2021-2022 UEFA Referee Discussion [R]

Discussion in 'Referee' started by MassachusettsRef, Jul 14, 2021.

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  1. Englishref

    Englishref Member

    Jul 25, 2004
    London, England
    #76 Englishref, Aug 6, 2021
    Both ARs and 4Os don't have to be FIFA officials though - for example you'll often see Dan Robathan acting as an AR2 or Darren England, Simon Hooper etc working as 4Os. That frees up several FIFA referees to act as VARs.

    In the same vain, I suspect they'll dip in to the 'expertise' of nations who regularly use VAR by using their non-FIFA listed referees to do the job, at least of AVAR1, to help spread the load.

    We'll have to wait and see I suppose, but yes, it'll be a stretch otherwise.
     
  2. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #77 MassachusettsRef, Aug 6, 2021
    Super Cup
    Chelsea : Villarreal - KARASEV (RUS)

    So I guess Brych is just taking a break after all those matches this summer. Karasev appointment is sensible. Seems to signal his chance to be in the upper echelon of the Elite category this season, though guys like Collum and Marciniak have got it, too, so his presence doesn't exactly seal the deal. Looking through past Super Cup assignments, it seems about half are trials for that final big step and half are a reward for a good career to referees who have not (yet) got the UCL Final despite already being candidates (several then went on to get it). Busacca looks like the only referee to have got the Super Cup after having the UCL Final, so a Brych appointment would have broken that mold.
     
  3. allan_park

    allan_park Member

    May 15, 2000
    #78 allan_park, Aug 6, 2021
    That is very true, but unless I am wrong that has been on qualifiers for club competitions, such as Europa or Champions League, where the rules of competition allow for using non-International Panel Referees.

    World Cup qualifiers are a different proposition. My understanding is that only FIFA Officials should be used on them. That said, and to my original point, I don't think they will be able to do that and so I think they will have to do something like you suggest - I just don't see how they can crunch the numbers otherwise.
     
  4. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #79 code1390, Aug 6, 2021
    This is what the regulations for the World Cup say

    To the 4O can come from a national list. AR2 and AVAR cannot.
     
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  5. Englishref

    Englishref Member

    Jul 25, 2004
    London, England
    #80 Englishref, Aug 7, 2021
    Correct, although they have been used in EL games before, but given the numbers required, I can see this being more acceptable, especially from the 'big' footballing nations.
     
  6. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #81 MassachusettsRef, Aug 7, 2021
    Every time I open this thread now, I think of an new wrinkle.

    We’ve focused on the number of personnel and the list of qualified VMOs. But another big aspect is the referee pool. You have a bunch of referees with no experience having a VAR in their ear. And their introduction will be… WCQs? Yikes. These will mostly be the third and fourth tier matches, but those can still matter for progression.
     
  7. allan_park

    allan_park Member

    May 15, 2000
    #82 allan_park, Aug 7, 2021
    There are wrinkles everywhere in this particular issue. :)

    In just the past two weeks, three domestic league games across Europe (that I know of, there may be more) have had to have a late change of officiating crews because of last minute changes to the travel itineraries of Officials either going to, or returning from, European appointments.

    So, not only do you have a logistical nightmare covering the UEFA games, but the domestic competitions are now suffering.

    That is just not sustainable, nor acceptable.
     
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  8. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #83 code1390, Aug 7, 2021
    Just your usual preseason friendly where Roma had three players and two coaches (including Mourinho) sent off after Real Betis scored a goal with their arm.

    1424133305067266051 is not a valid tweet id
     
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  9. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #84 MassachusettsRef, Aug 7, 2021
    Kuipers went out with an SFP red in his final match, at 5:30 of video below:



    Too bad the digital signboards didn't say "Thanks, Bjorn" as he issued it (if you watch the highlights, that advertisement was rotating through all game).

    Collina also had a nice send off:

     
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  10. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    #85 socal lurker, Aug 8, 2021
    Oh, c’mon. I’ve watched CONCACAF, that’s a yellow at most!
     
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  11. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #86 MassachusettsRef, Aug 8, 2021
    This makes me think of the challenge on De Bruyne in Brych’s match.



    Fofana is out until at least January. No call on the field as this was deemed a fair challenge. With so much focus on studs and intensity of challenge and point of contact, etc etc etc, we are forgetting the inherent dangers of tackles from behind when the second leg makes foul contact. Red cards are being deemed fair play. This isn’t sustainable.

    Fofana likely doesn’t quite have the star power to prompt a recalibration. So the question is which players do and how many need months-long injury hiatuses?
     
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  12. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member+

    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    Des Moines, IA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #87 RefIADad, Aug 8, 2021
    Is it just me, or does Collina look more and more like Dr. Evil every day?? :)
     
  13. Alex-Ref

    Alex-Ref Member

    Liverpool FC
    United States
    Nov 13, 2019
    #88 Alex-Ref, Aug 8, 2021
    Who was the referee for this match?

    There’s yet another example of craziness in this preseason linked below. I would be scared as a ref to see Simeone storming onto the field, but luckily he was only mad at his own player.

     
  14. Mikael_Referee

    Mikael_Referee Member+

    Jun 16, 2019
    England
    #89 Mikael_Referee, Aug 8, 2021
    Tackle from Portsmouth vs. Arsenal which caused another long-term injury is a closer comparison IMO.

    To be fair to UEFA, they had a clip from the Frankfurt vs. Chelsea SF of a comparable situation as "9" on the RAP scale, but I don't think they really care that much to be totally honest.

    The art of actually assessing dangerous tackles is more-or-less gone from Elite refereeing; you can always find some reason for a YC nowadays, short of De Jong or whatever.
     
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  15. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #90 code1390, Aug 9, 2021
    Europa League 2nd Leg

    FC Flora Tallinn (EST) - Omónia FC (CYP)
    Referee: Ivan Kružliak (SVK, Elite)

    ŠK Slovan Bratislava (SVK) - Lincoln Red Imps FC (GIB)
    Referee: Mykola Balakin (UKR, 2Cat)

    Alashkert FC (ARM) - FC Qaırat Almaty (KAZ)
    Referee: Lawrence Visser (BEL, 1Cat)

    HJK Helsinki (FIN) - Neftçi PFK (AZE)
    Referee: Deniz Aytekin (GER, Elite)

    FK Žalgiris Vilnius (LTU) - NŠ Mura (SVN)
    Referee: Bartosz Frankowski (POL, 1Cat)

    Anórthosis Ammochóstou FC (CYP) - SK Rapid Wien (AUT)
    Referee: Aleksandar Stavrev (MKD, 1Cat)

    St Johnstone FC (SCO) - Galatasaray (TUR)
    Referee: Andris Treimanis (LVA, 1Cat)

    Celtic FC (SCO) - FK Jablonec (CZE)
    Referee: Daniel Siebert (GER, 1Cat)

    A cat 2 Ukrainian referee is a nice appointment for him.
     
  16. feyenoordsoccerfan

    feyenoordsoccerfan Member+

    Jan 5, 2006
    Dragon's den, Rotterdam Netherlands
    #91 feyenoordsoccerfan, Aug 9, 2021
    He knows the Orange Squad makes it into the final, so tops quarter final match for him;)
     
  17. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #92 code1390, Aug 10, 2021
    Maybe I'm just missing it but this seems like a really harsh second caution. It seems like both players are effectively taking the same action and if anything it was the rangers player who kicked his opponent more than the other way around. The difference is the rangers player fell to the ground.

    https://streamable.com/tdow9g
     
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  18. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #93 MassachusettsRef, Aug 10, 2021
    I don't think you're missing anything. I might even take your "if anything" qualifier out. The Rangers player seems to get the Malmo player squarely, while contact going in the other direction is very difficult to discern.

    Reaction was everything here. Unfortunate. Vincic also had this happen a few days ago, so it's been a tough little stretch:
    https://streamable.com/df3ib6
     
  19. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    #94 RedStar91, Aug 11, 2021
    Only saw the penalty shootout of the Super Cup so can't comment on Karasev's performance.

    He did give a nice yellow to the Chelsea keeper for the tired habit of going up to each penalty kick taker to try and rattle them.

    It looks like Macron came out with a new color for the referee uniforms with the red.
     
  20. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #95 code1390, Aug 11, 2021
    I guess it means someone at a high level has decided to crack down on this. It's become very common.

    Now the fun situation would be when a keeper on a caution from the match has this happen and then doesn't get sent off because of that random law change.
     
  21. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #96 MassachusettsRef, Aug 11, 2021
    In which Cakir tells UEFA, "if you're going to jerk me around with big assignments, maybe I'll try to find out what happens if you actually call that trickery provision thing..."

    [1:15 of clip]

    https://streamable.com/2lvjk7
     
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  22. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #97 MassachusettsRef, Aug 11, 2021
    The most fascinating part of that clip, by the way, very well might be that it appears #20 of Young Boys actually knows the provision. He immediately reacts negatively when his goalkeeper picks up the ball and Cakir whistles. Then, when he gets to the spot of the ball, he yells at his keeper and not Cakir.

    I've long held that players simply don't know this is llegal and that everyone skates by because there's so little incentive to do it, that it never happens (and in turn, never gets called). But perhaps we've found the first professional player who proves me wrong.
     
  23. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #98 code1390, Aug 11, 2021
    There's a couple interesting things about this clip.

    Technically he committed the offense when he headed the ball back to the keeper but we can all understand if the keeper never picked it up then nothing needs to get called.

    The scrum for the ball and a defender going as far to lay down on the ball to prevent the quick FK all the mean time Cakir is standing with the yellow card in his hand blowing the whistle due to the mandated yellow card and ceremonial restart.

    But then as soon as I thought that, I immediately remembered the whole thing with delaying a caution on a quick restart and was like well then the defender laying on the ball was probably doing the right thing. Of course as soon as Cakir pulls the yellow out of his pocket he's started the process and it must be ceremonial.

    And then the attacker who got booked for something in this thing got his second yellow 7 minutes later.
     
  24. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    #99 RedStar91, Aug 11, 2021
    Wait... did Cakir get the location of the restart wrong there? He sets the wall up well inside the penalty area then moves it back to an IFK outside the penalty area.

    It's where the keeper picks up the ball isn't it? So the restart should have been an IFK inside the penalty area? Or is the location of the restart for trickery/circumvention where the trickery occurred?
     
  25. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    #100 RedStar91, Aug 11, 2021
    Also why did #7 of Cluj get a caution?
     
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