself would have taken the advantage over Zico.
    On the other hand, in 1981, Zico would have deserved his Ballon d'Or, given his season but also his last two years where he would have been beaten by Maradona.
    For me, we would not have seen Maradona win the trophy again before 1986, I agree with his explanations.
    I also attribute to him in 1987, just like probably in 1990, just ahead of Matthaus.
    For his other attributions, I quite agree, although I have no hindsight for 1982, because many say that Paolo Rossi only woke up for the 1982 World Cup, and would not have deserved it if South Americans would have been eligible.
    Michel Platini also deserved his victories in 1983, 1984 and 1985, as did Van Basten in 1988 and 1989, even if Maradona won the UEFA Cup with Napoli in 1989.
    So based again on his estimates:
    1979: Maradona
    1980: Maradona
    1981: Zico
    1982: Zico
    1983: Platini
    1984: Platini
    1985: Platini
    1986: Maradona
    1987: Maradona
    1988: Van Basten
    1989: Van Basten
    1990: Maradona
     
  9. IceBlood34

    IceBlood34 Member

    Montpellier HSC
    France
    Jan 27, 2021
    Finally, I will come back to the Mbappé case.
    I don't agree that he deserves the 2018 Ballon d'Or, although he is THE revelation of the 2018 World Cup and he wins it.
    We can also draw the same parallel with the 1958 World Cup for Pelé.
    Going from the best young player in the competition to a winner of a Ballon d'Or is different.
    I find, for example, that his start to the year was more promising last year (2021) than in 2018.
    Before the Euro 2021, Mbappé was for me among the three favorites for the Ballon d'Or. Unfortunately, the very end of the 2020-2021 season, with the loss of the Ligue 1 title and the defeat in the Champions League semi-finals, caused him to lose precious points.
    To finish in style (in a negative sense), he missed his Euro with France, like his missed penalty against Switzerland.
    However, I agree that his 9th place in the Ballon d'Or 2021 is very severe, for me I would have put him maybe 7th or 6th, ahead of Salah (I still don't understand why the Egyptian could have been in the top 10, I think Erling Haaland deserved to be in the top 10 in his place) but also ahead of C Ronaldo.
    Since his summer agitated (rumor of departure from PSG) I find that he has become the leader and the decisive player of PSG, even with the arrival of Messi.
    For the moment, even if it is still early to decide, he is still one of the favorites for the Ballon d'Or 2022, alongside Lewandowski, Salah and Benzema. With his increased chances with France for the 2022 World Cup, this may be Mbappé's year.
    In any case, his start to the season is very impressive.
    Nevertheless, I find it logical that he has not yet won a Ballon d'Or, he is only 23 years old and the previous winners (2018, 2019, 2020*, 2021) deserve their victory much more than him.
     
  10. IceBlood34

    IceBlood34 Member

    Montpellier HSC
    France
    Jan 27, 2021
    Likewise, he expressed doubts for a victory of Maradona in 1977 when he was not even 17 years old.. and others like Keegan or Simmonsen deserved the Ballon d'Or far more, hence his loss of objectivity..
     
  11. wm442433

    wm442433 Member+

    Sep 19, 2014
    Club:
    FC Nantes
    He also has sort of a draw game between Papin and Batistuta for the '91 year (Argentina, La Bombonera... his favorite stadium iirc of what he said here and there, he went often there). But everything can be argued.
     
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  12. anamnesis del fútbol

    Apr 9, 2021
    I was reviewing and reflecting on who I would choose as the best player of the year and my results were as follows:

    7 Pele (1958, 1959, 1961, 1962, 1963, 1964 and 1965)
    6 Messi (2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2015 and 2019)
    5 Cristiano (2008, 2013, 2014, 2016, 2017)
    3 Cruyff (1971, 1973 and 1974)
    3 Zico (1981, 1982 and 1983)
    3 Cruyff (1971, 1973 y 1974)
    3 Zico (1981, 1982 y 1983)
    3 Ronaldo (1996, 1997 y 2002)
    3 Cruyff (1971, 1973 and 1974)
    3 Zico (1981, 1982 and 1983)
    3 Ronaldo (1996, 1997 and 2002)

    This is by no means my list of best players ever. However, perhaps Pelé has the best prime in history. His impact on the game was from another planet. The most dominant player of his time. There would be no debate if Pelé had shown greater longevity and if he had triumphed in a major in Europe, the narrative would be different.
     
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  13. anamnesis del fútbol

    Apr 9, 2021
    I am taking into account from 1956. Since the Ballon d'Or was created. I think that Puskás was the best in at least 3 or 4 years.
     
  14. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    @wm442433 I was wondering about who might be winners of a 'New Star of the Year' award, or 'Breakthrough Star of the Year' (a bit similar to 'Young Player of the Year' in England for example or the Bravo award, but not with a specific age limit), since the main award winners would mainly be those with some pre-existing history as great players. The 'New Star of the Year' winners could then go on to win the main award later (although someone could do that without having been a New Star of the Year before).

    Maybe it could be something like this (switching the 2018 main award winner to De Bruyne (with Marco Verratti for 2021 instead) and the 1991 winner to Papin)?

    1946 - Rene Pontoni
    1947 - Valentino Mazzola
    1948 - Stan Mortensen
    1949 - Tom Finney
    1950 - Ferenc Puskas
    1951 - Alfredo Di Stefano
    1952 - Karl Aage Praest
    1953 - Bernard Vukas
    1954 - Sandor Kocsis
    1955 - Raymond Kopa
    1956 - Duncan Edwards
    1957 - Garrincha
    1958 - Pele
    1959 - Florian Albert
    1960 - Luis Suarez
    1961 - Eusebio
    1962 - Gianni Rivera
    1963 - Jimmy Greaves
    1964 - Giacinto Facchetti
    1965 - Franz Beckenbauer
    1966 - Johan Cruyff
    1967 - George Best
    1968 - Dragan Dzajic
    1969 - Wlodzimierz Lubanski
    1970 - Teofilo Cubillas
    1971 - Johan Neeskens
    1972 - Kazimierz Deyna
    1973 - Rob Rensenbrink
    1974 - Zico
    1975 - Oleg Blokhin
    1976 - Michel Platini
    1977 - Allan Simonsen
    1978 - Paolo Rossi
    1979 - Diego Maradona
    1980 - Karl-Heinz Rummenigge
    1981 - Glenn Hoddle
    1982 - Pierre Littbarski
    1983 - Michael Laudrup
    1984 - Enzo Scifo
    1985 - Marco van Basten
    1986 - Ruud Gullit
    1987 - Paulo Futre
    1988 - Dragan Stojkovic
    1989 - Romario
    1990 - Paul Gascoigne
    1991 - Dejan Savicevic
    1992 - Dennis Bergkamp
    1993 - Eric Cantona
    1994 - Cafu
    1995 - Ronaldo
    1996 - Alessandro Del Piero
    1997 - Luis Figo
    1998 - Michael Owen
    1999 - Andriy Shevchenko
    2000 - Francesco Totti
    2001 - Robert Pires
    2002 - Ronaldinho
    2003 - Thierry Henry
    2004 - Kaka
    2005 - Samuel Eto'o
    2006 - Andrea Pirlo
    2007 - Cristiano Ronaldo
    2008 - Lionel Messi
    2009 - Andres Iniesta
    2010 - Wesley Sneijder
    2011 - Neymar
    2012 - David Silva
    2013 - Gareth Bale
    2014 - James Rodriguez
    2015 - Eden Hazard
    2016 - N'Golo Kante
    2017 - Kevin De Bruyne
    2018 - Mohamed Salah
    2019 - Sadio Mane
    2020 - Kylian Mbappe
    2021 - Pedri
     
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  15. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord


    As usual, people are very quick to just remove a few Ballon d'Ors from his tally (just as erasing the one Gullit received).

    The double handicap in full glory. An easy target and demographic to short-change.

    What is it for nonsense to completely erase Cruijff as option for 1972? (if it was Maradona or so, with those trophies and topscorer honors in all competitions played, it does not happen) In what bizarre universe were Tostao or Rivera individually better than him in 1969? His best years are basically 1967-1969, 1971-1972, 1974, 1977 (and in 1977 he WAS seen as the best in the world, even in Brazil and Argentina). Make of it what you want.
     
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  16. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Too late to edit, but maybe already Messi for 2007, allowing Fernando Torres for 2008, for this theoretical new star/breakthrough award (although maybe 2007/2008 season is the best 12 month period for Torres, half in 2007 of course).

    I'd thought about Bryan Robson as alternative idea for 1983, perhaps moving Laudrup to 1985, but don't think I'll change that, or put Butragueno in for 1987 (after his actual Bravo awards - as they suggest he's already a contender for 1985 himself too probably but I feel like Van Basten is a good choice) which could be a close call with Futre I guess (or Romario already even alternatively, which could see Hagi in for 1989 or something?)*Perhaps Romario and Stojkovic switching between 1988 and 1989 is not out of the question either...., and Valderrama for 1987 is definitely an option I'd think even though he wasn't exactly young for a football player by then - younger than Cantona in 1993 and similar to Di Stefano in 1951 though for example....
     
  17. IceBlood34

    IceBlood34 Member

    Montpellier HSC
    France
    Jan 27, 2021
    Thank you for giving your opinion

    However, has anyone tried to make a year by year comparison (since 1956) of each competitor, in order to have the most objective opinion possible?

    Also, do you think that Messi, if he manages to win the World Cup this year with Argentina, can become the GOAT of the game?
     
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  18. anamnesis del fútbol

    Apr 9, 2021
    I saw a thread on this forum looking for possible Ballon d'Or winners since 1920.

    As for Messi, he doesn't need to win a World Cup to be considered the goat. It seems absurd to me to judge the players only based on the World Cup. Although I have no doubt that if he wins a World Cup with an acceptable performance, in my country the debate between Maradona and Messi will end.
     
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  19. wm442433

    wm442433 Member+

    Sep 19, 2014
    Club:
    FC Nantes
    Yeah, it's another interesting angle of view. Looks good.

    Just at first sight (even knowing that there's no limit of age) :
    - I wonder if V. Mazzola could not be the breakthrough poy earlier.
    - I just dunno much about Hoddle for '81 and on the other hand, for instance, I found it's great to see Litti for '82 or Cafu for '94.
    - on that '91 year, I can't understand on how the revised lists for the main Bdo (incl. yours possibly) can have Savicevic instead of Papin but here I fully understand and Papin is not young or even new enough to challenge him I think (btw, has De Bruyne no challengers in 2017?) so he'd be definitively absent of this one list for sure. We tend to prefer the breakthrough that did not take too much time, I guess.
    - as for 2016, Kanté was not integrated as a starting player yet, by Deschamps. That's one reservation.

    So at first sight, still, I think I "95%" agree. Which makes me say : great job!

    Without having searched anything for the moment, the only years that makes me wonder are 1953 and 1959 (quite for obvious reasons = no idea). '72 : I guess there was no room earlier but that there's room this time so it must be right. '81 : as already said above (dunno. There are the Georgians around at that time too, I guess). '93 : not sure if a younger talent, maybe like Asprilla, could no twin it. Btw, Raul is trapped in this ranking. 2005/06 : must see, must do the search. 2016/17 : same.

    So, you must have some finalists in mind and/ or on notes?

    + yes, Verratti : there's the problem with his numerous and recurrent absences.
     
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  20. wm442433

    wm442433 Member+

    Sep 19, 2014
    Club:
    FC Nantes
    Well, that was one half-wrong, half-true remembrance, because he was a starter in the groups but at one point he's not used anymore.
    It's like a player like Davids imo; at times you can't really know what's the exact reason of them not being used/ missing some games. Strange. They're not the only ones but that's two striking examples. Gastro-enteritis, discipline problems, tactics, some injury... myeah.
     
  21. anamnesis del fútbol

    Apr 9, 2021
    I'm really not sure about Maradona in 1980. I saw the Guerin Sportivo and Onze Mundial publications and they coincide with France Football. They all give Rummenigge the winner. Although Maradona's season was the best of his career, Rummenigge's was very good, apart from the 2 titles he won with Bayern and the NT. 1979 generates more doubts in me, I think Keegan would not be a rival for Maradona in that year. Zico scored thousands of goals, but almost all of them in the regional league. Falcão seems to me a great candidate for that year, he was the best in the Brazilian league with the highest score in history. Zico 1982 and 1983 is also questionable. Maybe I was too generous with him. I would like your opinion @PDG1978 that you have more knowledge on the subject. What do others think?
     
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  22. wm442433

    wm442433 Member+

    Sep 19, 2014
    Club:
    FC Nantes
    Perhaps Best in '66 and Cruijff in '67, also taking in account that Best has more of a background already and maybe a more resonating exploit in Europe against Benfica.
    In a "best young player" try that I've found back, I had Tostao in '66, Best in '67 and Cruijff in '68. Beckenbauer in '65, so that's the same as with this ranking without limit of age. I had Greaves & Law ex-aequo in '63... with a limit of age (probably 23 years old max). Neeskens '71 and others also match. I had Hoddle in '80.
    "In light of" this best young award I made (that surely could be re-arranged) , I'm not sure of Van Basten as soon as '85 in your list, now I see (I have... Michel, in my 23 years max list. Knowing that Marco fits the criteria about the age ofc).
    Also I see I have Mbappé in 2017 and he also finishes ahead of De Bruyne with a significant margin in the actual BdO (did not remember that when typing my first reply) so I guess I'd stick to it. That's two different roles on the pitch though.
    Then I don't know who I'd have for 2020 with the criterias of your post; probably not De Bruyne, although it's the first time I have him in my personal BdO top-5. So, a newer player if possible, with some clear breakthrough... no idea atm.
     
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  23. wm442433

    wm442433 Member+

    Sep 19, 2014
    Club:
    FC Nantes
    YES/ agree to everything. Or almost.
    Just, not sure about Falcao entering the equation for the win in '79. Maybe the Brazilians eat pts. between themselves btw. To me, it's a final Keegan v Maradona which is rather balanced.
    Then, with an international panel of voters and all the different nations Maradona met that year, especially in Japan... dunno, but it's not like Keegan was a nobody, he was a star and he had that transfer and now the German league title. He has a background too, to begin with. He qualified for the Euros scoring several goals.
    Maradona did not prove himself in the same league yet. Internationally, that's kind of exhibition games for the most part.
    Balanced still, I guess, but yes, no, I won't leave Keegan out of the equation. There's a serious match-up there. If Maradona succeeds in beating Brazil in that first leg match of the Copa America groups with Argentina, providing a good performance, perhaps it's enough to make him the clear winner, but it's not the case.
    Undecided, still. Or, it's 51% against 49% in favor of Keegan in my mind. To say it can go either way, to me, but I don't see Keegan being soundly beaten; although it's impossilbe to know what the voters would have done.

    In any case, Falcao was voted behind Romerito in South America (and yes, ahead of Zico, and Fillol, first). So the Copa America also still mattered a bit, it seems.
     
  24. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Thanks for your response and thoughts mate!


    To answer re: the points you put in this reply...

    - Yeah, I'd imagine Valentino Mazzola could be already seen as a breakthrough star candidate before (and then a challenger for Matthews for the main award in 1947), but I was thinking in terms of if the award was created 'post-war' and started in 1946 itself rather than before, and it seems like Pontoni has a good case for 1946, although I would think Mazzola would be considered the greater all round player, and I'm not really clued up about whether he played better in the first or second half of 1946/47, or similar in both.

    - From what I knew and saw before myself I already felt Hoddle would have a better claim for 1981 calendar year (and then 1983 calendar year), than for seasons as a whole (such as 1981/82, or certainly 1983/84 where he missed a lot of games towards the end). Seeing the ratings from Match magazine backs that up too. It's certainly true that already in 1979/80 he'd made a big impact (and had a great goalscoring season), but I suppose I'm thinking he'd still be 'new' enough as a breakthrough star in 1981, and with quite a lot of merit in league, FA Cup, European games (a little bit as an International player too, but less so) I felt it could be a valid choice and/or he could potentially take that award (though he didn't get actual Ballon d'Or votes or feature in Guerin Sportivo's voting for Team of the Calendar Year). You're right about Eastern European candidates being in good supply around that time of course - for that particular year it seems that based on the votes of Eastern European voters (at least in one poll, as linked here), if discounting Blokhin as pre-established from the mid 70s (and possibly/probably already having won the award or the main one even, for 1975), then Shengelia and Chivadze were the top candidates (and yes both quite new as international star players I think weren't they?):
    Newspapers' Best Players From Eastern European Nations | BigSoccer Forum

    - Yeah, I did admire the skills and qualities of Savicevic, and did remember somewhat his time at Red Star, but saw more of him in the AC Milan period, and my initial idea was Papin for 1991 calendar year whenever I first made an attempt on Big Soccer, though maybe the more footage of Savicevic from 90/91 I saw on Youtube etc the closer I might think it could be, and it probably seems fair to say after 90/91 he'd arrived as a great player (or one who was great in his best form, rather than established as a great over time), but I think it makes sense if specifically picking a breakthrough star and an overall 'Hall of Fame' type Ballon d'Or winner to choose Papin for the latter and Savicevic as breakthrough (because he just had a few moments in the spotlight such as in 1988 before, and was lesser known for his first smaller Yugoslav club, while Papin had been around for quite a while indeed, but by the end of 1991 he'd strung together a good run as a prolific striker and key player of Marseille...and 1991 overall does seem very good for him in both respects).
    - Yeah, Kante is a little bit more based on club form and impact for both Leicester, and Chelsea at the start of the next season.

    - You're right about Verratti in terms of what you said (and you have more insight than me in general of course, with him playing in France) re: the 2021 main award: the alternative could be Salah (as I switched De Bruyne into 2018 for the main award of course), although I think more based on the start of 2021/22 than end of 2020/21, and maybe it still seemed to me for a Hall of Fame type recognition (as per giving the 'Ballon d'Or' to established players) Verratti might fit better, although I think Salah seems to have already shown some very good form for Roma, a bit more under the radar in Serie A's 'down period' in terms of prestige. If it was based on seasons then maybe Harry Kane would come into it, but I did think the start of the season had been better (and for me Verratti, although missing some game time, had the more stand-out Euros, even if Kane contributed quite usefully towards the end in some respects - not showing the sort of form, especially from a creative/assisting perspective as he had earlier in the season, or in general in the club season maybe, though). Tricky choice maybe, considering Lewandowski already taking the previous year's award, Messi taking one already way back in 2009 etc. I guess in reality it could be quite a split vote, with the likes of Verratti and Kane getting some support as well as a few others, although maybe momentum could build in Salah's favour in late 2021...but yeah I felt (tentatively) that all in all Verratti might be the choice I'd put forwards (and likewise Pedri for new/breakthrough star, with the merit of Euros performances also playing a part there I think).

    - Raul did cross my mind for 1998 possibly, but Owen was more a breakthrough and over the calendar year probably with more consistent impact. Maybe already for 1996 for example Raul could be a breakthrough star contender, but I think Del Piero was making more of an impact at that moment (a full breakdown of how they each did over 1996 calendar year might be interesting though). Del Piero didn't have a great Euros, but on the other hand Raul was not yet selected at all, and played the Under 21 version instead (being top scorer):
    1996 UEFA European Under-21 Championship - Wikipedia
    I remember already towards the end of 95/96 there were puns about 'Raul Madrid' because of his impact as a club player anyway, and before the end of calendar year 1996 during El Classico coverage I noticed viewers were asked to vote on 'Raul vs Ronaldo' too!
    Raul was La Liga breakthrough player of 94/95 of course too, already (though La Liga breakthrough player isn't the same as worldwide breakthrough player necessarily).
     
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  25. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I guess it's true that Falcao would be a good candidate as breakthrough/new star for 1979, if Maradona was to be given the main award rather than Keegan (maybe it seems too soon, although I know he'd already shone for Argentinos Juniors in 1977 and 1978 and then made a big impact at the Youth World Cup with Argentina as well as in some Internationals like vs Scotland - Keegan was more established though of course, as was Dalglish for example).

    It seems like in general 1982 was very good for Zico, and of course for the first part of it Rossi was not playing football at all. The narrative about the World Cup and in particular the Italy vs Brazil game might sway some voters in reality though I I guess (or a lot of voters), even though Zico did make a great assist in the game too (but yeah, didn't have much of an impact outside of that). Rossi did show some good form and scored a decent number of goals at the start of 82/83 though also. For 1983 Zico continues to do well for Flamengo and then makes a great start for Udinese. but surely Platini is a major contender for that calendar year I think (maybe it's even his best one overall form wise).
     
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