2021 MLS week 30 Referee discussion

Discussion in 'MLS Referee Forum' started by MassachusettsRef, Oct 16, 2021.

  1. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think we are going to net out in the same place but our posts above make it look like we disagree.

    In theory he CAN make any decision he wants. But he also is supposed to be applying the C&O standard to red cards, pens and fouls to negate goals. Correct? Otherwise he’s just re-refereeing once he gets there. Same even goes for offside with MLS; a referee is only acting if evidence is clear enough to overturn the call on-field—he’s not making his best judgment based on the video he sees.
     
  2. incognitoind

    incognitoind Member

    Apr 8, 2015
    You’re right. I mean to say that the responsibility of determining C&O lies with the VAR. that’s what starts the review process. The referee could certainly disagree once he gets there.
     
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  3. Bubba Atlanta

    Bubba Atlanta Member+

    Mar 2, 2012
    Yep, Atlanta
    Club:
    Atlanta United FC
    TOR and ATL appeals denied.
     
  4. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    At least the appeals process in MLS is consistent and is entirely predictable.
     
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  5. GlennAA11

    GlennAA11 Member+

    Jun 12, 2001
    Arlington, VA
    does anyone keep stats on referees agreeing or disagreeing with the VAR? De Oliviera seems to disagree more than he agrees
     
  6. SouthRef

    SouthRef Member+

    Arsenal
    Jun 10, 2006
    USA
    Club:
    Rangers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I’ll try to contain my amazement
     
  7. jarbitro

    jarbitro Member+

    Mar 13, 2003
    N'Djamena, Tchad
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    So it appears that PRO is just going to let this whole thing pass into the night? PRO normally does inside video review every week, but the last one I see is from October 10. Maybe it is as simple as Barkey on vacation or something, but the Toronto one seems very strange not to have released something on, especially since appeals were made and denied--itself a very unusual turn of events. Normally PRO is able to ward off those before they are made. So on this one, the silence is weird all around. And while it could be as simple as somebody being on vacation, it does make me wonder if those in PRO leadership are not in agreement on what happened--that would explain the denied appeal. I'm just guessing.
     
  8. incognitoind

    incognitoind Member

    Apr 8, 2015
    There might be many reasons for the video to not be posted including the one you mention but I wouldn’t start suspecting anything nefarious. This video series only benefits the fans as the teams and leagues are aware of PROs interpretations long before these are aired and the officials have been given their assessments. It’s a busy time of the year and this is not the first time they have fallen behind.
     
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  9. Bradley Smith

    Bradley Smith Member

    Jul 29, 2013
    Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Inside Video Review has been posted:


    Their positions:
    • The Cincinnati vs. Orlando potential penalty incident for upper body contact: the official stance is that it should have been a penalty kick.
    • The Toronto vs. Atlanta red card incident: the official stance is that once the red cards were given, it wasn't a clear and obvious error to overturn and the referee was correct to maintain his original decision.
     
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  10. SouthRef

    SouthRef Member+

    Arsenal
    Jun 10, 2006
    USA
    Club:
    Rangers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    My earlier comment was a little snarky but after listening to the audio on this I’ll stand by it. He’s clearly not interested in what the VAR says; when Fotis explains why he sent it down his response is “yeah I’m going with a goal kick”.

    we all miss things and if we’re lucky someone gives us an out.

    To have no real interest in the lifeline offered says a lot more than missing the call does.
     
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  11. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #36 MassachusettsRef, Oct 23, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2021
    To be fair, all that audio is spliced so it’s not all happening in the exact sequence it’s always presented.

    But, to be even fairer, this is probably the best De Oliviera could look in one of these conversations. There has been much, much, much worse from him this year. And I’m not saying this was good either so consider the starting point.
     
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  12. StarTime

    StarTime Member+

    United States
    Oct 18, 2020
    On the subject of audio that rubs me the wrong way, I’m really not a fan of what Fischer had to say on the Toronto vs Atlanta review.

    He makes it pretty explicit that he does not believe the red cards were clearly wrong when he says “I think you have choices, Tim, but this one’s one that you need to see again.”

    This is exactly how VAR is NOT supposed to be used. It’s not meant to let the referee “see it again.” It’s meant to correct errors that are clear, not ones where the referee “has choices.” This isn’t acceptable from Fischer IMO.
     
  13. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Again, incomplete and non-sequential audio is going to make things look weird here. This is the problem with partial transparency or not understanding individual communication styles.

    Believe me, Fischer thinks the reds are clearly wrong. And based on what PRO had instructed earlier this year, they are. But Fischer was also aware of the match context and the fact that Ford didn’t see the play himself, which as I pointed out earlier, MIGHT lower the threshold for intervention anyway. The phrase you key on is Fischer acknowledging, at the point this turns into a conversation, that the overall match context means there is no perfect answer here even if PRO instruction around headbutts meant these were not two red cards. Fischer knows PRO doesn’t want this as two reds in a vacuum but he also knows that two reds probably best serves the game at this point.

    And I say that as someone who doesn’t think Fischer should have sent it down. But the point here is he felt obligated to do so precisely because he did believe the original decision was clearly wrong based on instruction. That’s what he’s communicating here as a colleague. Paraphrased or translated as: “I know I kind of screwed you here because I had to, but if I was in your shoes I’d probably use the wiggle room you have.”
     
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  14. StarTime

    StarTime Member+

    United States
    Oct 18, 2020
    If he, as you claim above, truly believes the reds are clear and obvious errors, why is he (as you interpret) trying to advise Ford to consider upholding them? That seems very contradictory. Your comment makes note of a lot of contextual factors that create “wiggle room”: the temperature of the match, the expectations of players, etc making red a more preferable decision. But if the red cards are clearly wrong and the players are clearly not guilty of a sending-off offense, none of these contextual factors should matter. Your interpretation suggests that Fischer was happy enough to let two players be unjustly sent off, for the sake of match control or whatever, which also shouldn’t be ok!

    Personally I think a simpler explanation is just that Fischer didn’t really consider these red cards to be clearly and obviously wrong, but recommended this review for the purpose of match control / selling the decision.
     
  15. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Okay. I’m know you’re not trying to be combative but the other thread is annoying me so I’ll just stop here and say your second paragraph is wrong. That’s not what happened at all.

    The first paragraph has a lot to do with the point of VAR, when to follow instruction rigidly and how to manage a match as a referee. It’s not the VAR’s job to get in a pitched battle and fight for his position. Just as an AR doesn’t insist but he assists. You’re focused on a very specific snippet where Fischer is having a human conversation with the referee and not being a robot. It’s actually probably the best portion of the interaction. But out of context it can make you think that Fischer wasn’t doing his job correctly, which is unfortunate.
     
  16. StarTime

    StarTime Member+

    United States
    Oct 18, 2020
    That’s fair, I guess it doesn’t make sense for Fischer to go full-on “defense lawyer” mode about his views on the play. The statement still rubs me the wrong way a bit the partial context does have the potential to obscure these things.

    Godspeed in the Frei thread :)
     
  17. jarbitro

    jarbitro Member+

    Mar 13, 2003
    N'Djamena, Tchad
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm glad Pro handled both those plays with Inside Video Review. I was wrongly suspicious earlier on the thread.

    Olivera, who I really do like as a referee, should probably realize that his interaction with VAR is the weakest part of his game. I wonder almost if somebody just needs to explain that to him. Like: "Hey, you are a good referee, and PRO has a future for you in MLS, especially with retirements and what not, but the VAR aspect of your game is killing you, and it really does need to be fixed...going forward, your starting point with VAR is that the guy is not trying to cheat you..."
    I know that would be hard for him, because I do think that he fell victim to some bad send-downs earlier in VAR--almost like VAR was trying to hamstring him; and I think he assumes his ability to ignore it is a strength. So maybe he just needs a wake up call.
    It's like the opposite of Stott. Stott, early on in VAR, had some interesting send downs when he was the R, and rather than saying "hey, I'm the most experienced ref in MLS history, I don't need some glorified fourth doing this to me," he always responds with kindness and teamwork, and the result is that despite being arguably the best, he (somehow) has become even better with VAR. I hope someone gets a hold of Olivera, because it would be a shame to lose him because he can't handle that part of the game.
     
  18. rh89

    rh89 Member

    Sep 29, 2015
    OR
    If PRO hasn't already had that conversation with him, that's terrible management. Further, I disagree with you that he's a good referee. If my memory serves, every VAR send down was correct and he has been ruled as wrong to ignore them. So that means that not only is he missing KMI's in real time, but he's not a team player. I'm frankly surprised PRO has kept him around and assume it's due to overall shortages.
     
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  19. StarTime

    StarTime Member+

    United States
    Oct 18, 2020
    I’m also really quite surprised about this incident. Surely PRO has had that conversation with him about having to be more open with VAR, so to see yet another review (and, frankly, a pretty easy/clear one at that) pass him by is really quite surprising. I would have thought that he would be feeling pressure to be more open to changing his decision. Maybe he is worried about overcorrecting by overthinking these instructions. Still though, this decision seems, it’s such a clear striking foul. It almost feels like career suicide by refusing to change his decision on plays like this especially after (presumably) it’s been something PRO has talked to him about already.
     
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  20. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member+

    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    Des Moines, IA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    When Kevin Stott eventually retires, FIFA could do a lot worse than hiring him as a VAR Svengali of sorts to work with member organizations to improve how they are using VAR. One of those areas for improvement would be exactly what you're talking about here. Coaching referees like de Olivera about how to communicate and interact more effectively with VAR would be a great way for him to add value to the process after he's done with on-field duty.

    I don't think it's a stretch to say that Stott is on the very short list of the best referees in the world in terms of utilizing VAR effectively. He needs to educate others on how to improve VAR administration.
     
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  21. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    PRO has supported him more often than not. The major incidents I can think of off the top of my head where they did not are this penalty decision and one from a year or two ago where he correctly gave a missed penalty but failed to give a SFP red.

    EDIT: I think there was one more where they wanted him to send off Feilhaber for VC, but it was significantly closer to the borderline of clear and obvious than either of the above two examples.
     

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