Auria that's either poorly formulated or a deplorable take. The bulk of my focused sports viewing time these days is spent on women's soccer and women's basketball. If there's to be a masculinity penalty of some sort for that, I'll be happy to buy a lavender trousseau and a Dolly Parron wig, and I certainly won't at all miss associating with those who would impose such questioning. There's nothing to be proud of or about in standard american masculinity-- it is, to quote Hamlet, "more honored in the breach than the observance." There's a legit issue faced by this league, and something needs to be adjusted somehow, but I don't think creating new applications for old forms of bullying is appropriate or any sort of solution.
They're taking trophies that should deservedly go to women. They ought to be ashamed of themselves. If they're not, I see no reason not to shame them publicly. Your enjoyment of women's sports has nothing to do with what I posted, and I'm fairly certain you knew that when you replied.
And you knew that the post had jack all to do with the lawsuit between the USWNTPA and USSF. I mean I could post a really nice Chicken Vindaloo recipe, and you'd be free to ignore it if it doesn't apply to you.
Auria, you are all about objecting to a collective perception of you as "other" based on the color of your skin, and well you should be and I am side by side with you in that. And yes, on some level they probably should be aware themselves that something's not right here-- but we as a culture have been unable to clearly define exactly what, and we've been grappling with it since Renee Richards at least. But whatever it is that is not right, it is NOT that they are not Manly Men-- and shaming them on that basis is not a solution, it is part of the problem-- just as the "not the same work" argument in the lawsuit was without legs. The WNT are not Unwomanly Women pretending to be as fast and strong as men; if there's a weakness in the lawsuit, that's not it. (And Andy, I hope that sufficiently addresses the Off Topic issue. It certainly seems relevant to me-- it is not on topic in the two dimensional view, but if you pull the tacks and take that placard off the bulletin board, I think you will see that there's colorful molds growing on the cork of 3D view that still need cleaning up.) Whatever's wrong here, the masculinity of the athletes on this netball team isn't the root, though their attitude about it may or may not be-- no one seems to have spoken to their actual behaviors... And whatever their behaviors, shame them for their sportsmanship maybe, but not their sexuality. That's just another type of "otherness..." And Auria, you should have known that before you posted. (Women's college basketball programs often recruit intramural men players to provide practice opponents--IIRC the Connecticut version gets paid or gets partial scholarships or something. If these guys really want to play netball for the game itself --about which I know nothing at all-- perhaps something along these lines could be found/created to get them the opportunity? I mean, there apparently is no school team where they are because they are it, but at another school or a college? It would seem to be a constructive outlet for their interest in the sport-- that and trying to stimulate the raising of men's teams.)
This is the second post I've left in this forum that you've replied to, and on each occasion your reply was full of venom, one so much so that I still haven't forgotten it and never will. Perhaps you should practice what you're preaching here. I at least try to be kind to other posters. Richard Raskind was too old for Renee Richards to have the impact some folks thought she'd have. Besides, she went thru all the cutting and stitching and hormone reduction and whatever there was to go thru at the time. You think I define that term one way when in fact I define it another, with some things included from your assumptions. They like a game guys usually don't play. If they join a women's league and dominate it and the women complain, I'm gonna side with the women. And because they've gone out of their way to join a league they knew they could dominate, then I guess it's an all bets are off thing, and I'm not above reminding them that they like a game guys don't usually play. You're reading a lot more sociopolitics into this than I intend, and I'm far from being a dinosaur. If those women were U-whatever boys, I'd do the same thing, and this convo would not be taking place, because it's okay to shame men for playing against boys, but not for playing against women. My real point is that they have a physical advantage, and "We just wanna play" isn't an excuse to wreck a legit competition between women's teams. I do get what you're saying, tho. Yes, I do wonder what makes them choose this sport when so many other guys simply accept that it's not for them. But I don't see why sexuality (I didn't go there- you did) should play any kind of role in the choice. Any of these would be better than joining a league of lesser athletic talent that works just as hard as you do and deserves a level field.
Netball has been a popular game played by Men for 30 years or so now in Australia. Can you imagine if women had been told "its a man's game"?
It doesn't work in reverse, and it should not. We've evolved enough to stop putting women down. But I do think women should have safe spaces to participate in athlètic competition without having to worry about men barging in and stealing all the trophies.
If you treat people different you simply are not treating them equally. I find it quite dishonest to argue for equality when you actually are arguing for privilege, on the back of hating privilege. I'd like to imagine we've evolved enough to stop putting anybody down but obviously bigotry is fine as long as it is against the "right people". You can't argue 'we are the same" in this case and "we are different" in that case. If we aren't the same...we aren't the same.
The argument you are making, however, is not a legal one. In the current lawsuit, the USSF initially made a legal argument along the lines of what you are arguing. I thought it aimed at what could have been a core issue in the case and one it would have been nice to have a ruling on -- i.e., what does equal work mean when comparing men’s and women’s sports. The USSF, however, later withdrew that argument. So, at this point it looks like we are not going to get a ruling on whether the law does or does not match your opinion of what it should be.
so is this a good thing or a bad thing??? Jonathan Tannenwald @thegoalkeeper 1h U.S. Soccer and the USWNTPA have a deal to end the Federation paying the salaries of national team players in the NWSL.
Probably good for clubs as the USSF won’t be able to call players into extended camps outside FIFA windows without the permission of the teams. and probably good for player equal pay on national teams if contracts are with clubs.
How much, exactly, do you think that USSF was spending on NWSL player salaries? I mean, it's good money to probably you and me, but it's for only 20 some players, and it's hardly a dent in the annual USSF budget.
Thanks, I realize I wasn't clear enough. I believe this is just the first step, next will be the new Contracts. That is where I believe the major chunk of money will be freed up. The Women turned playing for the National Team into a career, it was never that before and hopefully wont be that going forward. It should supplement your income not be the main source of it. There is no way the pay can get adjust upward and be sustainable. However if the prizes are pooled and each team gets funded from 20% of that we can better fund the sport.
They can't. The NWSL isn't currently self sufficient. I'd imagine the USSF is going to give a lump sum amount to help keep the league going, rather than paying salaries of certain players.
It still is, it's soccer in the US. I'm hearing it may be a small lump sum payment directly to the league now.
I would love for player turnovers to become more routine like every 5 years or less as opposed to a decade or more. There are countless capable young footballers out there that also wants to represent the US but because playing for the national team is currently a career, nobody wants to leave.