I'm belaboring the point now, but I don't think we should ignore that it appears neither Madley or Betts had a foul. There's no evidence to suggest otherwise.
Its more than Pawson not blowing it until Salah starts waving his arms. It appears that he doesn't react until after the medics are running on the field. He certainly didn't wave them on.
Which is another reason I referred to Andy Madley as worse than a potted plant. He didn't even move while that was happening.
The article from Leeds' website that explains its appeal asserts that Pawson "undoubtedly" got help from the VOR. In short, I think people are just speculating. If Pawson took input from the VAR without going to the monitor, he did things the wrong way. If the announcers were parroting what PGMOL said to them, "confirmation" can just mean that the VAR confirmed the red card was not a clear error, not that he was consulted before the decision was made. Peter Walton had a situation similar to this in the pre-VAR days with the Ryan Shawcross tackle on Ramsey. Simple foul called at first with no real urgency or any indication there would be misconduct. Then the injury became apparent and he got the training staff on, eventually isolated the player, and showed red. It happened a lot faster than it did here (maybe 15 seconds?) but it was nonetheless a situation where the severity of the injury prompted the referee to act differently. It seems pretty clear to me that's what happened with Pawson. It actually seems like he was telling Klopp he would send Strujik off in order to calm him down and get him off the field. Oh, in other news, just in case anyone thinks we aren't fighting an uphill battle here. Elliott has time to get online and declare it wasn't a red card. So, you know, that's helpful ... https://www.eurosport.com/football/...kle-injury-a-freak-acc_sto8540459/story.shtml
This is not an unusual event. Back in the old NASL era, one of the top referees did something similar. A player was clearly fouled with a high tackle. The foul was called and while the injured player was being attended to by the medical staff, the referee went to look at the injury and saw the stud marks running up the inside of the thigh. At that point the red card came out. It was actually following instructions at advanced clinics to be sure of the nature of the injury before deciding to send the culprit off. The difference with the Leeds situation is that a foul was not called initially which is quite bizarre. PH
Matchweek 5 Newcastle - Leeds Referee: Mike Dean. Assistants: Ian Hussin, Darren Cann. Fourth official: Michael Salisbury. VAR: Jarred Gillett. Assistant VAR: Neil Davies. Wolves - Brentford Referee: Darren England. Assistants: Harry Lennard, Peter Kirkup. Fourth official: David Coote. VAR: Stuart Attwell. Assistant VAR: Stuart Burt. Burnley - Arsenal Referee: Anthony Taylor. Assistants: Gary Beswick, Adam Nunn. Fourth official: John Brooks. VAR: Lee Mason. Assistant VAR: Matthew Wilkes. Liverpool - Crystal Palace Referee: Andy Madley. Assistants: Adrian Holmes, Eddie Smart. Fourth official: Geoff Eltringham. VAR: Andre Marriner. Assistant VAR: Simon Long. Man City - Southampton Referee: Jonathan Moss. Assistants: Marc Perry, Timothy Wood. Fourth official: Peter Bankes. VAR: Martin Atkinson. Assistant VAR: Richard West. Norwich - Watford Referee: Robert Jones. Assistants: Scott Ledger, Derek Eaton. Fourth official: Tim Robinson. VAR: Graham Scott. Assistant VAR: Dan Cook. Aston Villa - Everton Referee: Craig Pawson. Assistants: Simon Bennett, Dan Robathan. Fourth official: Simon Hooper. VAR: Paul Tierney. Assistant VAR: Lee Betts. Brighton - Leicester Referee: Stuart Attwell. Assistants: Dan Cook, Simon Long. Fourth official: Graham Scott. VAR: Peter Bankes. Assistant VAR: Wade Smith. West Ham - Man Utd Referee: Martin Atkinson. Assistants: Lee Betts, Richard West. Fourth official: David Coote. VAR: Darren England. Assistant VAR: Dan Robathan. Tottenham - Chelsea Referee: Paul Tierney. Assistants: Constantine Hatzidakis, Neil Davies. Fourth official: Craig Pawson. VAR: Chris Kavanagh. Assistant VAR: Sian Massey-Ellis. Tierney's hot streak this season shows no sign of stopping.
"Big" matches: Leicester - Man City (Community Shield): Tierney Tottenham - Man City: Taylor Arsenal - Chelsea: Tierney Man City - Arsenal: Atkinson Liverpool - Chelsea: Taylor Leicester - Man City: Tierney Tottenham - Chelsea: Tierney Distribution of these matches in the EPL: Tierney: 3 Taylor: 2 Atkinson: 1 Tierney is dominating this list.
Like someone else, I wasn't sure where to post this from the WSL so I'll put it here since it is England. Manchester City's rising star, 20 year old Esme Morgan got her leg broken on a tackle against Tottenham last Sunday... and she got the yellow card for her pains. 0'44 into the video after a long outlet pass along the right flank; a slo-mo replay follows shortly after (Sorry, when I embed the video I can't seem to get it to start at the relevant point of the video. I must be doing something wrong) Maybe it's just me, but after the Harvey Elliott injury and now this, I can't help thinking of the chant, You don't know what you're doing. ADD: and yes, Esme Morgan got the yellow card, at about 3'12 of the video, as she's about to be put on a stretcher. Ellen White and a couple other Manchester City players react in disbelief.
I'm going to regret this, I know, but... At first glance, without knowing the result (or pretending I don't know it), the foul looks to be on Morgan to me. The Tottenham defender gets to the ball first and has played it away. Then there is a collision. I think most referees looking at that with one opportunity would say it's a foul against Morgan. She's the one arriving late to a contested ball. With the benefit of replay, maybe I can get to a point where I say that neither player was actually careless and neither player committed a foul, because Morgan slips and it's just a bad collision. And, if a card was shown, I think a replay proves that decision to be clearly wrong. But this one truly is a freak accident. Morgan either loses her footing (the generous interpretation, but probably the correct one) as she cuts to her left OR she is making a very late challenge of her own after the ball is gone and gets hurt doing it. Either way, I'm not sure what the defender is guilty of, other than clearing the ball away and then getting run into. Both players are entitled to the space and to contest for the ball. The Spurs defender gets their first, wins it, and clears it. She hasn't used excessive force. The nature of the tackle itself does not endager the safety of the opponent. It's just a run-of-the-mill tackle. The injury results from where Morgan ends up putting her leg and the manner in which it goes there, neither of which is something that the tackling player would be expecting. Not every serious injury is caused by a red card challenge. Sometimes you truly do get hurt by either being unlucky (most likely here) or, bluntly (if she put her leg in there late deliberately) being dumb. Morgan either committed the foul or slipped at a really bad moment. Either way, lumping this in with horrendous premeditated challenges isn't helpful.
I don't see the need for the YC here. This did not meet the criteria. None of the Spurs players were complaining. Really bizarre decision. Goes back to a fundamental principle of refereeing: get information from the players actions. PH
Wolves v Brentford. ~30th minute. Brentford scores. Called offside by AR. VAR looks, not offside, but oh wait... accidental HB by the goal scorer! No goal.
The penalty sequence at 27’ was phenomenal as well. Ref: “Watch the holding, guys. It’s too much.” Defender: “I’ll fukkin do it again!”
Women don’t complain/lobby/ask for cards like the men do. Other there will be no or little reaction to some pretty blatant misconduct.
Why bother showing a yellow at this point? You are carding a player who is going off. You gain literally nothing but animosity from players. The spirit of the game definitely did not hold up here.
Big VAR moment in the 62' of Man City-Southhamption. PK awarded and Walker sent off for DOGSO. Eventually overturned to no foul.
I’m not sure how Moss came up with red to begin with. I guess I know, implicitly, what he thought he saw. But that didn’t happen. It was DOGSO-yellow if it was a foul. And I agree it wasn’t a foul. Standard commentary that the mechanics from referees in England around VAR decisions is atrocious. Oh and the 90’ decision was quite interesting. Sterling offside just barely. I actually wonder if it would have been given it Foden had finished the ball instead of Sterling. By letter of law, it should. But I tend to believe it wouldn’t have been.
I'm glad you said this. It's amazing to me that a referee is actually asking or inviting players to influence their calls with how they react.
As many of you know, I support Everton who were soundly beaten today 3-0 to Villa. The game was 0-0 when Grey for Everton rolled his defender in the second half, and would have been in except he was held. Pawson decided there was no foul, and could very well have been DOGSO. Changed the game as Villa targeted Grey with repeated fouls. Yes, Everton got crushed, but Pawson did not recognize PI and stop the fouling. Plus, the crucial non call. Again, they coughed up 3 in 5 minutes but it was a game changer.
This is what disappoints me about people (mostly us Americans) who complains about women's soccer being too boring/slow but then also criticize the male players for the endless crying and theatrics. The women's game may be somewhat slower and less intense, but seeing how the women actually play the game, aren't constantly going down with barely any contact, aren't rolling around on the ground holding their shin, how they don't crowd the referee to yell at him, it would be so much better if the men followed that.
Sometimes understanding player reactions can help you in calling the game though. For example I had a college game last week. Had given two yellow cards already, one to each team. Tripping foul happens in front of the benches and the player falls hard. It looked borderline reckless to me because of the fall….but no one reacted “hot”, either from the players or benches. I blew the whistle hard and walked over there, but that was it. The player got up and took the free kick quickly and we played in. If I had given a card when no one “expected” it, I might have even lost credibility. So, gauging reactions can sometimes help — the more information that feeds into our decisions the better.
Curious about this one. This was a double yellow (one to Lansbury in red, one to Manning in white). It appears Lansbury was trying to take a free kick and winds up kicking the hell out of Manning as Manning tries to delay a quick restart. Decision: Yellow card...😳⚠Thoughts on this incident in the dramatic Championship clash between Luton Town and Swansea City? 🤯 pic.twitter.com/jzRIpbNeCa— Sky Sports Football (@SkyFootball) September 18, 2021
This one has been making the rounds quickly. White needs his yellow card. No wiggle room or debate there. Whether or not red needs red or yellow probably is determined by match context and seeing the 5-10 seconds before all this happened to have a little bit better of a feel of who has been doing what up to that point. That said, in most matches that anyone here would experience, red is the answer 99% of the time. If there’s a competition where yellow is the expected result, it’s probably the Championship.