Indeed. You gave yourself an out at the end there. Steffen was getting caps Pre-COVID against a higher level of competition. Brazil, France, Colombia, etc. etc. Turner has only ever played against CONCACAF teams. That's not Turner's fault. Turner was really good in Gold Cup 2021. Steffen, though, was really good at Gold Cup 2019. Folks might not remember this. Steffen and the USMNT didn't even concede a goal at Gold Cup 2019 until the final against Mexico. Worth noting that the USMNT hasn't actually lost a match that Zack Steffen started since the game against Canada in 2019. That loss wasn't his fault. The entire USMNT played poorly that day (just like Turner's recent start against Panama). Anyway, I think this Turner versus Steffen debate keeps going around in circles because there's no right answer. Its a very close call. So the USMNT coach should just go with whomever is in better form at the time. Right now that seems to be Turner.
Blueprint for arguing on the internet: 1. Cast any real evidence or facts counter to your position as biased 2. Cast any opinion counter to your position as not understanding the complete picture or not understanding the subtleties of the topic - so ignore completely 3. Cast yourself as an unbiased arbiter of the facts, the only person able to understand the nuances of what's happening in front of everyone .............. 4. Profit?
Bringing up an excuse from 2019? 2 years ago? Steffen is barely getting any minutes for his club now. At least try to bring up excuses for recent results.
There is no obvious answer one way or the other and we shouldn't act like there is. And before we go on with "OMG THEN WHAT IS THE POINT OF DISCUSSION" it's mode about recognizing that there are strengths that one has over the other and vice versa. Sure one advantage might be bigger than the other's advantage, but there's more nuance here than we think. Does Turner stop that scuffed shot against Costa Rica? Maybe, maybe not. Does Steffen punch out that Panama corner? Maybe, maybe not. But to say with absolute certainty that keeper X would have made the play has a bit of hindsight to it. Sure, I prefer Turner right now, but I'm not married to it. I don't know what goes on in trainings. I don't know the meetings they have with their keeper coaches and with Berhalter. And again, to risk the ire of the "then what is the point of discussion boards" people, how could I say with absolute certainty than x over y is definitely right or wrong? This is not a Jonathan Lewis vs Tim Weah debate, it's much closer closer that.
I think it has been interesting to see how people start arguing and to prove their point they decide they must paint there guy as an absolute superstar when the facts are both these guy are pretty weak.
What the pro-Turner crowd hasn't answered thoughtfully is Berhalter's rationale for starting Steffen in WCQ Game 6 v Costa Rica, when ... Turner had been playing lights out for club (for years) and country (all summer, Gold Cup & WCQs); Turner had established a solid defensive partnership, first with the Gold Cup players, then a more recent partnership with the Nations League players - now all mixed together. Turner had given up very few goals along the way, no really bad goals, with the Panama goal being partly his fault but with plenty of blame to go around (Zardes, of course, but other players in the vicinity). Coaches, players (and fans) strongly prefer stability in the GK position, and Turner had started 11 games in a row. Turner himself seems stable, a guy you can count on not to give up a soft goal. Nevertheless, Berhalter decided to go with Steffen in a must-win WCQ. Why? Steffen hadn't played regularly 'in forever,' one EFL Cup match in September, against vastly inferior opposition (against whom Steffen conceded an early, questionable goal), and the Community Shield game in early August, where he played well but the team lost, 1-0. That's it - two club matches and zero MNT appearances - since he bowed out of the Nations League game v Mexico (leading to the dear-departed Horvath's heroics). Whatever could Berhalter have been thinking? {A separate question, not suitable for this thread, is WTF can Pep Guardiola be thinking, letting this 'Calamity Jane,' a mediocre MLS GK, anywhere near his team?} But seriously, what do these two coaches see in Steffen that so many here fail to see?
I see a couple of lines of thought, and both or either could have applied: Most fans hate it, but Berhalter does like to give players minutes and chances. He likes to keep his bench engaged, keep things fair, etc. Perhaps this is a man management move -- Steffen "lost" his spot to injury, and perhaps this was a calculated risk to get him minutes, get him time with players (which will be good if Turner gets hurt) and let him show his stuff. Steffen is better than Turner at several things. He's more of a sweeper, and generally has good instincts coming off his line. He's not great in the air, but if you want a keeper claiming, he's better than Turner. And he's absolutely better with his feet and distribution, even if he makes errors. Turner can throw but he's not hitting the passes with his feet Steffen can. So yeah, Steffen has some positives. For me, he's behind Turner because Turner is a shot stopping savant and I don't trust Steffen. He seems to be consistently error-prone. Not horrifically, but enough in that a dude who should be a great shot stopper is not, and who should be a very good distributor still makes disastrous errors. There's no doubt that Pep and Berhalter weigh the distribution aspect more than most fans. Hell, half the fanbase here still thinks we shouldn't be building out of the back (or are we past that?). I think the Berhalter discussion, by the way, if far different than the club discussion. Steffen is mostly likely at City, because he has all the tools to be amazing. He has the skillset to be great with his feet, which City needs, and he has the tools to be a phenomenal shot stopper. He needs experience, focus, etc. If you are City, you can buy him cheap, develop him on the bench and put him in if he develops or sell him. They didn't buy him necessarily to even compete with Ederson, and I think people need to realize that. He's an effective and affordable backup that fits their style. It's not like Bravo was a Man City level keeper for the last 5 years there but for some reason people act like Steffen is the keeper equivalent of Kevin de Bruyne. Turner developed much later and is just getting noticed. Man City isn't buying him because they can find keepers who can also distribute. But him not being in Europe should not be a knock on his overall quality -- the dude is absurd stopping shots. But a lot of teams want someone who can play with their feet, and if you haven't noticed, most teams don't like to pay for keepers. I suspect he will move, and his distribution will exclude some teams. But the whole Man City thing is a terrible argument here. I'd pick Turner not because I think he's far and away above Steffen. I just don't trust Steffen. I know people will argue all day that goal isn't on him ... but that's exactly what happens to Steffen all the time. And the lack of club play doesn't help that. You see it with Man City as well.
On playing out of the back... I’m not a fan when a team is high pressing. That’s when you clear it and break on the counters.
You still need an accurate pass to clear that ball if you want to go on a counter. Does Turner hoof that ball into a 50/50, or does he try to pinpoint pass that up to Weah, Aaronson, etc?
Our problem is that we don't have a target man anywhere and we've been TERRIBLE gathering the second ball. It's the biggest argument for a Dike/Pefok call-up. There's been a couple of good moments with Pefok and Pepi dropping it off for Pulisic, but that's it. We're really bad at going over the top. I'd press the hell out of us as well. We're not great against a defense sitting back, but it is still more of a matter of time. You can force us into errors and even control the ball if you make us try to go route one.
That all depends on expectations. Relative to what we have had in the past and compared to the field player now populating the system, they are weak. One has no experience outside MLS and has major holes in his game and the other is a backup going on two years of barely seeing the field in Europe. That's a step below not only our past goalkeepers but our current field players as well. I mean sure, in a general sense they are good players, all pros and anyone even in consideration for our national team is "good." But, for a top 20 international team, they are a step behind and goal will be one of the weaker areas on the field for this team.
Even against Costa Rica... although all the pundits were talking about how pretty we were playing... aside from Musah, did you notice how many players had poor first touches? I did. Any decent team would have crushed us. But Costa Rica was playing scared and let us off the hook.
We definitely still looked like we played super tight and had way too many close calls against an ancient and completely overmatched CR team. But winning covers over ALL cracks. All we can hope for is that this young team learned and will get better.
One reason why whole schools of keepers don't play like that. But I hear ya, it's the kind of header scenario that haunts non-keeper defenders too. Check the goals from the last Italy/Spain match. Sometimes you gotta play the shitty hand you're dealt, but it's going to be on you if you can't make the play. A starting keeper for a good World Cup team should make all the easy plays and basic saves and then be counted on for something ass-saving and extraordinary on a fairly regular basis. That's never been Steffen in my view. So it's funny that I don't hear people who like to fault Berhalter get so wildly worked up about his preference for Steffen - because his preference for Zach seems to be about getting a crazy inexperienced US national team to play like Man City or some other Champions League contender. GB's game evolves, but that still seems to be his ambition. And it just might be overcomplicated. I'm a major fan of keepers with field player skills - going back at least to Thomas N'Kono. Steffen doesn't have those skills and what he is able to add in the area isn't a crucial advantage. Now I wasn't upset with Steffen getting his homecoming game in Columbus. Seems kinda smart from a man management perspective, keeping Steffen in the rotation and both keepers pushing for the spot. But it's just the sort of arrogant, risky, too-clever-by-half move thing Berhalter would get roasted for if Steffen was an MLS guy. It's pretty obvious though that the reason GB's Steffen preference won't draw much ire is because it aligns with the Euro bias Gregg and the rest of us all kind of have (oo! He's sits on Man City's bench!) but especially the quite flammable US fans on the internet.
You know how keepers sometimes watch the ball slowly go by them when there's an unexpected deflection? An unexpected non-deflection is not really any different. It doesn't mean the keeper forgot how to play soccer - it means that the keeper can only go one direction at a time, can only be in one place at once, and is not Neo in the Matrix. Looks like roughly a third of a second between when the ball passes Moya and when it crosses the line? Even before you subtract the minimum human reaction time, that doesn't leave much time for foot-shuffling.
It is possible that Berhalter had always planned to play Steffen for the third game of the window independent of anything Turner. It’s also possible he was responding to Turner’s play against Panama, but it’s impossible to know unless he says anything.
I think you are putting too much in GAA. That really only matter (in Turner's case) in a larger sample size, and more importantly, with a CONSISTANT defensive lineup in front of him. To a lesser extent, how the midfield operates also dictates how many chances on goal the opposition gets... A better indicator would be "saves made" over a stretch of games, or something similar.
https://www.mancity.com/citytv/mens/pep-guardiola-man-city-burnley-premier-league-reaction-63769989 Steffen with a clean sheet today.
Appreciation tweet for Zack Steffen who has only conceded 6 goals in 15 appearances at City. He deserves so much more praise— . (@Blue_BRC20) October 16, 2021 Granted it’s Man City but 6 goals in 15 game is pretty decent…
It’ll be interesting if and when he tries to move what level of club will be interested in him. I’ll be very curious to see how the market rates him.
Same. Interesting note: There are some Man City fans on social media who actually prefer Steffen to Ederson. They think he's a better shot stopper and value that over all the fancy feet stuff. How the turntables! 1449413850797850625 is not a valid tweet id 1449414134102167564 is not a valid tweet id 1449443159264612356 is not a valid tweet id
Indeed. Of course the task is different for Man City than with the USMNT. The task at Man City (like yesterday) is to do nothing for 89 minutes.................and then make that important save or two when needed. There's a very different narrative in the UK about Steffen than in the US. Basically, what you hear Man City media types and fans say is that they now have the best backup they've had in the Guardiola era. Which is a little bit damning with faint praise. But its true. Claudio Bravo, by the way. Two time Copa America winner. Two-time Copa America Goalkeeper of the Tournament. Two-time La Liga champion (La liga goalkeeper of the year in 2014/2015). Champions League winner. Club World Cup winner. The list goes on. The Man City folks prefer Steffen over Bravo (of course he wasn't in his prime at City). They just feel that while he's not as good with the ball at his feet as Ederson (who is?).........................the guy can be counted on to make the tough save when needed. Guardiola only has good things to say for him and his progress. He feels like he's developed a lot over the last couple of years. Let's not forget that Steffen hasn't hit his prime and is actually YOUNGER than Matt Turner. It doesn't seem that way because he's been in the limelight a lot longer. He's only 26. He was younger than any player in Costa Rica's starting XI in the recent WCQer. 'Steffen is a much better goalkeeper now' - Pep praise perfectly timed for under-pressure USMNT ace (msn.com) Zack Steffen shows why he is a Claudio Bravo upgrade that Man City and Pep Guardiola can rely on (msn.com)
Thoughts on those two goals 1. Tough shot here for sure. But when the ball is played to the far edge of the 6 Turner steps backwards onto his goal line. I would rather see him take a step toward the position the ball is headed to to cut down the angle. Yes that gives him less reaction time but I think overall its better keeping. 2. Soft goal on this one. Yes its a hard shot but once again he is just too dang tight to his line and too far left. That was poor positioning IMO. This has been said before by numerous posters. Part of why Turner makes these highlight reel reaction saves is because he doesn't put himself in a position to take the angle away in the first place. I love his reaction times. And I have no problem with him starting for the us. But the unabashed love he gets compared to the crapping on Steffen is just not accurate reflection of their skills.