Is there a way to compare how many shots each faces (comparatively)? I feel that that Turner is a better shot stopper but also will face more shots because his clearances put the ball back in play to the other team. Steffen may help to create more offense too which could be quite important for our low scoring bunch. The apples to apples part would make this hard with different leagues and teams faced with the national team.
The guy I think would have stopped the CR goal is Horvath because he is good at making himself big. It's almost terrifying to think Horvath is on the bench in Championship when I watch some of the goal keeping week in week out in top 5.
I had a prob with Freidel for this and his arrogance and his tendency to create more saves for himself with dumb rebounds - but that became chronic as goalkeeping has evolved. "Back in the day" keepers were taught and expected and did make spectacular reaction saves while being nevertheless expected to catch and hold the ball; failing that turn shots judiciously and carefully around a post or over the bar, or parry the ball safely. (You can learn to parry the ball strategically even in the gap of miliseconds - and I still see keepers go unrecognized for that, deliberately knocking a ball out to a fullback's feet or kick-saving to start a counter.) Friedel was one of those front foot "aggressive" keepers - in his stance, not command of the box and area around it - and IMO like a lot of those keepers he'd knock the ball right back into trouble. And rather than getting benched he'd be applauded for a second or third save heroics before picking it out of the net. Seemed to reflect something going on his head. But no one can deny his career in Europe, esp his England years.
Friedel improved his ability to control his box as time went on and he was never as poor at it as Turner. Find me a clip of Friedel letting someone head a ball two steps in front of him and a yard off the goal line. I'm not anti-Turner and I think the starting role is an open debate. But it is absurd to think we shouldn't expect a goalie to control his 6-yard box or that pointing out when someone fails to do so is somehow overly demanding. It's not the end of the world; it was just one goal. But it was a mistake and one that his play shows is not unlikely to happen again so obviously it is part of the discussion.
I've been back and forth with Turner's ceiling and Steffen's floor. I've been more positive with Turner's foot skills but I am again seeing a ceiling that is too low for my taste. Likewise, Steffen's inconsistency is a product of his ManCity status but I was hoping to see him develop out of it. He hasn't.
Yeah, IMO our keeper's might rise to the occasion, might not. Turner's been a great surprise, but overall we don't have a Keller/Freidel/Meola scenario here, or even a Howard/Guzan/Hahnemann thing, IMO.
I think Steffen (and maybe Turner) are every bit as good if not better than Meola. And the expectations for how keepers play today is a lot different than in Meola's time. Hard to compare them on foot skill ability.
Never wanted to like Meola, and always rated Keller much higher than him, but he was very good. Yeah the game's changed, as I mentioned above I'm not necessarily more impressed with current goalkeeping. But you know Meola had good feet, right? He was a pretty good field player. From what I can see, Meola and Rimando were better with their feet than Steffen.
I feel like we’ll get a better sense of how Steffen compares to the previous generation if/when he leaves Man City when we see what level of club he ends up with. Similarly with Turner we’ll what level of club tries to sign him in January and if he ends up going anywhere.
Interesting conversation in another thread. One poster acknowledges that Turner has been giving up a bunch of goals lately, but then goes on to say maybe it doesn't matter has he has been so good with the USMNT. Another poster then claimed that both goals given up last night were good goals and mean nothing for Turner. Anyways, the goals are at 2;20 and 6:50 of the highlights. Turner also had a number of saves throughout the game.
With #3 goalkeepers having a 0.001% chance of playing in a 2-3 game WCQ window, Horvath having disappeared once again, Ochoa sold us out for El Tri, Marcinkowski nothing too special, MLS vets like Johnson/Hamid/Guzan having no shot to ever overtake our top two... why not call up Gabriel Slolina?
Turner is my first choice, but no point in either guy being "frustrated or upset" unless they can actually raise their level to become the undisputed #1 and make the coach's decision for them... not criticizing, you want players to feel that way (see also Hoppe at GC). After starting the #USMNT’s first five 2022 World Cup qualifiers, Matt Turner was “frustrated and upset” not to play against Costa Rica. He also respects coach Gregg Berhalter’s decision. More here: https://t.co/gd8sJ4A5AW— Doug McIntyre (@ByDougMcIntyre) October 22, 2021
Headline is misleading. Here’s the full quote: Gregg told me the day before the game," Turner said. "I feel like I was able to express my frustration and disappointment, but in a way that I was also respecting the decision he made. "Obviously, Zack is a great goalkeeper. From there, my job is to make Zack feel the best he possibly can for the game so that we win. The opportunity to represent our country is bigger than all of us as individuals. You have a responsibility to put your best foot forward in whatever role you’re given." From my limited experience, athletes/teams at high levels are really unrealistic about how good they are. And you kind of need that confidence to really succeed. It makes perfect sense that Turner would be upset to be pulled when he had been doing so well in terms of keeping the ball out of the net. It would be kind of weird for a guy to be content to sit on the bench. Seems like he’s handling it well, though.
Of course he would be upset and disappointed. In fact we would be very alarmed if he wasn't! Athletes at this level, regardless of the sport, are highly competitive and want to be on the field of play. In sports most every good player gets playing time. With two exceptions. The keeper in soccer and the QB in football just don't rotate much at all. So much of how the play is based on continuity. They typically don't change them unless they are injured or aren't performing.
I think our history with Friedel and Keller shows you just how ugly competition can get between two candidates for the #1 position without becoming a total liability. I'm guessing we're nowhere near that point yet. Though I think those two really tested the limits of that. See this article during the 2001 Hex for example about Arena's rotation between the two keepers. http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/soccer/national/2001-08-31-goalkeepers.htm (Keller strongly implies there that Friedel pressured Arena into giving the latter GK starts by threatening to quit the national team if he didn't, and Keller for his part aired a lot of dirty laundry to the press that I really doubt we'd tolerate these days.)
Posting this just to see what kind of responses it gets... A helpful guide to the #USMNT goalkeeper discussion. pic.twitter.com/o6qAOPUSXO— Justin Moran (@kickswish) October 23, 2021
Reasonable summary IMO with one really big exception. I hardly give Turner the best for positioning? He sits on his line. How is that the best?
How I rate keepers: Consistency/Reliability (not error prone): Most Critical Turner: B Steffen: C Johnson: C Guzan: B Horvath: C Positioning (includes Concentration): Critical Turner: A - Steffen: A - Johnson: B - Guzan: B Horvath: B - Shot-Stopping (Reflexes and Range): Critical Turner: A + Steffen: A Johnson: A Guzan: C + Horvath: A Handling (doesn’t give up rebounds and can handle aerial clearances): Critical Turner: A - Steffen: A Johnson: C Guzan: A Horvath: C + Leadership (Experience, Decision-Making, Command, Communication, Influence): Critical Turner: B Steffen: B Johnson: B Guzan: A + Horvath: D Physical Presence (size, aggressiveness, range, and speed off the mark): Very important Turner: B Steffen: A Johnson: A - Guzan: A Horvath: B - Distribution (Vision, Foot skills, throwing, kicking): Nice to have Turner: C - Steffen: B + Johnson: C + Guzan: C + Horvath: C +
For reference.... peak Howard, Friedel, and Keller. edit: let me add Meola 1. Consistency/Reliability Howard: A - Friedel: A - Keller: A + Meola: B 2. Positioning Howard: C Friedel: A Keller: A + Meola: B + 3. Shot-Stopping Howard: A + Friedel: A Keller: A - Meola: B + 4. Handling Howard: A+ Friedel: A++ Keller: A Meola: B + 5. Leadership Howard: A Friedel: A - Keller: A + Meola: A++ 6. Physical Presence Howard: A++ Friedel: A+ Keller: B Meola: B - 7. Distribution Howard: B + Friedel: B - Keller: B - Meola: C +
Turner plays the angles on shots incredible well. There was a video floating somewhere, but his shot stopping is so strong because of the angles+his footwork/positioning at the point of striking the ball. So I think that is what they are referring to. Horvath is definitely the most loveable, so I give the breakdown an A+.
#USMNT prospect Gabriel Slonina made 5 saves (3 from inside the box) to help #CFFC to a 1-0 win over #RSL tonight.4 clean sheets in 9 appearances for the 17-year-old, big future 🇺🇲 pic.twitter.com/nLrCkgj9LR— Chris Smith (@Chris_SXI) October 24, 2021