Pre-match: October WCQ window roster

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by Reccossu, Sep 13, 2021.

  1. gtrower

    gtrower Member

    Jul 14, 2014
    Club:
    DC United
    Berhalter said this week that McKennie has served his punishment and they’re past it. He started today for Juve as well. He will be in the camp.
     
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  2. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    I agreed with your post but was just adding something tangential. No slight intended.
     
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  3. thedukeofsoccer

    thedukeofsoccer Member+

    Jul 11, 2004
    Wussconsin
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    He didn't expressly say McKennie would be named to the next camp, rather if he was a message was sent. You could infer he'll be there, but nothing beyond that.

    Furthermore, one could also infer that even if he's there, he will be held out of the first game. Gregg said trust is going to need to be re-earned. Don't know how that would happen if he's dropped into a lineup from the outset, w/out seeing for a period in the camp if he's going to keep line-stepping.

    I would be fine with or maybe would even prefer if he was in camp, but w/held from playing initially as part of a probationary period, and to show it's not just going to be a slap on the wrist, of what could have amounted to 1 game not starting, factoring in rotation. That's pretty light on deterrence.

    We'd have more utility for him in the 2nd game rather than the 1st one that's going to be possession-based anyway. I've expressed that I'm leery of the McKennie-Adams combo to break down organized teams.

    As far as his club performance, he got chided by Allegri after the game, in another underwhelming performance by Juve. Not that this is particularly relevant to the matter. While we're inferring, I'd do it from you that you can't live without Wes in a lineup for long because of his club association. I can, and regardless, setting precedents and not giving special treatment matters, principally & consequentially.
     
  4. TurdFerguson

    TurdFerguson Member

    United States
    Jan 11, 2013
    He has already been suspended 2 matches, if he is in camp and performs well in training he should start.
     
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  5. thedukeofsoccer

    thedukeofsoccer Member+

    Jul 11, 2004
    Wussconsin
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    He wasn't going to start all 3 matches of the first window, so was in effect just out of one lineup.

    And how does he re-earn trust from the team off the field first, if he's just playing right away? He didn't need to earn trust in training. Wasn't suspended for poor on field performance.
     
  6. onefineesq

    onefineesq Member+

    Sep 16, 2003
    Laurel, MD
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    We have got to get past the 'he has some starts in good leagues' line as an evaluatory tool. It seems like each time the conversation turns to Sargent, the answer is that he has started games in the Bundesliga and (now) the PL. The fact that he has not been particularly effective at the task of a forward while playing on non-youth teams is apparently of minimal concern to most. There is something to be said of confidence (within reason). Would I rather have a guy playing on a bad club in an "A" league and being completely useless and devoid of confidence, or someone in a good situation in a "B" league, who is brimming with confidence and feels like a worldbeater? The answer is pretty simple to me when taken in conjunction with the fact there is no history of excellence (again, at the full adult level of the game) to make it clear that Sargent is inherently better than his competition in the "B" leagues. Simply being rostered on a bad club in a good league cannot be the measure of who should get the lion's share of minutes for the US national team. Sargent can moot all of this pretty easily -- become goal dangerous! Right now, he is not.
     
  7. onefineesq

    onefineesq Member+

    Sep 16, 2003
    Laurel, MD
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #332 onefineesq, Sep 22, 2021
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2021
    I kind of like this list, though we wont have this many guys there, so several more would be cut as you stated. I have actually been persuaded on Scally over time as well, as an emergency cover fullback (3rd string on both sides to start). That is because it allows us to leave Ream at home and move on with life (yes, I know he was not horrible in the El Salvador game). Mind you, I would actually prefer to call in 3 backs on each side and have them fight it out (with Paredes being the 3rd left back and Scally the 3rd right back), but I don't think Gregg will call in that many dedicated backs. We definitely need some more attacking/passing options in the midfield, and Djorde (who I admit I had left for dead) has had a fantastic season. He and Ferreira are interesting to me, but I doubt either will end up on the squad.
     
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  8. YNWA Rob

    YNWA Rob Member+

    Liverpool FC
    United States
    Nov 12, 2020
    Indiana
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Actually they are similar. Same game, same rules, same ball, etc. They are not the same, but they are similar and actually, along with the two CNL matches, the Gold Cup is the closest national team experience a manager has to go by when it comes to evaluating (considering how long ago the previous World Cup's qualifying matches were played). Club performance is very important, but those Gold Cup matches are quite relevant for the managers as they select their WCQ squads and teams.
     
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  9. Shaster

    Shaster Member+

    Apr 13, 1999
    El Cerrito, CA, USA
    I would let Pulisic out this window.
    We have good enough talents to handle these three games.
     
  10. Roger Allaway

    Roger Allaway Member+

    Apr 22, 2009
    Warminster, Pa.
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think it's of major concern to a lot of us.
     
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  11. Reccossu

    Reccossu Member+

    Jan 31, 2005
    Birmingham
    I wouldn’t. Unless he isn’t healthy and fit enough to go at least 35 minutes.
     
  12. The Clientele

    The Clientele Member+

    Portland Timbers
    Jun 25, 2005
    Portland, Oregon
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    DSpence hit the nail on the head with this post. Wes, Adams, Acosta and Seb are not going get the ball to the forwards. That is why I want to see more of the guys mentioned - Musah, Busio or pre-injury Pomykal - get more run outs.
     
  13. The Clientele

    The Clientele Member+

    Portland Timbers
    Jun 25, 2005
    Portland, Oregon
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    11Bravo - have you seen Sonora play? If so, what is your assessment?
     
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  14. thedukeofsoccer

    thedukeofsoccer Member+

    Jul 11, 2004
    Wussconsin
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I've seen him play a few times. He's a pretty clean player on the ball, but struggles to make much of an imprint on the game, because he doesn't have the bravery, mobility, or top vision to break down defenses. And defensively he's mediocre.

    His last goal was really fluky - huge deflection on a weak shot.

    He tried to break thru with their club last season and it met an impasse. Got benched for quite a while. This is his second chance. He's had a several game stretch of solid form. Needs to extend that by being more consistent, and maybe add another wrinkle to his game, to warrant meaningful call-ups.
     
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  15. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    From the very short highlights I saw, he seems to be a pretty fantastic and flairfilled dribbler (I know, not necessarily our missing piece). Good ball control. I was impressed in general, but it's highlights over an unspecified number of games, which means ... if the number of through balls was over a game or two, okay. Over ten? That's not going to be helpful.
     
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  16. Eleven Bravo

    Eleven Bravo Member+

    Atlanta United
    United States
    Jul 3, 2004
    SC
    Club:
    Atlanta Silverbacks
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I’ve seen his highlights but not his games... I think @thedukeofsoccer had a pretty fair assessment. I would say, he’s a fairly direct player and dribbler type who can hit balls from distance. This may be a wrong comparison but he seems like a lesser version of Ezequiel Barco. And I’ll concede that I might unconsciously compare the two based on the Argentine connection.
     
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  17. Ceres

    Ceres Member+

    Jan 18, 2004
    Aarhus, Denmark
    Club:
    AGF Aarhus
    Nat'l Team:
    Denmark
    I can assure you that his goals in the Superliga were not random, as in a random "long ball" upfield. Besides using insanely much time and creativity on training different kinds of set pieces (including very long throw-in's ), the Superliga coaches (especially the bottom-half teams) also spend loads of time instructing their defenders and midfielders on exactly when and where to make these long passes and their wingers and strikers tactically, on exactly when and where to run and where to stand at any given moment. There has been some critique of Wright for not always following the tactical instructions too well, and so not scoring as many goals as they would have hoped for, because otherwise he is quite fast, fairly good on the ball and physically he is a beast, who can seem almost unstoppable.

    Truth is that the Danish Superliga is highly tactical, so it's kind of like a game of "chess" trying to ruin the opponents next move and with very little random play going on and very few random goals being scored in open play and so most of the goals will be through set pieces, where Danish Superliga clubs, according to an official study, are actually more efficient at scoring goals, from top to bottom, in compare with the top-4 leagues. The Superliga is mainly lacking in speed and the short-passing close to the box leading to goals.

    But that is obviously both due to using more younger players and the best of them being sold every summer, and so with often many changes being made to the starting 11, losing their best players will make any team unstable, and so the focus will be more on set pieces and defending well.
     
  18. cyberthoth

    cyberthoth Member+

    Nashville SC
    Aug 7, 2000
    Nashville, TN
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Sargent has proven quite dangerous in cup games in both Germany and England where the opposition was MLS level. I personally think, based on that, its a more reasonable assumption that Sargent would be a major goal scoring threat if he were playing in MLS or the Championship than it is to automatically assume Dike/Zardes/ect would be scoring at a higher rate than Sargent if they were playing for Norwich.

    Obviously to be a starter for the Nats moving forward, any of the above are going to have to step it up to be a goal scorer in a Big 4 league and that includes Sargent.
     
  19. gomichigan24

    gomichigan24 Member+

    Jul 15, 2002
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Here’s an update on the UK red list situation

    https://theathletic.com/news/govern...-leagues-red-list-internationals/pu6eVj3tR9Pz

    It sounds like the current compromise is going to be that the quarantine period will be reduced from 10 days to 5 days and the quarantine can be done inside the club bubble.

    This should resolve things for the Panama game at least, as anyone who plays in it won’t have to miss any games. The more complicated question will be what would happen if in a later window we have to go to a red list country for our third game of the window.
     
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  20. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    We will move past it as soon as we have 2-3 guys in top leagues, at good clubs, scoring regularly.

    There is nothing empirical that shows that scoring regularly against lesser competition is better than scoring infrequently against better competition. Altidore and McBride, with similar or worse output in top leagues, performed better than guys scoring regularly in MLS at the time.

    I think Pepi will move to a better club this Winter and Hoppe and Gioachinni are already getting minutes at a similar level. So, the wait might not be that long at all. Of course, if Gregg will play them at striker.

    But let's all understand one thing, which I think was the OP point, Sargent isn't just getting, "a few starts", he has racked up major minutes as a starter in top flights. He probably has more minutes at striker in a top league than all the other U21 players before him combined.
     
  21. thedukeofsoccer

    thedukeofsoccer Member+

    Jul 11, 2004
    Wussconsin
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Sargent was on rotated 1st division sides playing against rotated 2nd division ones or lower. That's not MLS-level and to boot he got to be a flat track bully. In no way simulated MLS opposition in a parity league, or playing for the US in CCAF.

    We can't assume anyone who hasn't performed at the top levels, could. But we can't assume they can't either, if they've never had the chances due to circumstance. Whereas with players who are failing, like Sargent, we can. We've seen it. If Sargent is anything as a top 4 player/nat'l teamer, he's a winger (and that's not proven for nat'l team). He sure as hell isn't a striker, no matter how much some try to keep force-fitting it based on club/league associations.

    We've seen how that lack of goalscoring prowess has translated to the nat'l team, relative to Zardes, Morris, Pepi, etc. That would naturally the #1 criteria for nat'l team play. It's amazing this has to be gone over ad nauseum. I'd imagine that's not true with pretty much any other nat'l team's fans.

    "Obviously, going forward, any of the above are going to have to step it up to be a goal scorer in a big 4 league". When does that point start? Because it's not our present existence, unfortunately. It will eventually, but we're talking wcq'ing the next few months here. And what's obvious is if you don't perform for the nat'l team at a point, who gives a crap what you're doing for your club, let alone which club/league you're loosely associated with.
     
  22. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Sargent will be part of the group.
    Whether he starts or not is another matter.
    He's been dropping down that depth chart.

    I personally have him behind Pepi and Pefok right now.

    But I still have him ahead of everybody else....................for now.
    He and Hoppe (as a #9) are really, really close.

    I get that Sargent hasn't played particularly well for the USMNT................

    I just still have faith in his talent. Still only 21.
     
  23. thedukeofsoccer

    thedukeofsoccer Member+

    Jul 11, 2004
    Wussconsin
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    A quarantine and for 5 days after you get back is still an impediment. It would rule them out of the first club match after their return. And that would be extra tough to navigate given they'd have to leave a few weeks later.

    They still need to leave some English-based players back in the States. Maybe this increases the chances for a Horvath inclusion, because right now he's not even starting at his club. But key players like ARob, Ream, Sargent, even CP it would be tough for. Maybe in emergency situations you press the issue, but otherwise naw.
     
  24. gomichigan24

    gomichigan24 Member+

    Jul 15, 2002
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The quarantine is 5 days from Panama though not 5 days from the end of the window. Five days from the Panama game would be the 15th, meaning you’d be able to play in the games on the weekend. And if I understand the club bubble being ok to quarantine from, that means you’d be able to train in between too.
     
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  25. Pegasus

    Pegasus Member+

    Apr 20, 1999
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I imagine Pepi did enough in his start to get at least another plus sub minutes if not two starts in the next window. If he can keep scoring he keeps getting those starts and minutes but if he doesn't then it becomes a free for all again. If no one at forward can score then all the other things become much more important.
     
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