Coaching Philosophies and the Gregg Berhalter System

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by Susaeta, Mar 14, 2019.

  1. deejay

    deejay Member+

    Feb 14, 2000
    Tarpon Springs, FL
    Club:
    Jorge Wilstermann
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    Berhalter chose to use the backups in Panama and he was roasted for it by many. However, the elephant in the room that nobody addresses - not the pundits, not Twitter and certainly not BigSoccer - is that three games per window is a change from previous iterations. We don't really know how big and the different teams have adapted different strategies.

    We all should really ask the question if the new format means a different choice from the established wisdom of previous iterations. We can all have different answers but since nobody asks that question I roll my eyes at a lot of comments.

    Data points to consider before asking that question:
    1) We lost Pulisic and Reyna to injuries in qualifiers.
    2) Could we have scored on Costa Rica if we played more starters against Panama
    3) How would we be in the next round if McKennie and Adams were also lost to injury.
    4) How much would an extra point in Panama be worth.
    4) How much would an extra 3 points in Panama be worth.
     
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  2. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    To me, the only really incorrect perspective on window rotation is one that is made with complete and utter certainty that the outcome is best.

    I can see the argument that you ride your horses until they can't run, and then rotate them then. And I can see the argument to protect the home points. And I can see the argument for blending the lineups. And I can see the argument for putting our best on the hardest game and our weakest on the easiest and so on.

    But the only strategy we ever get to test out is what Berhalter uses. And when we get a so-so outcome, like we did, we don't have definitive answers on anything.

    It's an interesting debate; I just struggle with how anyone is certain they are right about it.
     
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  3. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Think how painful it must be for the rest of the team.
     
  4. dams

    dams Member+

    United States
    Dec 22, 2018
    I guess my argument would be that our player pool is deep enough now that if we were properly managed that we should be able to successfully rotate and overcome injuries just fine That we actually should have an advantage now in the three game windows with our deeper pool.

    If you think our player pool is still too young and/or over rated, that is fine and we can agree to disagree. My personal feeling is that, relative to most of CONCACAF, we have a significant edge in both talent and depth.
     
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  5. deejay

    deejay Member+

    Feb 14, 2000
    Tarpon Springs, FL
    Club:
    Jorge Wilstermann
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    What debate? How many posts have there been on this topic in BigSoccer? How often do you see it in Twitter? Podcasts?

    We should start by recognizing that this issue exists and Berhalter has made choices with this issue in mind. Never mind being definitive.
     
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  6. dspence2311

    dspence2311 Member+

    Oct 14, 2007
    The point is critical thinking, which means asking questions that step outside the frame of “fans must support all the coach’s decisions.” E.g.,

    Look up any teaching or coaching resource (book or online) and see what it teaches about the basic role of an attacking midfielder. Ask yourself how well Lleget fits that definition.

    Or ask Google for stats on attacking midfielders in MLS, and look only at the data for American nationals. Find Lleget in those rankings.

    If your instinctive response is not to do that but instead something like “man, you’re obsessed with Lleget,” congratulations. The Internet has killed your capacity to discuss tactics (and probably to think critically) dead.
     
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  7. deejay

    deejay Member+

    Feb 14, 2000
    Tarpon Springs, FL
    Club:
    Jorge Wilstermann
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    Nobody hear has ever said that. Not one. Every single poster has criticized some decision of Berhalter's. Every single one. So I stopped reading the rest of the post.
     
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  8. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    Rotation? It's a pretty common debate, but maybe we are talking about other things?

    I see a lot of people blasting the Panama lineup as if it wasn't an intentional rotation. They may not be acknowledging that it is a rotation discussion, but it is.
     
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  9. deejay

    deejay Member+

    Feb 14, 2000
    Tarpon Springs, FL
    Club:
    Jorge Wilstermann
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    I am saying that we need to address the three game window more often.
     
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  10. dspence2311

    dspence2311 Member+

    Oct 14, 2007
    Why would you assume that is an attempt to characterize you? Or anyone in particular here? You are working to avoid the point being made.
     
  11. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
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  12. ChrisSSBB

    ChrisSSBB Member+

    Jun 22, 2005
    DE
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Three game window is a new animal. I suspect the staff not only looks at what load the players have had coming into camp and during the camp but what they might experience after leaving and back at their clubs. We need to qualify but we also want the eventual 23 to still be up and running by the time November '22 rolls around. It is nuts what these players are going through and will continue to be that way.
     
  13. Cynical US fan

    United States
    Mar 30, 2017
    Boston
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Come on, you don’t have all your field players in the box when defending a corner kick!? Also, Zardes is prone to making weird errors with his head or body. Just another reason for him being coached (Berhalter is a coach isn’t he?) to stay out of the way.
     
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  14. tomásbernal

    tomásbernal Member+

    Sep 4, 2007
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Zardes didn't make a weird error on that goal. He attempted to get to the ball first (and/or block the headed shot) and instead it deflected into the goal (instead of going far post where it was intended by the Panama player). I don't have any idea why the US set up on the 6 yard box and allowed 3 Panama players to remain goal side unchallenged whe the corner was played. If that's Berhalter's decision then it's completely nonsensical. If it wasn't, then the field players (including Zardes) are at great fault for making such basic errors. And Turner's fault for not yelling at them to get goal side before the corner was taken. The fact that it all went down like it did makes me think that Berhalter asked them to do that for whatever reason that I can't begin to understand.
     
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  15. Honore de Ballsac

    Oct 28, 2005
    France.
    Yup and by extension we might even understand this as another reason for developing some domestic players we can call on. That should be part of our agenda, even though Europe is crowning and snapping up some of our brightest at an increasing rate and younger age.

    One obvious reason:
    MLS clubs, for the most part, want their players to be capped by the US.* It's often less taxing for them, w/ games in this hemisphere. And there's a better trade-off for MLS teams and players than for the Chelseas and Pulisics of the world. We want our best to stay in peak condition and great standing with their clubs. If I was thinking about calling up Sargent to maybe play in Panama and maybe some spot duty in Columbus, it would probably be smarter to give Gyasi some games, and tell Josh to go be his best for Norwich. (Not to mention the stuff about Gyasi scoring more and having a different profile.)

    And this is just one reason I think that "most minutes" graphic from Fox is not just silly, it deliberately plays into a misleading argument.

    *Maybe other countries uh not so much - I bet Columbus was glum about Zelarayan declaring for Armenia!
     
  16. xbhaskarx

    xbhaskarx Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    United States
    Feb 13, 2010
    NorCal
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Just gonna leave these two comments here for no reason...

    Today:
    Oct 2:
     
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  17. tomásbernal

    tomásbernal Member+

    Sep 4, 2007
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Right. :rolleyes:

    It's possible to understand that the coach can do wrong and also think that he might have been wily enough to pull a move like this.
     
    Honore de Ballsac repped this.
  18. ifsteve

    ifsteve Member+

    Manchester United
    United States
    Jul 7, 2013
    MS and ID
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The only reason I could see aligning to defend a corner that way is if you expect your keeper to attack the ball using his reach advantage. Fewer players in the way near post. BUT since everybody in the world knows that Turner is way more a stay at home keeper I also am at a total loss.
     
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  19. ChrisSSBB

    ChrisSSBB Member+

    Jun 22, 2005
    DE
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    sure
     
  20. ChrisSSBB

    ChrisSSBB Member+

    Jun 22, 2005
    DE
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It was zonal defending which can be good, or... Gives Turner more room to grab high balls which he is generally good at. Panama did a great job whipping in dangerous corners all night. Zardes is in there because of his size and is decent with his head. Slight deflection and just enough to go off Gyasi's head and in. I never was much of a fan of zonal defending on corners but it can work and plenty of teams use it. They were obviously coached to line up that way. As far as somebody going on about CF's not defending corners, that is just someone not paying attention. Heck, Ibra used to defend corners.
     
  21. tomásbernal

    tomásbernal Member+

    Sep 4, 2007
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Thanks. So it was a coaching decision that has precedence. In such a zonal defense on a corner, are defenders expected to allow attackers to be goal-side, particularly in front of the near post, and ignore that?
     
  22. Maximum Optimal

    Maximum Optimal Member+

    Jul 10, 2001
    #5772 Maximum Optimal, Oct 15, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2021
    A bit on rotation in the last round:

    Mexico used 20 different players as starters
    The United States also used 20
    Canada used 17

    Other teams used fewer.

    I believe the above are the three best and deepest teams. So it would make sense they would rotate their starting lineups the most.

    Obviously this is just one very simple way of measuring rotation. Mexico didn't go heavily into a B lineup the way we did against Panama. But they did spread out the starts like we did.

    In terms of inferring causality, we have to be careful.

    It may appear that rotation is causing success.

    But really a deep and talented squad causes success, with rotation being part of how a deep and talented squad is used to achieve success.

    There is one interesting conclusion I hadn't thought about before. The other teams do NOT want to face one of the better teams in the third game of a window. The superior depth of the better teams comes into play in that third game. Those teams are already better to start with, but their depth allows them to increase their advantage in the third game.

    Look at matchday 3 in the first window: Canada beats El Salvador 3-0, we beat Honduras 4-1, Mexico ties Panama in Panama 1-1.

    Then matchday 6: we beat an exhausted Costa Rican team, Canada beats Panama 4-1, Mexico beats El Salvador 2-0

    This consideration reveals a hidden advantage for Jamaica in its remaining schedule. They are the only team that will not have to face the United States, Mexico or Canada in the third match of the last two windows.
     
  23. ChrisSSBB

    ChrisSSBB Member+

    Jun 22, 2005
    DE
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It seemed weird for an in-swinging corner and I think would have called for more presence near post. I think there was some rigidity on our part and Panama took advantage.
     
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  24. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The most minutes graphics is simply facts. You can choose to create a misleading argument around it or not. What the minutes said to me is we did not seriously look at other alternatives at the level of those 2nd tier players!

    The minutes for Arriola, Lletget, Yueill, and Roldan could and should have been split up amongst several other players. Many of those players play in MLS and have done as well as or in some cases better those four over the last almost 3 years of GB's tenure. Williamson, Busio, Dotson, Picault, Clark, Canouse along with YA's DLT, Green, and Niko.

    If Lletget has say 1,000 minutes and the other 800 is split between trying DLT, Green, and Dotson it would not be so confounding. Similarly with Roldan. You know exactly what you get from him the first 20 Caps, look at a Dotson, Picault, or Clark. You can always come back to Roldan when you need to.
     
  25. dspence2311

    dspence2311 Member+

    Oct 14, 2007
    The defenses of Lletget and Roldan are just that: arguments constructed to defend what already is. No one faced other putting together the best national team from the available player pool would have chosen either player. And very few coaches, perhaps none, will look at this last window and retain them on the squad given the available player pool. But we have the coach we have, and his hollow claims regarding experience and familiarity with the system and leadership apparently resonate with a lot of fans.
     

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