News: Fire Berhalter

Discussion in 'USA Men' started by bigredmachine, Oct 15, 2019.

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  1. AngelaMerkin

    AngelaMerkin Member+

    Dec 2, 2005
    Actually, a decent amount of sound and cogent criticisms have been leveled in this thread and others. You are either ignoring them or choosing to be obstinate.

    Busio at the 6 would have been far better than Acosta. Acosta didn't do much for ball winning and offered nothing moving the attack forward. We have a lot of talent that was either on the bench or left off the roster that would have been better than who was in the starting lineup yesterday.

    Pulling up an argument for a game in 1999 does little to mitigate the fact that outside of 3 halves of football, the USMNT has looked really bad so far.

    It's on Gregg - his choices for roster selection, lineups, and subs have been really poor. I made a point in the pbp thread that GB needed to make 7 subs at halftime yesterday... and that was being generous. If he was at a club team doing this he'd be fired and the press would eviscerate him. It's an embarrassment to have a national team coach where if any team in a top 5 european league came calling for him I would have to wonder what is wrong with the management for that team. He is consistently the weakest link for this team.
     
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  2. golazo68

    golazo68 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 21, 2004
    Brazil
    Pretty simple the rest of this window.

    A loss or tie- you have to fire him. It would be negligence and incompetence
    for USSF not to do so, and there would still time to get another coach in.

    As well, with a loss or tie- it would simply be impossible for any supporter to justify only 1 home win in 3 games against decidedly weak competition + with so many overall underwhelming and even poor performances in these 6 games.

    On the other hand, with a win we all have to move forward (some of us grudgingly) with Gregg towards the November window.

    Look, Gregg is an obviously flawed coach for USMNT and I remain suspect how this will work out in end (I don't see a tremendous amount of on field progress and he has been given some time now).

    But with a win- his record would have shown enough progress during the last 4 games to keep him. (especially in the eyes of his employer). Results have to be the final arbiter at this stage.

    Very simple equation this week.
     
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  3. Eleven Bravo

    Eleven Bravo Member+

    Atlanta United
    United States
    Jul 3, 2004
    SC
    Club:
    Atlanta Silverbacks
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I disagree about Zimmerman. He’s a beast. And he was the only dude who showed up last night.

    That said, I am emphatically over Mark McKenzie.
     
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  4. AngelaMerkin

    AngelaMerkin Member+

    Dec 2, 2005
    I was fine with Zimmerman yesterday. My opinion, he is our 5th option in that position and I rate Richards higher than him. A Zimmerman, Richards pairing yesterday would have been greatly preferred. That isn't even hindsight... that's just looking at what GB had available. He really screwed up the CB pairing yesterday, but that is completely his modus operandi.
     
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  5. gunnerfan7

    gunnerfan7 Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    United States
    Jul 22, 2012
    Santa Cruz, California
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Zimmerman and Turner are very good and I'm OK with them as starters, along with MRob. After that, it gets dicey w/r/t MLS players.
     
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  6. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    Barcelona, Spain
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    he is one of these people who is really good at talking the talk...he can sound real smart when he talks....he should have been a litigation attorney or some other useless such job (not really but it would suit him better)

    he is not smart.....but he thinks he is. its really crazy. he just wants to be the coach and I dont think he even realizes how much he is holding the team back by being their coach. he thinks hes so smart and good and hes not.

    hes a fake academic.
     
  7. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Weren't we on a 14 game unbeaten run in competitive games before the loss? How many club coaches get fired after a loss breaks up 14 straight results?

    These threads would be better if people thought with more nuance. A coach can do bad things and make mistakes without deserving to be fired...and let's face it: my complaint about GGG (and I think most of yours, if you're honest with yourself) is that his tactics limit this group's ability, and are going to be exposed at the World Cup (assuming we get there.)

    But I can't complain too much about the actual results, because they're pretty good. I just think we've been somewhat fortunate, and the results flatter our play, and our talent is better than our play.

    But all my carping, I fully admit, is based on speculation and subjectivity. If in the long run I'm right, it'll be easy to say he should have been fired on Date X. The results don't support that though.
     
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  8. golazo68

    golazo68 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 21, 2004
    Brazil
    #683 golazo68, Oct 11, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2021
    Positives & negatives from the USMNT loss at Panama – and what to expect vs. Costa Rica | MLSSoccer.com

    "We’ll see what that means for Los Ticos. Seven field players — central midfielders Celso Borges and Yeltsin Tejada, wingers Johan Venegas and Joel Campbell, and defenders Ronald Matarrita, Francisco Calvo and Oscar Duarte — have started both games so far this window. Of that group, only Venegas has been subbed early enough (twice) to have gotten a significant amount of rest."

    If we can not beat a Ticos team that is historically poor, at our home, with their key and limited number of key starters playing their 3rd game during this window (while our 1st team outside of Zimmerman should be well or very well rested), we must fire Berhalter....with these poor performances and sub-par point total at this stage (with a loss).

    A win.... and let's move onto the November window and carp some more (haha) but support him with one more window to demonstrate sustained improvement with this squad- since 3 more points will put us on track for qualification (but not safe by any means)

    The real question is: What is going on in practice or pep talks that leads to such a flat performance from the entire team. It was really bizarre. I admit I am totally reading tea leaves, but from the outside it just seems like Gregg has no ability to rise emotions out of his squad, nor does he seem to make any emotional adjustments as well.

    For God sake, this is every soccer player's dream. Why don't we play like it?
     
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  9. JUnionFan

    JUnionFan Member+

    Philadelphia Union
    United States
    Sep 30, 2020
    Looking at the table, wouldn't it be funny if we win on Wednesday, and the rest of the results go our way and we end this window in first place (on GD)? What a wild ride.
     
  10. Pl@ymaker

    Pl@ymaker Member+

    Feb 8, 2010
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Then qualify for the World Cup and don't make it past the group stage. What a wild ride indeed.
     
  11. golazo68

    golazo68 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 21, 2004
    Brazil
    What I also don't understand....Gregg was harping on playing out of the back and with confidence on the ball (very much modern top club European style) more than 1 year ago. We've had a lot of opportunities to train this and have played a lot of games since then.

    If a team is going to take these tactical 'risk', then of course it will manifest (negatively) itself with the occasional blunder to cover in the defensive half, but it should also (positively) manifest itself with a much more spry attack and players
    with more confidence and (over time) produce more chances, more open play,
    defenses on their heals, breakouts......and ultimately more goals.

    That's the bet that this system can produce.

    But I can't say there is any evidence of this. More than 1 year is a pretty long time
    to implement a 'system'. Many of these players were with the team for the last 9-12 months and many games.

    At what point is there accountability for a strategy that it is not producing what it intended to produce?
     
  12. dark knight

    dark knight Super Moderator
    Staff Member

    Dec 15, 1999
    Club:
    Leicester City FC
    Who is going to play defensively? I think your midfield gets run over even worse. I’ve seen Busio look over matched in some of these games and none of your guys are defensive midfielders. (But I probably would have started him for someone other than Acosta.) Adams is arguably our most important player for a reason.

    I think these games are won and lost in the midfield and I would not have started both Weah and Zardes - and would have not started Arriola again after all the running. But my point in commenting isn’t that I have the answers - it’s that all of our little grievances are mostly fan noise. If you start from the belief that Berhalter is clueless and has to be fired - you can easily prove it to yourself. I think the quality of these discussions would be much better if our fan base was capable of some nuance.

    I didn’t say I can’t start an 18 year old - I’m just saying that’s not an unforgivable sin for me that he didn’t introduce a teenager at this stage. I would have been fine with Richards starting (did Miles really need rotating?)

    My list includes things like Mark McKenzie (I’m not a fan), starting Weah Zardes and Arriola together, not starting or playing Hoppe, wasting a sub with Yedlin. But I don’t want to fire him for my list - I want him to learn from it because I personally think it’s highly unlikely he gets fired before the World Cup.
     
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  13. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    Barcelona, Spain
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    there are a bunch of options...taylor booth, julian green, cappis, mckennie,

    it shouldnt just be acosta...there are a bunch of other mls players better than him too
     
  14. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    Barcelona, Spain
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    waiting for the results to catch up to the reality seems mindnumbingly dumb though...bc the only results that matter only happen once every 4 years.

    he needs to be out so there is no chance he gets another cycle
     
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  15. a_new_fan

    a_new_fan Member+

    Jul 6, 2006
    that person really doesn't exist

    I mean maybe the ghana coach from 12/16 years ago?
     
  16. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Is this a joke? Green as a ball winner? Taylor Booth? McKennie, OK, but Gregg doesn’t think Acosta is better, he just wanted to rest McKennie.

    Man, that’s taking the belief in magical Euro pixie dust to new heights.

    Anyway, your list proves my point. There is no Euro who is a better backup to Adams than what is in MLS.

    PS: name the MLSers!
    Then can you explain why you are posting in this thread now? Shouldn’t you be waiting until the World Cup?

    I’m trying to understand your reasoning here.
     
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  17. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    Barcelona, Spain
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    mckennie is a better dmid than acosta, for one. musah is another. nagbe is another.

    i dont have a clear view of the pool of dmids cuz ggg wasted years on bradley trapp and yueill...and then just panic settled on acosta

    canouse, for example, never got a shot with the team...called out berhalter and has been iced out since.

    i cant rank the pool without seeing these players with the team....i can tell you that some of the players are not and will never be good enough....

    NO! it is obvious ggg sux....he should be fired now...we shouldnt have to wait for irrefutable evidence to decide what is already obvious....tjhis isnt a scienctific study.

    why are you being obtuse?
     
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  18. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    McKennie, I gave you, but that was rotation, not a player assessment. Nagbe and Musah have pretty similar styles, and they just flat out aren’t defensive mids. Do you watch soccer? Canouse is a nice player in MLS, but a) I think Acosta is marginally better and b) he’s another MLSer anyway!!!
     
  19. dark knight

    dark knight Super Moderator
    Staff Member

    Dec 15, 1999
    Club:
    Leicester City FC
    Musah isn’t a d-mid. But guess who recruited him?

    You listed Julian Green as a d-mid and he’s being obtuse?
     
  20. dark knight

    dark knight Super Moderator
    Staff Member

    Dec 15, 1999
    Club:
    Leicester City FC
    And McKennie isn’t really a defensive midfielder either. If he’s fit I’d still probably rather Acosta starting with him.

    The lineup against Panama was a really similar one to the Mexico Gold Cup final - is it completely unreasonable to think they might fare as well against a lesser opponent?

    Some of these young whippersnapper fans didn’t have to live through that double defensive mid lineup (Richie Williams and Armas) away to Costa Rica. Now that was suffering! It’s easy to forget that even that 2002 team had serious struggles and Reyna’s injury gave Mathis his chance - and Arma’s injury gave Mastroeni his. Arena’s resume might have looked different had those things not happened.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.fr...a-history-of-u-s-wcqs-in-central-america/amp/
     
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  21. dark knight

    dark knight Super Moderator
    Staff Member

    Dec 15, 1999
    Club:
    Leicester City FC
  22. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Right, McKennie isn’t a true #6, but at least he can win a tackle. The trios that have been suggested on this thread can’t.
     
  23. Ghost

    Ghost Member+

    Sep 5, 2001
    Just saying we were rotating doesn't excuse how bad we were. Nor the lack of intensity. Nor how bad we've been for most of the playing time in qualifiers so far. Nor the fact that we haven't scored in the last nine first halves.
     
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  24. golazo68

    golazo68 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 21, 2004
    Brazil
    #699 golazo68, Oct 12, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2021
    Gregg is a still a relatively new and fresh coach for this team.

    We shouldn't be seeing the 'Gregg fatigue' that we are seeing SO SOON- the lack of inspiration and energy....nonplus in the team. It is befuddling. As if the lack of confidence of the coach is transferred to the entire team, immobilizing them.

    Panama was a 'hey, do you guys got balls or not' talk before the match. Especially since
    we have been awful in every single first half of the WCQ so far...how could Gregg not
    make a point to come out full of energy?

    Instead we prolly got more technical mumble jumble minutia talk- which somehow forgot to include "and btw don't let 3 of their players lineup in front of Matt on a corner kick totally unguarded'

    Again credit to Bruce- he gave his teams that confidence that they could beat anyone at any time. He never backed down from the bully in his approach or in his lineups (save a few small cases and I give him a pass for trying to save us from the hole we were in in '18- unfair sample)

    He trusted his talent. Kept it simple...and they played much more often than not ABOVE their capabilities.

    Yes, he did coach some bad performances like any coach, but we never looked this flat for such a long stretch. We could score goals. And Bruce also had (on average) harder WCQ opponents to face and (again on average) a less experienced (at the highest level) group of players and certainly less talented.

    We are 25+ years into MLS as well. A selected MLS player on this squad SHOULD BE BETTER than a selected MLS player 15-20 years ago...because the league is a lot better relative to leagues in the region and Europe now.

    It is not 'unredeemable' yet, but it must start with a win and good performance
    tomorrow. But a tie or loss totally unacceptable.
     
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  25. keller4president

    Jan 5, 2006
    Top potential Berhalter replacements:

    -Greg Vanney
    -Pablo Mastroeni
    -Tab Ramos
    -Dom Kinnear
    -David Wagner (Young Boys)
    -Peter Vermes
    -Robin Fraser
    -Adrian Heath
    -Oscar Pareja
    -Jesse Marsch (but he won't leave Leipzig at the moment).
     

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