The All-Encompassing Pro/Rel Thread on Soccer in the USA

Discussion in 'Soccer in the USA' started by bigredfutbol, Mar 12, 2016.

  1. Expansion Franchise

    Chattanooga FC
    United States
    Apr 7, 2018
    Honestly not sure where you’re going with this. In pro/rel systems, the ownership has consequences for bad decisions. In MLS, they really don’t. Coaches and GMs might, but as @Paul Berry pointed out, they have really good odds at landing somewhere else.

    QUOTE="Phenix, post: 40003084, member: 340629"]
    Nope.
    [/QUOTE]
    Then, please tell us what was the quote about.

    Literally Don Garber’s words about the subject of this thread.

    So, instead, they should be rewarded with permanent membership in the top division, despite being run so badly as to be 3rd division, and hiring a proud fascist as their manager.
    Hahaha, Newcastle upon Tyne. Veritable Paris of the Northeast.

    Every Premier League team but two has billionaire owners and Birmingham is a bigger city than Manchester.
    Except those oil barons can’t field consistently bad teams, so there is actual risk, albeit probably minimal for them.
    Except Canada literally just started one with the full intentions of pro/rel.
    Because Houston and Chicago are doing great as is
    How is that a reversal? If it’s “one bad season”, then they should have no problem making it back.

    “One bad season” isn’t really what we see in American sports, though. We see bad franchises.
    I honestly don’t and I am also not sure you do either except that you keep repeating Newcastle now that they’ve been sold.

    Again, how is that relevant? When they were promoted, they played their home games almost 200 miles away from home.
     
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  2. Expansion Franchise

    Chattanooga FC
    United States
    Apr 7, 2018
    A little more backstory on FC Tambov: not only were they formed less than a decade ago, they are (were) owned by the city government.

    Here’s some background on that in Russian football:
    http://www.futbolgrad.com/budget-problems-russian-football/
    which explains why they basically fell apart as an organization during the winter break.

    So it’s really hard to draw any meaningful parallels from this.
     
  3. CoachP365

    CoachP365 Member+

    Money Grab FC
    Apr 26, 2012
    #32378 CoachP365, Oct 14, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2021
    Right, the expansion fee is distributed to the owners. Seems like it should be obvious, if a group of people own something, and take in revenue, the owners would get shares of that revenue. Be it from media rights, selling shares, etc....

    And I was giving SBNation the benefit of the doubt by quoting them, they came up higher in the search results, they seem to fall on the "access media" side of the us soccer spectrum. Not an aqueduct like the bigger talking heads on the television, but bucket level for carrying water for the status quo...

    I think I said somewhere in the past 20 pages or so, that perhaps SUM or a SUM like entity that marketed for all of soccer in the US, could be good, in that it might remove some of the instability in the lower divisions, knowing that there was a pool of revenue outside of the gate/merch/concessions.

    I personally think, the ability to join the 1st division without buying shares in SUM, so that one could also leave the 1st division should a better team appear, would help with the marketing of soccer overall in the US, should some magic entity appear that wanted to do that.

    This thread ceased to be a bout "pro/rel" long ago, and tends to now mostly touch on "open pyramid" issues - of which pro/rel is a part. Given the current structure of single entity based on ownership of SUM shares or franchises with the Papadaki, I don't see true pro/rel happening. Internal pro/rel within USL might be neat, but I think that's going to take a back burner while they ramp up to replace NWSL with the USL-S in the leadup to the next WWC. Should be interesting.
     
  4. Doogh

    Doogh Member+

    Oct 5, 2019
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #32379 Doogh, Oct 14, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2021
    This is a flimsy argument, because ownership will stay regardless if they make "bad decisions" or not. I'm pretty sure Hull City still has Assem Allam from a decade ago when they were in the Premier League for a brief time. Then you had the Oyston family owning Blackpool for like 20 years - even though their son is a ex-convicted rapist. When is Norwich owners going to sell, because their team, currently at a -14 goal difference is likely going to get relegated. Is Farke going to be sacked? Was Farke sacked the last time they were relegated like two or three seasons ago? Where's the consequences for that?

    Roughly in pro/rel systems, you don't see that many frequent ownership changes in the first division each season, and in lower division ownership changes happen because the club went to administration (bankruptcies) and liquidation or the club is debt ridden.

    In MLS you see some ownership changes too, it's not like Chicago still has Hauptman or whatever his name is or has the same owner for 20 years like Oyston.

    Whoa, where did this come from? Pretty sure Paolo Di Canio played for West Ham.

    Why is Birmingham excluded out of the first division? Oh wait because the Premier League and the FA limits the number of arbitrary teams it can actually in play in the first division.

    [​IMG]

    Counterpoint, there's bad teams in pro/rel systems too. But hey, just because you're not severely impacted of clubs you don't watch, in cities you don't live in, people you will likely never meet, why do you care?
     
  5. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    USL has its own marketing division. They also produce their own TV broadcasts. I'm not sure they've ever offered their services to USSF :)

    It might but if pro-rel helped marketing wouldn't NFL or one of the other major sports, or even minor sports, have cottoned into the idea sometime in the last century? Pro-rel between NHL and AHL could have solved the NHL's post- war expansion struggles.

    It seems that newer leagues, like MLL and MLR are following the MLS approach.

    CPL is "committed" to a two division system but in terms of revenue and attendances its relatively minor compared to a US major league.
     
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  6. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    M and I are generally on opposite sides of the issue, and as this discussion continued over the last couple of pages I found myself again disagreeing with him, but he was right here. The original post doesn't flow from the quote.

    What baseball team has successfully tanked for draft picks and then used those picks to become successful. Plenty of teams have "tanked" by trading their current major league quality players for prospects to restock the farm system as a long-term plan to success (my Mariners are just finishing up that process) but that's different than tanking to be rewarded by the draft.

    Or, you know, wash out of MLS completely and end up in USL or a different country all together. Just like in every other league on the planet.
     
  7. Expansion Franchise

    Chattanooga FC
    United States
    Apr 7, 2018
    They run their organization into the ground, their club is no longer worth anywhere near what it was when they were in the PL.

    If they want their investment to be worth something again, they have to improve their stewardship of it.

    “No consequences” means that Hauptmann could sell to Mansueto at a massive profit.
    What is the correlation between “ownership change” and accountability? An owner being able to sell their dysfunctional shipwreck of a franchise way above what it’s reasonably worth due to its protected privileged status (see Donald Sterling) is not exactly accountability.
    … this is all part and parcel to Sunderland’s fall.

    Birmingham isn’t excluded. They have one of the historically biggest clubs in England sitting in 10th place. It’s owned by the billionaire who is currently putting together an expansion bid for MLS in Las Vegas.

    So you are more of an authority on their league than their commissioner. Or maybe you’re just finding new markets to show your ass in.
    The difference is that they get replaced by better ones.
    Huh, the club I directed all of my support towards before I had a local club recently suffered their first relegation since the PL began. I support them because they’re based in the city of the people who write my checks and my friends and coworkers all support them so I felt a connection there.

    But, again, it’s no surprise that you’re just smugly throwing out baseless garbage and pretending you have a point.
     
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  8. CoachP365

    CoachP365 Member+

    Money Grab FC
    Apr 26, 2012
    Expansion didn't really help the NHL, not sure that pro/rel would have either. NHL is where it is today due to 2 lucky events - the US 1980 gold medal and Gretzky joining the league right when it finally got a nationwide cable deal (USA, then ESPN, in the 80s). Those free flowing 8-5 games retained a lot of eyeballs that might have casually flicked by...

    Unlike some of my nutter brethren, I don't see a reason for pro/rel in the other major US sports. I could see an alternate pro/rel pyriamid popping up in hoops, but it seems like the fireball/3v3 thing is filling that niche of non NBA still love the game markets.
     
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  9. Doogh

    Doogh Member+

    Oct 5, 2019
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #32384 Doogh, Oct 14, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2021
    Who "profits" from professional soccer if professional soccer operates at a loss especially now where most top division soccer leagues are already forecasting a deep loss of revenue?

    Chicago Fire in 2019 reported $23 million dollars in revenue and had a loss of $16 million dollars in income.

    You need to understand the differences between valuation, revenue, income and selling a team for x amount of money, Chicago being valued at $400 million doesn't mean Mansueto is buying the team at $400 million. He is responsible of the club's revenue and losses/expenses. He bought Hauptman's remaining stake of the team. And I'm pretty sure Chicago Fire is operating at a negative now.

    If I sell my car, it would be more valuable now than it was two years ago or when I bought it years ago, why? Because there's more demand than supply due to the chip shortage crisis. Could it be less valuable? Sure. Does it mean that I would get richer? No. Does this mean I'll seek an opportunity to make a profit when I sell my car? No.

    Same thing if you want to flip houses. Not always a profit generator.

    At least those leagues are heavily regulated. If an owner like Donald Sterling gets caught in a racist tirade regarding African-American people, he's removed and banned from NBA. When the Premier League allows journalist-killing, controversial petrostate royal family in, it gets celebrated in the streets of Newcastle. There's no vetting process for the latter.

    In the minor, err...sorry "second division"...

    Dang, why is he investing in evil closed leagues?

    Project, project, project.

    No. Because pro/rel only helps those at the top while giving smaller teams meaningless participation prizes to play for.

    How is Norwich inclusion to the English Premier League "better?" How many teams can realistically win in the league? Five? The rest is just fodder?

    Bet in 10 years, none of the mid-table teams like Southampton, Brighton, Crystal Palace, Watford, Burnley, Aston Villa will win a championship league title.

    Okay...

    Sure...
     
  10. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Pro/rel if it ever will happen is a long way off. My pense de jour is that USL fails and the remaining teams flock to MLS to form a MLS 2 in the same way that Football Alliance teams flocked to the Football League to form the Second Division.

    Eventually MLS 2 becomes hugely successful with competitive teams and full stadiums to the extent that MLS 1 owners see an upside to admitting teams on sporting merit.

    I wonder what state the Fire would have been in if he hadn't stood to make a profit. As it stands he only made a mere $350 million minus any losses he made while running the club. :)
     
  11. Expansion Franchise

    Chattanooga FC
    United States
    Apr 7, 2018
    Aston Villa is in the Premier League, but seriously continue braying on about stuff you clearly know nothing about with confidence.
     
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  12. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    Yeah, this is pretty hilarious.

    I think there have also been a few seasons when all of Aston Villa, Birmingham City and West Bromwich Albion (whose stadium is partially in Birmingham) have been in the top division at the same time.
     
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  13. Expansion Franchise

    Chattanooga FC
    United States
    Apr 7, 2018
    As recently as 2010/11!

    When I first started at my company, I thought I should maybe follow Birmingham City, since they were in the Prem and felt like underdogs. Bought my son a City kit. Looked and felt cheap. They were immediately relegated and I realized nobody I worked with liked them anyway, so I glommed onto Villa.
     
  14. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    He means a league championship. Something us old folks call winning the Premier League.
     
  15. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    I have a soft spot for Birmingham City, mainly because I was at the game against Bolton Wanderers where 16 year old Trevor Francis scored all four goals. Quite a remarkable achievement.
     
  16. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I believe the Fire lost about $100 million in Hauptman's reign. He also negotiated the exit from Bridgeview. I'm not sure how much that cost him personally. While he did a terrible job running the Fire he did win a "humanitarian award" for giving under-served kids in Chicago the opportunity to play soccer.
     
  17. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    Father was the rapist, not the son. When he was jailed, the chairmanship passed to Vicki, his wife. Then she passed it on to their son Karl Oyston. The family continued to own the club until a few years ago, and I certainly consider them "exhibit A" as to what a joke the Football League's "fit and proper" ownership test is.

    Anyway, there was a consequence to the Oystons in that the eventual sale in 2019 was from receivership and the Oystons got £0 for it. This was a club with a great history which, even in the modern era, with competent management should have been a Championship-level club. rather than one that spent so much of their ownership tenure below that.
     
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  18. AlbertCamus

    AlbertCamus Member+

    Colorado Rapids
    Sep 2, 2005
    Colorado, USA
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    I don't think so, I think he didn't realize Aston Villa is in Birmingham. One of the things I like about pro/rel is you team can slowly decline as opposed to just being yanked away in the middle of the night because your city prefers services to for people as opposed to pouring millions into a stadium. Go Hartford Whalers! lol
     
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  19. Doogh

    Doogh Member+

    Oct 5, 2019
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yeah, I meant winning the Premier League.

    Boy, do I have some bad news to tell you regarding public funds being used in pro/rel system as well...
     
  20. Expansion Franchise

    Chattanooga FC
    United States
    Apr 7, 2018
    Really?
    upload_2021-10-14_16-45-54.png

    Don’t see anything about “winning the Premier League” there, nice try though.
     
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  21. Crawleybus

    Crawleybus Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    No it isn't, Oldham are going down because they lose too many football matches, they won't be relegated based on their financial status!

    In 1991-1992 Oldham Athletic were playing in the top flight while Bournemouth were plying their trade in Division 4. Oldham were playing at Old Trafford and Anfield, Bournemouth were playing at Halifax and Scarborough in whatever their stadiums are called! Oldham (obviously) had a much better team than Bournemouth and all of the financial advantages too! Both clubs 'journey's' over the seasons since highlight perfectly the beauty of the pro/rel system.

    Incidentally that very same season one of Bournemouth's Division 4 'away' fixtures would have been at Turf Moor against Burnley!
     
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  22. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    A significant percentage of stadium improvements in England since 1990 have been publicly funded.
     
  23. Doogh

    Doogh Member+

    Oct 5, 2019
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    o_O:unsure:

    Are we talking about Birmingham City or Aston Villa? We know both aren't going to win the Premier League. Both are small teams that develop talent for bigger teams to go after.
     
  24. Expansion Franchise

    Chattanooga FC
    United States
    Apr 7, 2018
    Villa is not a small team. City is a front for money laundering, though.
     
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  25. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'd say that Aston Villa were the 6th biggest club in England and Wales as recently as the early 1990s behind Man United, Liverpool, Arsenal, Tottenham and Everton, although they were a bit light on trophies.

    They won the league in 1980/81 and the European Cup the following season. Their stadium had the biggest terrace in England and was frequently used for Cup semi-finals and FA Cup replays.

    Like Everton they got left behind when the big money started pouring in to clubs like Chelsea and Blackburn, and Randy Lerner turned out not to be the right man to restore them to their "traditional" position.
     
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