2021 MLS Playoffs Round 2 - Conference Semis

Discussion in 'MLS Referee Forum' started by code1390, Nov 25, 2021.

  1. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Colorado Rapids vs Portland Timbers
    Dick’s Sporting Goods Park (4:30PM ET)
    REF: Ted Unkel
    AR1: Frank Anderson
    AR2: Oscar Mitchell-Carvalho
    4TH: Alex Chilowicz
    VAR: Alan Kelly
    AVAR: Jose Da Silva
     
  2. MrPerfectNot

    MrPerfectNot Member+

    Jul 9, 2011
    Denver, CO
    Club:
    Everton FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Tough sun for Portland's keeper and AR2 this afternoon on the north end of Dick's.
     
  3. Mikael_Referee

    Mikael_Referee Member+

    Jun 16, 2019
    England
    Only had the game on in the background but not impressed with Unkel - his accuracy in assessing incidents was too low and the players gradually got more irked as the half went on due to this.
     
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  4. SouthRef

    SouthRef Member+

    Arsenal
    Jun 10, 2006
    USA
    Club:
    Rangers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    First impression: that red seemed harsh
     
    rh89 repped this.
  5. Sport Billy

    Sport Billy Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 25, 2006
    What was with the added time?
    The “punch” was at 93:44.
     
  6. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The red card offence took place at 93:10, not 93:44. And it's important to point out that play wasn't restarted until 95:53, so it was a 2:43 stoppage, with about 2:28 of that being time lost that needed to be accounted for.

    Back to the beginning, though, the goal was scored around 89:39 and play didn't restart until 90:55 or thereabouts. So, nearly the entire first announced minute was already lost before the red card even happened so this was probably going to 95:00 even if nothing happened in stoppage time.

    Then there was a long delay with the ball being out of play from about 92:03 until 92:58 due to some delaying, some off-the-ball half-head butts, and a VAR check for said head butts. Another minute vanished.

    So by the time the red card rolls around, we've played 1 of the 3 allotted minutes. Then the red card followed by subs. You're now two minutes over added time but still... have basically played 1 minute and change.

    As the subs complete at 95:53, you see Chilowicz turn to Savarese and say "two," as in "we're playing two more from here." And, lo and behold, Unkel blows his whistle at 97:54--two minutes later.

    You could make an argument that they actually lost about 45 seconds they didn't acount for, but some of the delays in the 91st and 93rd minute would have been natural anyway. All in all, it was actually excellent timekeeping.
     
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  7. seattlebeach

    seattlebeach Member

    AFC Richmond
    May 11, 2015
    Not Seattle, Not Beach
    Sporting Kansas City vs Real Salt Lake
    Children’s Mercy Park (3PM ET)
    REF: Kevin Stott
    AR1: Peter Manikowski
    AR2: Cory Richardson
    4TH: Guido Gonzales Jr
    VAR: Jon Freemon
    AVAR: Jeremy Hanson

    Philadelphia Union vs Nashville SC
    Subaru Park (5:30PM ET)
    REF: Allen Chapman
    AR1: Ian Anderson
    AR2: Cameron Blanchard
    4TH: Victor Rivas
    VAR: Jorge Gonzalez
    AVAR: Chris Elliott

    Freemon is back in the booth. (I had Stott on this game on my bingo card.)
     
  8. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I know I didn’t commit fully to the Chapman prediction, but I leaned heavily that way. Looks like I’ll go four for four for the first time ever!

    Freemon is very surprising, though. The pairing with Stott, I’m sure, is by design.
     
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  9. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    RSL into the conference final after they eliminate the team who probably should have been the #1 seed after the no-handball in week 35.
     
  10. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Interesting VAR-related moment in the 35’ in Philadelphia.

    Chapman calls a free kick inches outside the attacking penalty area. Call proves to be correct but it’s truly a matter of an inch or two. Thing is, the fouled player was offside when he received the ball, just before the foul. So it VAR had moved the ball into the area, the call would have been overturned. But because it was “just” a free kick, the call stands.

    Not really earth-shattering because it’s all per protocols, but one of these days one of these free kicks is going to go in the net in a big game. And the can of worms will be opened.
     
  11. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I saw the offside on the first replay and waited for the free kick. Nothing came from it but that type of situation seems perhaps the biggest crazy var scenarios that could lead to our first changes in protocol.
     
  12. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Saw a comment about something similar earlier today. Offside not called because it was close (the VAR protocol to let it play out). Went out for a corner. Can't be VARed because it doesn't fit under one of the categories. Corner resulted in nothing but had it been a goal...
     
  13. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member+

    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    Des Moines, IA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Similar to the Man United-Chelsea game today with Ronaldo’s offside leading to a corner kick. Had MU scored on that, the calls to expand would have been long and loud……..
     
  14. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    I think CK/GK is likely to be a change—it’s almost always going to be quick and easy and can have a big impact.

    the attacking FK, though, opens much more of a slippery slope.

    Though if the semi-automatic OS system is in place for the WC, is the idea that any OS could be called through the system?
     
  15. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That must have been the game the comment was about
     
  16. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Alan Chapman KFTPM flashbacks :)
     
  17. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    So three matches and three cautions.
     
  18. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    And the red card in Colorado
     
  19. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well, yeah. But stoppage time stupidity and a forced hand there. And no yellows for the surrounding afters. Just noting we are at a 1.00 YPG stat this round with one match remaining.
     
    JasonMa repped this.
  20. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Funny how we haven't heard much coverage on this point, huh?

    The game as we know it from an officiating perspective may be changing forever starting tomorrow. And no one seems to be paying too much attention.
     
    Thegreatwar and StarTime repped this.
  21. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    One of the trickle downs I anticipate is a decline in AR quality at the levels below the top tier. Current VR certainly makes being a top flight AR less appealing, as most important decisions are completely revisited. But if video is going to essentially make all OS calls, how much appeal is left to do what it takes to be an elite AR? (Yes, I know that ARs do more than that, but sill.) Without those striving to do it, the levels below that are going to suffer.

    And does it totally change the model, too? Not so long ago, Rs and linesmen were largely interchangeable at the top tier, just as they are in grass roots. If being excellent at OS is no longer relevant, will ARs still specialize at that tier? Or will being an AR be a bit like being a 4th--how you break into the top tier.

    I agree with MR that the scope of the change here could be phenomenal--and I don't even know if we can predict all the ways it might change.

    On a separate note, has FIFA now backed itself into having to use the OS technology in Qatar, even if the trials don't go as well as anticipated?
     
  22. Mikael_Referee

    Mikael_Referee Member+

    Jun 16, 2019
    England
    On reflection, I don't think the sensationalist headlines are actually congruent with the reality on this (though there is the slippery slope argument). This video is a good explainer of the experiment at Arab Cup.

     
  23. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I watched that and had a different takeaway.

    We never hear:

    1) Whether or not all potential offside decisions are subject to this technology?
    2) Whether or not ARs are supposed to call offside as instructured, barring current VAR protocols?

    The answers to those two questions determine everything, in my opinion. If this technology is used for all potential decisions (and, honestly, why wouldn't it be?) and ARs are to further adjust how they call offside, that is HUGE news. Truly game-changing.

    If it only applies within the current VAR protocols and there is no change to AR instruction, then it's not really news at all. But, if those two things are true, it would make the technology close to pointless--it would just be about getting even more accuracy than the lines (which are already hated in some circles!).
     
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  24. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    They've been doing non-live trials for awhile. I don't think they would have done this unless they wanted to back themselves in for WC22. It's by design, not accidental.
     
  25. StarTime

    StarTime Member+

    United States
    Oct 18, 2020
    I’m sad about these “automated offside” changes.

    Might it help get a few more calls right, or speed up the VAR process? Sure.

    But it definitely seems like it’s going to be making ARs (as we know them) obsolete in the not-so-distant future. That makes me sad. I’ve kind of thought that day would always come at some point, but it’s happened a lot quicker than I expected.
     

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