The Random Thoughts Thread (with extra Ken)

Discussion in 'Liverpool' started by usscouse, Sep 18, 2021.

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  1. canucksh

    canucksh Member

    Jun 2, 2015
    I live in Australia and I'm curious to know where these quarantine camps are?
    Australia and NZ successfully achieved a covid zero respose up until the Delta variant. Deaths from covid in Australia has been substantially lower than most countries around the world.
    Delta has forced a change in policy but also we now have most of our population vaccinated.
    Vaccination passports have been around for decades.
    Mandatory vaccinations have also been around for decades.

    I'm vaccinated, wear a mask as directed and check in to locations I visit so that others in our community, who are at high risk, can also have their freedom.
     
  2. newterp

    newterp Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jun 6, 2007
    North Potomac, MD
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:

    so, what you're saying is that he posted sensationalist and made-up BS?
     
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  3. canucksh

    canucksh Member

    Jun 2, 2015
    Australia and NZ have always had quarantine requirements. This has usually involved staying 14 days in a hotel. There has been discussions of setting up camps ,for over 18 months now, as a better option because you can provide more space and freedom instead of being stuck in a hotel room for 14 days. Which isn't very comfortable.
    When we are talking about camps it's more like the difference between a hotel room and a glamping site.
     
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  4. speker

    speker Member+

    May 16, 2009
    Canada
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    There's a lot of it going around.
     
  5. speker

    speker Member+

    May 16, 2009
    Canada
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    #230 speker, Dec 4, 2021
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2021
    Canada has similar quarantine requirements which have been stepped up again due to Omicron.

    Alarmed by the new omicron coronavirus variant, the federal government announced this week it would make these incoming passengers get another COVID-19 test when they arrive in Canada. This new test is in addition to the pre-departure molecular test that all travellers must undergo before leaving for Canada.

    Once a fully vaccinated passenger arrives at a Canadian airport from a non-U.S. foreign destination, they will either be swabbed by a public health nurse or get a take-home test.

    That traveller must then self-isolate at home or at their designated quarantine destination (such as a hotel) while they await the results of the test. It may take up to three days to get a result.

    If that traveller gets a negative result, they're free to leave self-isolation and move about as they normally would. If the test is positive, they must stay in quarantine for 14 days.
     
  6. burning247

    burning247 Member+

    Liverpool FC
    England
    Sep 16, 2000
    Dallas
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    I definitely don't want to speak for Wingtips but I think the point he may be trying to make (through a lot of anger and bad examples) is that our current policy of losing our F'n minds every time a new variant shows up is unsustainable. That's my point at least. This virus is endemic at this point and this is just going to keep happening. You're going to get exposed to this virus whether you like it or not (living any kind of life worth living at least). The best policy is to take care of yourself as best as possible. If that means getting the vaccine, great. But vaccines are clearly not stopping the spread. They might be slowing it down (I hope they are) but at some point, we have to just let everyone make up their own damn minds. If they want to risk it unvaccinated, have at it. If the vaccine is effective for those taking it (as we've been told over and over), then it shouldn't make any difference to a vaccinated person. If hospitals are at capacity in your area, that's just something else to consider when you weigh your protection options.

    We didn't even hear about the symptoms of Omicron before everyone started losing their collective minds. Turns out it doesn't look that serious. This is also your reminder that I am fully vaccinated and take good care of myself. I haven't gotten a booster (yet?) and I'm still skeptical of young children needing a vaccine but I'm no anti-vax nut.
     
  7. newterp

    newterp Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jun 6, 2007
    North Potomac, MD
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don't have a problem with this thought process either - because it is indeed tiresome and tedious to continue to go crazy everytime. But each country has very different situations that need to be accounted for as well.

    We went to Jamaica for a week for Thanksgiving - they don't want to see anything like the first lock down ever again - as it crushed their fully tourism based economy. So they are going to be very stringent - even if people are vaccinated. Other countries will have their own reasons. But the reasons are not truly so they can control you a la 1984.
     
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  8. SamScouse

    SamScouse Member+

    Jun 1, 2015
    Toronto
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    but ... hold on a minute ....

    what caused Tips to go batshit was what I posted about Germany (imposing another lockdown and talking about mandatory vaccinations). this is NOT because of Omicron, but in reaction to the runaway Delta in their country.

    Covid is at the worst point since it arrived there - because their vaxx rate is crap due to so many knobheads taking the "you're not the boss of me!" stance. it's not a case of ppl losing their shit coz Omicrom has suddenly popped up.

    I'm still waiting to hear what his answer is to my question. not holding my breath.
     
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  9. speker

    speker Member+

    May 16, 2009
    Canada
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    I'm pretty sure everyone is sick and tired of covid. I know I am but the virus doesn't give a shit .It will continue to spread wherever it can and continue to kill many many people. Vaccination remains our best defence against hospitalization and death but because large swathes of our planet is still unvaccinated the spread continues , hospitals get overwhelmed and with each new infection the chance of a more serious mutation increases eg Omicron.
    I don't think it's cases of people losing there minds but rather this pandemic is fluid and ongoing . New variants , potentially more dangerous variants like Omicron throw up new challenges for public health to deal with .
    We've had restrictions here in Canada but the goal is to control and protect against the virus nothing more nefarious.

    In its latest update on Saturday morning, the University's Center for Systems Science and Engineering (CSSE) revealed that the current global caseload and death toll stood at 264,892,562 and 5,242,384 respectively. And the total number of vaccine doses administered was 8,118,138,512.

    The US continues to be the worst-hit country with the world's highest number of cases and deaths at 48,990,127 and 787,695, respectively according to the CSSE.
    Global Covid caseload tops 264.89 mn, deaths surge to more than 5.24 mn | Business Standard News (business-standard.com)
     
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  10. burning247

    burning247 Member+

    Liverpool FC
    England
    Sep 16, 2000
    Dallas
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    I agree with you, which is why I should let it go but...


    I'm still not sold this is the case. Are you saying that Omicron is being shipped around the world by non-vaccinated travelers right now? That's pretty far-fetched considering the travel restrictions and vaccine mandates of many countries. I truly believe the vaccine protects the vast majority of people from severe illness, not necessarily spread (but I'd bet it does slow it down considerably). I'm just not sold on "if the whole world was 100% vaccinated (never would happen but IF), we would not be dealing with a mutated virus!" There's just way too much we don't know about this virus, its orgins (conveniently) and how to combat it.

    I agree with most of you that overall the governments aren't using these outbreaks for nefarious means but it's still not the type of power we should be giving our leaders to use indefinitely. There are many who agree with me and that's why you're seeing so many protests globally about further restrictions. Most people are over this nonsense and want to take on this virus as they see fit.

    I also think you should be skeptical of every "booster" they want to shove down your throat (err....arm). These drug companies are going to make astronomical profits off of this crisis and we need to have a lot of independent studies around the need for further doses. Especially for those who aren't in comorbidity groups.
     
  11. speker

    speker Member+

    May 16, 2009
    Canada
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    #236 speker, Dec 4, 2021
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2021
    Vaccination doesn't mean 100% immunity and it seems Omicron is highly contagious , many more times than Delta so even double vaxxed can be easily infected from what I read. Even more reason to have as much protection as possible .
    Omicron is something new though I was talking more about continued spread within countries where the unvaxxed are more likely to get very sick , hospitalized or die than those vaxxed. That's especially bad when we get surges of infections which overwhelm hospital icu's .We've seen the knock on effects here where very sick people with cancer, heart attacks , other illnesses requiring surgery etc begin to suffer and die unable to get proper attention because the health system is overwhelmed with covid patients.

    The COVID-19 vaccines authorized by Health Canada have proven to be very effective against infection, severe disease, hospitalization and death. NACI said it's recommending booster shots now because emerging data suggests that protection against infection is decreasing over time for those who completed a two-dose vaccine regimen.
    ."Decreasing protection against infection could contribute to increased transmission, since infected individuals may be a source of infection for others," the committee said in its report. "Therefore, a booster dose may provide more durable protection to reduce infection, transmission, and in some populations, severe disease."

    I've no reason to question their advice so I'll likely get my booster in January.
     
  12. newterp

    newterp Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jun 6, 2007
    North Potomac, MD
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yeah questioning the booster is a bit silly - questioning the profits fine no problem. But everyone loves capitalism, right?

    anyway - Hubba is in this field for a living - I feel like he has explained this ad nauseum and with great patience as to transmission, vaccines and boosters.
     
  13. burning247

    burning247 Member+

    Liverpool FC
    England
    Sep 16, 2000
    Dallas
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Questioning that boosters are needed LESS than a year after vaccination is silly? F ucking hell.
     
  14. newterp

    newterp Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jun 6, 2007
    North Potomac, MD
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well - if the efficacy of a vaccine is dropping as a function of time - which the studies are saying is the case here - why is it surprising that a booster might be needed? After all - we get the flu shot yearly (well some of us do).

    Btw - no one is mandating the booster either - that’s being left up to everyone as they see fit.
     
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  15. burning247

    burning247 Member+

    Liverpool FC
    England
    Sep 16, 2000
    Dallas
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    For now.
     
  16. bayred

    bayred Member+

    Liverpool FC
    United States
    May 28, 2018
    imo the primary drivers of this continuing virus situation in the U.S. are corrupt, self-serving political parties and their allies/supporters in the media/online who are constantly trying to create public panic and place blame to advance their own power and financial agendas.
     
  17. hubbabubba

    hubbabubba Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 17, 2002
    Ann Arbor, MI
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The reason for the booster is likely that RNA-based vaccines will always require three doses. This wasn’t tested when they were developing them as it would have delayed the ability to test for efficacy and safety - and the world needed to get these vaccines out. The need to take multiple boosters of a vaccine is actually pretty common. The vaccine against chickenpox requires two doses, and hepatitis vaccines require three.

    With regard to the omicron variant, I also agree that there has been a lot of irresponsible journalism about it, and people “losing their shit” about it won’t help anything. The truth is this “supposed” high transmission rate just isn’t proven yet. The fact is that we just don’t know much about it yet other than it has a lot of mutations in the spike protein. But it also has a lot of other mutations in the other viral proteins and those likely are not all beneficial. So I’m skeptical that it as transmissible as is being reported right now. Southern Africa has a lot of unvaccinated people, so it is not surprising that they are detecting a lot of transmission. They also did not have a lot of delta. I won’t be convinced that it really is more transmissible than delta until we see it spreading rapidly in places with a lot of delta.

    But I want to say that this outlandish talk about the omicron variant evading vaccination is a really irresponsible framing of something that is quite normal and expected when you have a virus replicating in billions of people. It is inevitable that we will see variants, and over time they will get progressively more divergent from the original virus. But it suddenly being able to escape a vaccinated immune response, not likely. Every time you raise an immune response your body generates hundreds of thousands (to millions) of different antibody producing cell lines, and then prunes these cell lines back to somewhere between ~7-20 specific cell lines that make the most effective antibodies against that pathogen. When you get a booster, this causes the amount of those antibodies in your blood stream to high levels again, and induces a new round of new cell lines with new antibodies. After that pruning back you’ll have additional new cell lines with additional new, really effective antibodies. So now you have ~14-40 antibodies, and this happens every time you are re-exposed or boosted… The likelihood that the majority of those antibody types not recognizing omicron is frankly laughable. Will it evade a few? Sure. Will that mean you are more likely to catch it and spread it to others? Possibly, but it is very likely that you won’t get very sick any way. Evidence shows that being vaccinated for SARS-CoV-2, even if you had caught it before will increase your protection 3-5x better than if you were not vaccinated. Getting boosted does the same thing for a vaccinated person. The high level of antibodies stimulated by this is only temporary though, otherwise our blood would be a sludge of antibodies instead of a fluid. It’s pretty clear that SARS-CoV-2 is going to be a seasonal virus, like influenza. So getting a booster now will induce higher antibody levels for the winter months when the virus is more likely to spread.

    Finally, this issue about people catching and spreading the virus even though they are vaccinated is common with respiratory viruses. Again, if you are vaccinated your immune response will limit virus replication and make it a lot less likely that you can spread it to others efficiently. It was actually surprising that initially in newly vaccinated people we were even seeing protection from infection was a pleasant thing. But with the beta, delta, and now omicron variants we are watching the virus evolve to better infect and replicate in humans. This along with waning antibody levels over time means it is likely that you will actually catch a head cold if you are exposed. As long as you are vaccinated, this is all that will happen. Really the problem, and why this pandemic isn’t over already, is all the boneheads that refuse to get vaccinated, and the fact that we are not mobilizing and vaccinating the third world quickly. The reason delta came from India and omicron from Africa is precisely because they were largely unvaccinated populations. We really do need to see developed countries really push to get the entire world population vaccinated ASAP.
     
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  18. burning247

    burning247 Member+

    Liverpool FC
    England
    Sep 16, 2000
    Dallas
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Thanks, Hubba. Great info, as always.

    What's your professional (??) opinion about "natural immunity?"
     
  19. hubbabubba

    hubbabubba Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 17, 2002
    Ann Arbor, MI
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It’s been shown definitively that it isn’t as good as being vaccinated. Likely because natural immunity is raising antibodies against all the viral proteins, not just the spike protein. The spike protein is really the Achilles heel of the corona virus. It’s a huge protein (which means a lot of places to raise antibodies against), and it is essential for the virus to be able to bind to cells. There are about 8-9 other proteins encoded by the virus that are responsible for replicating its genome, packaging that genome into new virus particles, etc. But most of those proteins are not exposed on the surface of the virus and so even though you raised great antibodies against them, those antibodies won’t block infection as effectively as those that bind the spike protein.
     
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  20. newterp

    newterp Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jun 6, 2007
    North Potomac, MD
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Sometimes I miss the days of lab work - the technology now to combat illnesses, create new medicines, and simply to just understand the human body is exponentially increasing it seems daily. Back when I was researching at the NIH - PCR technology had essentially exploded about 5-7 years or so before that and it was all the rage. Now you almost need a CS degree in addition to the basic BS to work in a lab. And really you probably need a graduate degree to really get any benefit (my B.S. in Physiology and Neurobiology would have only taken me so far).
     
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  21. usscouse

    usscouse BigSoccer Supporter

    May 3, 2002
    Orygun coast
    Wow, but who needs science when Fox tells us all we need to know.
     
  22. speker

    speker Member+

    May 16, 2009
    Canada
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Yep , I'll never understand why some people will take what the likes of Tucker Carlson spew as gospel rather than follow advice from their doctors .
     
  23. usscouse

    usscouse BigSoccer Supporter

    May 3, 2002
    Orygun coast
    Careful Speke, that kind of talk is heresy with some here.
    Even Fauci gets death threats from these fools.
     
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  24. hubbabubba

    hubbabubba Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 17, 2002
    Ann Arbor, MI
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Just to be clear, these are my personal (albeit well educated) observations. I'm not a MD doctor, but a PhD. My field of research is plant biology, but the molecular biology is all pretty much the same, and I teach molecular biology and cell biology to a bunch of pre-med undergrads who want to become MD doctors. Plus my wife is a virologist who has actually done some work with SARS-CoV-2 and we chat about it and the pandemic a lot over the dinner table, etc.
     
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  25. usscouse

    usscouse BigSoccer Supporter

    May 3, 2002
    Orygun coast
    T
    That is impressive. Seriously.
    But answer the question. ;)
     

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