Exactly... big difference, in my opinion, than Efrain Alvarez. Honestly, one rule that I wouldn’t mind is similar to our divorce rules in South Carolina. You have to wait a year before you can play for another team. David Ochoa has always seemed like a bit of a head case... I wouldn’t be shocked if this is another Jesse Gonzalez. A keeper who received a lot of hype because he was young but never took that next step. Besides, if he thinks he’s ready for the national team now, well, I believe that will bode well for us.
Hopefully, I don’t have to count Cade Cowell who has a very loose connection to Mexico anyways. I would be surprised if he switched. But of all the dual-nationals, Ricardo Pepi is the main one I’m interested in. He’s the only one who is turning into a legit player... and in a position where we might could use him for this cycle. Meanwhile, Richie Ledezma is someone I’m high on, but how dirty would that be for him to switch when he’s actually played for our senior team? Still, we don’t even know if he’s going to be a soccer player after his ACL injury. And I rate Aaronson and Clark over him anyways. Still, it would suck. But more for the fact he’d go to Mexico than he’s a must for us. Then, Julian Araujo? I don’t want to lose him because he’s young but he’s not playing for the US anytime soon. His loss would be most felt for Olympic qualifying... same story as David Ochoa. Now, we talk about Jonathan Gomez... I don’t want to lose any highly touted prospect. Especially a left back... but despite the hype... we still have no idea about him. He plays in the USL. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t court him, but it’s a bit nuts if he’s already leaning towards Mexico. In all, it seems more and more that the Mexican federation is trying to adopt this we are the Mexican-American team than we are just the Mexican team. I don’t know if it has more to do with that. But I know of no other nation that deals with this sort of issue where a federation is trying to form itself as a parasite inside of another nation. But I mean we see it... I guarantee you that crowd last night didn’t drive all the way up from Mexico. No, those are people in the US who are more loyal to Mexico than they are the US and there’s no denying where their loyalty stands. Meanwhile, are we to just expect that these Mexican-American players will abandon the US as soon as Mexico calls them up? If so, should we not stop developing these players? From a USMNT perspective, it doesn’t seem to make much sense to invest in a player who will just jump ship at the first opportunity. In the long run, I think this hurts the Mexican-American player more than it helps them. Because I don’t want to see us waste time on a player who’ll jump ship as soon as their darling choice comes calling. We can focus those resources elsewhere.
Araujo, Pepe, Ochoa and Cowell. I think at least two will be w/ los dos. If I was a betting man I would say: Araujo and Ochoa with Mexico and Pepi and Cowell with the US. But losing anyone of them really bums me out... because IMO... None of them are really Mexicans... they are Americans w/ Mexican Heritage. In the end... I think we are deep enough now with talent that I only want players on our team that really want to be there. I heard that Araujo turned down a callup to the GC... LOL. He could have played 75% of the minutes at RB and then lifted a trophy w/ the US. On top of that... I think so much of his talent that I think he would have had a legit shot at really pushing Cannon for being the #2 RB.
It could be a reference to how the Olympic team functioned, not the senior team. Kreis f***ed that roster up. Weird callups. Intentionally played guys out of position. Publicly criticized players like Williamson (who was recovering from an injury before he got to camp) in terms of performance in training. No friendlies before the tournament so Ochoa and JT were splitting time in the group. Rotating CBs almost every game after Atlanta took away Robinson at the last minute. Just a total mess. And no wonder Kreis has disappeared completely since then. Update: Googled Kreis. He is an assistant on .... Inter Miami. Can't make that up.
I agree. There was a small window of opportunity for him to take advantage and he blew it... for what? The hope that his darling Mexico will call him up? Mexico still has Jorge Sanchez, Kevin Alvarez, and Vladimir Lorona. All young. All have a case to be ahead of him. And Mexico has consistently shown... they’ll court and dump these players as soon as they commit. The US right back situation is better but Araujo is not so damn good that he’s going to be a senior team player until he improves anyways. But Berhalter was going to give him that shot and he blew it. Now, Joe Scally is knocking on the door... and if he starts getting minutes for Gladbach? Plus Bryan Reynolds for Roma? Then there’s minimal chance of that resurfacing anytime soon. Maybe he could have got a January Camp. But even though I’d take him over Kyle Duncan because he’s younger... if you put it as a matter of who’s a better right back, at the moment, then I think Duncan still has the edge. But when it comes down to it.... you hit the nail on the head. At what point do these players say, I’m an American with Mexican heritage ~ not a Mexican residing in America ? It seems to me, they are the ones rejecting the country and not the country rejecting them. Nevertheless, we can just focus on the positives. There have been plenty of “Americans with Mexican heritage” who have represented the US as proudly and with as much love as anyone of us ever could have. And there were still plenty of “Americans with Mexican heritage” fans who supported the red, white, and blue last night.
One thing I hope I don’t hear come out of Ochoa’s mouth is a bunch of crap about “oh, thank you, USA, blah, blah, blah” Nah... just come out and be the cartoon villain. Don’t give us some chickenshit.
There's a lot more nuance to it. It's what Herc Gomez calls not feeling fully here nor fully there. Being forced to choose between two overlapping identities that are both part of you and important to you. By saying he is not really Mexican, you are placing a box on him that is inherently restrictive and alienating. If he stayed with us, El Tri fans would be calling him a traitor or a gringo or whatever....hence being caught between two worlds. Same as some US fans now, including a portion that is doing it in a disrespectful manner to put it mildly. I felt very odd watching US play Bosnia (where I was born). I support both teams and can compartmentalize it without a problem because they almost never play each other. But with US-Mexico, it's unique. The teams are huge rivals and play against each other all the damn time. So these guys are bound to be called traitors by someone.
You might have been born in Bosnia, but these guys were born in the US. If playing in the country they were born and raised in makes them feel like a traitor, then why did their families move there in the first place? I’m not asking that to be some xenophobic douche. It’s a serious question.
If we lose a guy or two, it’s understandable, if we get swept out of all these guys it calls into question a lot of things like the colossal waste of resources and roster slots of players who as they hit prime, suddenly switch to El Tri. I'm not interested in the Mexican Fed, and our dual nationals treating us like the Yankees and Red Sox treated the Expos and the Indians in the aughts, once the players are proven, swoop in and steal them. That's nonsense. I get the nuance to it, I myself have spoken to it repeatedly over the years, as having taught at plenty of minority majority schools, and numerous times taught at schools where Latin-Americans are the majority, so I understand the draw of El Tri on an individual student level (again like 99% of my students who follow soccer support El Tri and not the USMNT). On multiple levels I get this, and it's important to note that any sizable minority historically has gone through the same experience: where do you think phrases/words like Little Italy, China Town, Japan Town came from? Immigration historically has meant habitual segregation into Irish, German, Jewish, Italian, Catholic, Latino, and African-American neighborhoods. Heck we just had a Hmong Vietnamese Teen win Gold in Gymnastics who grew up in a Hmong community in Minnesota. This is how immigration works. You build networks of communities and theoretically, enculturation eventually leads to you becoming a part of the greater community and moving out of immigrant neighborhoods. So I get it on a million levels, not just historical traditions with immigration, but also the unique relationship Mexican-Americans have with Mexico and America, which is difficult and fraught with all manner of nonsense, whether it's the Mexican American War, Zoot Suit Riots, or periodic anti-Latino Presidents and movements that have roiled the country much like the Chinese Exclusion Act and The Gentleman's Agreement marked early high water marks in anti-asian immigration hate. It's freaking complicated. That being said, we've got limited rosters for the U17's, U20's and U23's, and if it does turn out that Mexico turns the very best of the '19 and '21 classes of American prospects into El Tri prospects we have to do some deep thinking about how we handle things going forward. I don't think there are any clear avenues or easy answers to the potential mess this would create, but it's a fundamental problem if you're investing heavy resources into player development, and development within our system into players only to see them bail at the last exit for El Tri.
Many people don’t have a choice. I’m Italian-American born and raised in California and only went to Italy once as a youngster. My parents were both from Italy and they left the war torn country and met here. They raised my sisters and I and taught us to love America and be American. Myself , my family as well as maybe 20 first generation cousins all grew up here. We always spoke English even though our parents would speak to us in Italian. I finally went to Italy at an advanced age on a tour then moved to Florence a year later, a month after 9-11 for work. It’s weird as a lot of people couldn’t tell I was American when I lived there until they saw me in my white sneakers and jeans. I felt out of place growing up though as I was always Italian in the States and American when I moved to Italy. As for players, I agree though that you should choose the country you were born in if you have a shot and given the choice. I just read Gk David Ochoa switched allegiances to Mexico but I don’t think he would have ever played for the USA with their depth at the position. Giuseppe Rossi chose Italy but they just won the World Cup. He could have been a leader with the USA though and even a protagonist , playing in a few World Cup's. With Italy he was always on the cusp but never quite making a final roster of s given Euro or World Cup tournament. He did make a Confederation Cup roster , ironically scoring a goal for Italy against the USA.
So a couple guys have/will switch and people are questioning calling up Mexican-Americans for future U20 teams? Way to feed into to the narrative that Ochoa gave about not feeling welcome. FWIW, depth chart analysis seems to be a major factor for him. As for playing only for the country you were born in, Brooks was born in Germany to a father in the military. Sure, he got opportunities with us earlier in his career but he probably could have played for Germany at some point. Musah was born here by chance more than anything else. Grew up in 2 other countries. The point is that it is nuanced and a personal matter that deserves some modicum of respect.
I don’t know anyone who has said rule out Americans with Mexican heritage from the team. I don’t know a single fan who wasn’t proud to have Carlos Bocanegra, Herculez Gomez, Paul Arriola, and all the other Americans with Mexican heritage who have played for this team with pride. I don’t know anyone who said not to push for Ricardo Pepi to be on the team (at some point). Pushing a narrative that fans are hostile is not based in any sort of reality. But to ask a player, be honest with us, are we your first choice or are you holding out for Mexico? We’d love to have you part of this program but we don’t want to invest our time and energy if you aren’t committed to this team. Heck; that doesn’t go for Mexico. That goes for anyone from anywhere. Now, if we ignore a player, a player grows up in another system, or even in the case of Jonathan Gonzalez - “hey I want to go to the World Cup and you guys didn’t qualify.”... I’m not going to begrudge a player for that. I won’t like it. But it is what is. But if you accept a team’s graces... come up in the system... the coach and team have gone above and beyond to make you feel welcome... then... when it’s just a matter of convenience... you say, screw it, I’m bolting. Well, that’s just shady and dishonorable.
Wonder what El Tri fans will think of Ochoa on their national team after they see video of him celebrating with the USMNT after beating Mexico.....
I still don't get the idea that Mexico is going to just give him the job post their Ochoa retiring so making this call now, 17 months prior to the WC seems so premature. Is being the 3rd keeper at the WC and possibly nothing more in the future worth closing the door on the US?
we have undeniably had cultural problems within us soccer. however im having trouble seeing a straight line from there to ochoa or whoever not feeling comfortable in the sr team now. we have all heard the stories of youth teams not allowing players to speak spanish (or specifically not allowing coaches to speak spanish even to spanish speaking players), but we also havent had a youth team in two years. so we are talking about berhalters team specifically. if anything he throws out chances to dual nats too freely- including araujo and ochoa. but the fact is araujo and ochoa are no dest and musah. theres some level of entitlement if guys clearly at a lower level are feeling slighted. im sorry, i just cant get over ochoa- he had a spot on the freaking nations league semi/final roster before his first mls start. what the hell is the problem in strictly sporting terms? on that roster i imagine there were at least a half dozen guys who arent primarily spanish, or german speakers- but they play in spain and germany. so i have trouble imagining that sort of thing was a factor. so i am going to wildly speculate here. this is based on nothing. i am 100% guessing, to try to find what would be "unwelcoming" about that scenario other than being delusional about your own abilities. maybe in the locker room, or on the training pitch, berhalter says he hates mexico. we have to beat them. they are dirty players who dive and cry and kick you in the back of the head every chance they get. their fans are garbage people who chant homophobic slurs and throw bags of piss and bottles at us. ...in other words what most any of us say and/or think in relation to the rivalry. the important part of that though is being within the context of the game. my neighborhood is largely hispanic and ive never been taking the garbage can to the curb and worried my neighbor was going to throw a battery at my head. you all know exactly what i mean. when watching us/mex play youd think i was a maga-hatted trump supporter who thought he was soft on immigration. but that isnt real life. so maybe- as a young kid with all the identity issues you have (hell, in general but in this case having two cultural, literal and figurative "homes") its hard hearing that. maybe its harder to separate hearing it every day in practice. but now i have to point out its just as possible gregg is super respectful. maybe he never even mentions the opponent in any specific way whatsoever. a team theyre about to play is just a team theyre about to play. i dont now anything. i just cant imagine what the problem is. the reserves have to carry the ball bags? you think you should be ahead of someone else and can only conceive of that being race-based? as a fan who doesnt know anything the simplest explanation is generally where i go. berhalter brought ochoa into the team, an important roster with a trophy on the line. that wasnt a getting to know you mixer. it wasnt "come see how things feel"- that was a real call, and a call he accepted. he was in training every day, in that locker room at the half, in that huddle on the field between breaks in stoppage time, a teammate of those guys sweating and fighting and giving everything they had. and he felt comfortable enough to take a winners medal. so ho hum you want to check out your alternatives (literally the next week!), you say you werent comfortable after the fact? well, ok then. im sure mex will be much more sensitive about your american roots than you think we were. have a great time laughing it up with jogo and efra about how you spurned the yanks- youll have plenty of time on the bench (assuming all three of you ever end up on the same roster). hopefully youre more comfortable still not starting while getting runners up medals.
Kevin Paredes is a better prospect than Gomez? What are you watching? Gomez has a chance to play for Real Madrid one day. Cowell and Gomez are the US’ best prospects, full stop. I’ve graduated Reyna from this distinction but include Pepi. WE DO NOT WANT TO LOSE GOMEZ. He is the greatest American-born left back ever.
US youth teams don’t spend an extra-exorbitant time developing these guys. It’s not like they’re taking up residency at Bradenton. Just like the senior players most of their developmental time is spent at club level. I’d rather have the best eligible possible at these camps and tournaments so that iron can sharpen iron and our eventual Yanks know how to play with other talented players. Are we worried about the money or something?
The resource comment is a red herring because we are finally at a point where clubs are developing players on their own and are incentivized to develop, play, and sell young players. For Dallas, RSL, Philly, getting prospects on the national team boosts their stock in the international market but that can happen just as easily if a player plays for Mexico. After all, the best player ever produced in MLS is Canadian - Davies. The youth teams should be merit based. Try out a wide group, call up the ones that are the best and most ready for tournaments. Most youth prospects don't pan out and we can lose a player just as easily to a poor mentality and lack of work ethic (e.g. Carleton) or injuries (e.g. Zelalem) as to an eventual dual national switch. As for "sitting players down to find out their first choice" before we give them an opportunity, that just proves my point. It's discriminatory and puts negative pressure on 17, 18 year olds to make a difficult decision prematurely. It would also have the effect of pushing players away by giving up on guys that might stick with us. After all, our most significant dual national coup - Dest - had a stronger connection to the Dutch but decided to stick with us to repay the faith shown in him on youth teams and transition to the senior team together with his YNT buds.
It's a bit early to be claiming a 17 y/o USL player is better prospect than than an 18 y/o MLS player who has been dominating the same position. Also, Canada, unlike Mexico, is a domestic territory of MLS. KDLF and Scally are likely the best US prospects, right now. Each is poised to break through into the first team.
Are you referring to Gomez as the USL player? He is biding his time in USL before he goes to Europe when he turns 18. Elite prospect.
I didn't watch all of the games but GK Ochoa seemed to be kind of weak during the Olympic qualifiers.
Key word being prospect. A latin word meaning "hasn't done squat yet." I want to retain all of these dual-nationals. Of course I do. But we saw the Ochoa one coming. The rest of CONCACAF has already been funneling our prospects away from us. In fact, there are a remarkable number of US based youth players that have been called up by CONMEBOL youth teams recently too. The world is on notice that they're are good prospects here for them to recruit. Just like the USMNT is active in Germany and elsewhere with their recruiting, others are active here. Mexico is very aggressive. When I lived in Texas I remember FMF scouts at a girls U14 ODP tryout. Let me repeat that. Girls U14 ODP tryout. We just have to be active in recruiting those that our at the top of our wish list and WANT to play for us. Letting players know we're interested. Staying in contact. We heard Berhalter was in touch with Pepi very recently after he scored his hat-trick against LAG. Our pool is getting so deep that we can't provide EVERYBODY with opportunities. At right back Reynolds and Scally haven't been incorporated yet. Not to mention Che and others. So if we lose Araujo too.............what does it actually mean for us? A little less depth behind a guy that played 41 times for Barcelona last year. Ochoa has played for our U20s, U23s, and USMNT. So, if he doesn't want to represent us................adios. Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out. Its high time we stop pining for players who DON'T want to be part of our program. It reeks of an inferiority complex that we don't need and shouldn't have at this point. I would point out that there's a huge rumor mill in Mexico about these prospects just like there is in the states. They almost never get it right. It's like silly season with regards to transfers. Take the rumors with the appropriate grain of salt. Might Araujo and Gomez play for Mexico? Sure. Like with Ochoa, we've provided a hell of a lot of opportunities to Araujo. If he wants to switch, then I walk away feeling like we've done all we can do. Gomez? He's barely been involved with the USYNT/USMNT. Partly because other guys were picked ahead of him. These include Bello and Tolkin, who are both also still teenagers. We basically need to adopt the mindset of France. They have such a deep pool of prospects that they don't worry when a Tim Weah is lost. Holland didn't worry about losing Dest. England didn't worry about losing Musah. Germany didn't worry about losing all of the dual-nats to us that they have. They trust their developmental machine to keep producing. If we lose Gomez, we trust our developmental machine to keep producing left backs. He won't be the last one off the assembly line.
It’s not discriminatory to ask a player if we’re his first choice - or even if he’s willing to just commit to this program before we invest in him. That’s just wanting the romanticism of fighting the good fight and throwing out terms that devalues what is actually discriminatory. I don’t know a single fan who would have closed the door to him or anyone else if he wanted to be part of this program. Similarly, I’ve pushed for Kik Pierie... I’m all for wanting to get Pierie into this team just as I wanted Musah, Pepi, etc. But if he told Berhalter, “to be honest with you, If Holland calls me, I’m going with them.” Then, I think Berhalter should leave him alone. Let’s not pretend that Ochoa was in US camp for a one-off training stint. The man has been in our camp since 2018 at about every level. He was our starting goalkeeper in Olympic qualifying then received an honorary call up at the Nation’s League way before he actually earned it. So, there’s no way anyone can convince me that he was treated unfairly. Honestly, it’s a load of chickenshit to say this is malpractice on our part. I don’t recall anyone begrudging Efrain Alvarez for his choice - even though fans, of course, didn’t like his choice and teased him for playing for Mexico. At least, Efrain was open and honest about where he stood. And I don’t have a problem with Efrain accepting a US training call up like he did in December then kept with his decision to play with Mexico. Ultimately, I believe it would have been the harder choice for him to switch to the US at that point since he has been in the Mexico camp for so long. Also, I don’t have any animosity towards Jonathan Gonzalez... he wanted to go to the World Cup and the US failed to qualify. I don’t like the decision. But I get it. But, it’s a whole other animal, when the coach and the program has courted you along since you were a kid... trusted that you were committed to this program... gave you chances before your time... then, act like a complete Benedict Arnold.., yeah, that’s just dishonorable. To me, that means that David Ochoa’s word doesn’t mean much to him. He’s been a pirate all along. He can try to play the “woe is me, I’m a victim” card all that he wants. But that dog isn’t going to hunt. He was treated very fairly for years and advanced up the ladder very quickly.. probably receiving favoritism just because he is a dual-national. In short, goodbye to David Ochoa. I don’t wish him well other than in non-soccer areas of his life. In the future, I believe the lesson to be learned, it’s an important thing to determine who are the flight risks and who are committed to the program - no matter where they come from. And we should not keep calling in players who are not committed. It’s that simple. Note that I’ll accept anyone who wants to embrace the US but I’d like to know before we make a player our number one priority if they will bolt as soon as it’s convenient for them to do so.
I can see players being very upset about how Kreis handled Olympic qualifying as he did a very poor job. But is in regards to the entire group and not specifically the Mexican American players.