Does Lionel Messi have too many failures to be considered the greatest footballer of all time?

2009/10
2nd most prolific dribbler in la liga(3.3 dribbles per 90) behind Lionel messi(4.4 per 90)

This combined with 7 solo goals in 35 matches

Most proflic ball carrier in la liga(on par with Ronaldo nazario 1996/97)

Examples of Runs/progressive carries

50 yards through the centre of the opposition defence
Tenerife home





60~ yards run on the flank before playing a succesful through ball

6:15

When you realise he was (according to opta)the fastest player with and without the ball in the premier league 2007/08 anything less then a 5/5 doesnt make sense IMO
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/f...mier-League--Ronaldo-Lennon-AJ-Find-here.html


in his peak cristiano ronaldo was like Giacinto Facchetti on the flank and Gerd muller in the box

 

HAving watched a few games of Facchetti, not sure that's a comparison you want to make

 

There are some flat earthers and alien abduction theorists here so this is really no surprise



Winger or wing forward?

CR7 PL 2007/08 PFA winner
Whoscored avg rating:?

vs

Mo salah PL 2017/18 PFA winner
Whoscored rating:7.69

riyad mahrez 2015/16 PFA winner
Whoscored average rating:7.84

Gareth bale 2012/13 PFA winner
Whoscored average rating:7.92




Touches

Cristiano Ronaldo 2007/08
1938 touches in 2747 PL minutes
63.5 touches per 90

Gareth bale 2012/13
2924 PL minutes played(32.4 matches)
2096 touches
64.6 touches per 90

Mohammed salah 2017/18
1638 touches in 2920 PL minutes(32.4 PL matches)
50.5 touches per 90


Riyad mahrez 2015/16
1994 touches in 3052 PL minutes(33.9 PL minutes)
58 touches per 90


Passing

Cristiano Ronaldo 2007/08
1126 passes in 2747 Pl minutes
36.9 passes per 90

Gareth bale 2012/13
1131 passes in 2924 matches
34.9 passes per 90

Mohammed salah 2017/18
946 passes in 2920 PL minutes
29.1 passes per 90

Riyad mahrez 2015/16
1034 passes in 3052 PL minutes(33.9 matches)
30.5 passes per 90



Crosses

Cristiano Ronaldo 2007/08
118 crosses in 2747 PL minutes
3.86 attempted crosses per 90

Gareth bale 2012/13
272 crosses in 2924 PL minutes
8.39 attempted crosses per 90

Mohammed salah 2017/18
86 crosses in 2920 PL minutes
2.65 attempted crosses per 90

Riyad mahrez 2015/16
114 crosses in 3052 PL minutes
3.36 attempted crosses per 90





Defence
Attempted/Succesful tackles

Cristiano Ronaldo 2007/08
29 attempted tackles
23 successful tackles in 2747 PL minutes
79% success rate
0.75 successful tackles per 90

Gareth bale 2012/13
33 attempted tackles in 2924 PL minutes
24 successful tackles
72.7% success rate
0.74 successful tackles per 90

Mohammed salah 2017/18
12 attempted tackles in 2920 PL minutes
6 successful tackles in 2920 PL minutes
50% success rate
0.18 successful tackles per 90

Riyad mahrez 2015/16
53 attempted tackles
39 successful tackles
73% success rate
1.15 successful tackles per 90


Overall

Goals per 90
Cristiano Ronaldo 2007/08
Mo salah 2017/18
Gareth bale 2012/13
Riyad mahrez 2015/16


Touches per 90
Gareth bale 2012/13
Cristiano Ronaldo 2007/08
Riyad mahrez 2015/16
Mo salah 2017/18

Passes per 90
Cristiano Ronaldo 2007/08
Gareth bale 2012/13
Riyad mahrez 2015/16
Mo salah 2017/18

Crosses per 90
Gareth bale 2012/13
Cristiano Ronaldo 2007/08
Riyad mahrez 2015/16
Mo salah 2017/18

Dribbles per 90
Riyad mahrez 2015/16
Cristiano Ronaldo 2007/08
Mo salah 2017/18
Gareth bale 2012/13



Tackles per 90
Riyad mahrez 2015/16
Cristiano Ronaldo 2007/08
Gareth bale 2012/13
Mo salah 2017/18

https://www.premierleague.com/stats/player-comparison

C.Ronaldo was 22 years old for 2 thirds of this campaign(arguably 3 years removed from his peak)


I tend to agree with @Tropeiro on this one

Ronaldo in the 2007/08 PL would most probably be rated in the 8.3 to 8.4 range according to Whoscoreds algorithm
And its very arguably not even his 3rd best season



The only one(according to the data) who put up comparable/slightly superior numbers in a single PL season is Luis alberto Suarez(27 years old)
There is compelling evidence that he was for at least half that campaign one of the greatest players of all time
https://www.whoscored.com/Articles/dwAX5WSMd0yu0L3JheM9Mw/Show/Player-Focus-Unstoppable-Luis-Suarez
A step above Michel platini


The Uruguayan however never had to compete in Europe during 2013/14 and could reserve his energy for literally 1 Matchday per week with lots of time for recovery
(Liverpool 13/14 were out of all competitions pretty early during the season enabling them to concentrate just on the league)

Cristiano Ronaldo didn't just compete in the 2007/08 champions league
He excelled

His all round game was arguably of an even higher calibre in the CL 2007/08
then it was in the league

Without wanting to digress so much
Youre a supposed fan of context

A 22 year old Ronaldo put up these numbers with the profile of a winger
That's how he was viewed during the relevant time period because that's exactly what he was

 

Napoli clearly was not better than teams like La Quinta del Buitre era Real Madrid, who they faced back in 1987-1988 European Cup and lost. Besides, Maradona didn’t play many European Cup matches either due to the format during that period. I think it’s very impressive what Maradona did while playing in the most difficult league during that period with Napoli, a team that overperformed with the squad they had. They weren’t really better than Inter, Milan and Juventus. Teams like Hellas Verona, Sampdoria, Roma etc were able to give Napoli their run for money. I do not expect Maradona to win the European Cup during 1987-1988 facing teams like Real and during 1990-1991 season where he was past his prime and completely addicted to drugs. IMO there’s no reason to believe Maradona can’t win the CL playing for a better team compared to Napoli and the modern format would’ve helped him out.

 

Forget about the Champions league
Maradona would do nothing there


In the UEFA cup
He has 0 open play goals in 19 appearances

In the Uefa cup winners cup he has 7 non penalty goals in 7 matches

Impressive on first glance

Less impressive when you actually realise he scored a hattrick against Apoel(i remember you being very critical of them in the past imagine how bad they were in the 1980s)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1982–83_Cypriot_First_Division
Couldn't even win the 1983 edition of the Cypriot league

And a hattrick against FC Magdeburg 83/84 (5th place east German division)

What remains is one legendary performance in Europe against red star Belgrade(his iconic dribble and chip from outside the box)

 

First off, Napoli as a team themselves declined by 1990-91. Literally was an 8th place team in the Serie A during that season. Maradona was 30 years old, past his prime no doubt and him being completely involved in drugs didn’t help him either. I am aware that he was addicted to drugs during his Barca days, but he became more addicted to it during the 90s, which started to affect his performance significantly and his age didn’t help him either. He was totally unreliable by then. PSG was close to Bayern and Man City. The difference between Butragueno’s Real Madrid and Maradona’s Napoli were significant and that’s the team, prime version of Maradona faced in the European Cup. Neymar played well against Bayern(2021), but they weren’t the same 2020 version. He played well against Man City in the first leg(first half), but was a failure throughout with his dribbling and ball retention being nullified. His finishing was pretty terrible too. I’m not claiming Neymar is terrible in the CL, but very inconsistent despite the fact he played for superclubs. Tropeiro is overrating a player who isn’t really superior to Ronaldinho or R9, let alone compare him to players like Maradona. I’m a fan of Neymar, but I feel it’s pretty stupid to compare him to GOAT tier Maradona, which Tropeiro did.

 

That's a pretty bad record, huh?

It wasn't according GoalImpact for example.

Bayern had their best defenders and midfielders, they just lacked goalscoring force to score the goals they needed, but they were pretty much outplaying PSG hardly. The same for City who looked superior in the big majority of the moments. They were the two best rated Elo club in the moment and with a way higher GI.

PSG had no midfield to compete, a relatively new manager and many injuries in comparison.

Even then Neymar managed to get some underrated moments:

1:36.
Recover the ball, quick 1-2, carrying led to a assist. Team edge?

and similar play against United in the Old Trafford:

5:49
Help the defense, recover the ball, dribble, long pass, enter the area and goal.

These are big moments. No "magic" ball retention involved. Just goals worthy. Of course he did had other moments as well with slalom dribblings included, specially in the home match vs Bayern, against City as well.

and what about Messi, is he consistent in the UCL? How many matches he lost for three or more goals for example doing little, nothing, walking on the pitch etc in the last years compared to Neymar? Messi is looking good when his team dominates, that is in almost 100% of the cases and when his team dominates the territory which is again in almost 100% of the cases. In 2017 it was already Neymar winning the PSG match for Barcelona and playing his way against Juventus with Messi being largely anonymous.

Messi has been very inconsistent in the UCL. Barcelona with Messi as a free role player has also been a very inconsistent team in La Liga, against a very weak Atlético and a very weak Real Madrid.

You that started comparing Maradona to Neymar and in fact overrating Maradona when you said he would make the difference for PSG if was there instead of Neymar (as Maradona was the much better passer and finisher according to you), which has no base in the reality of the facts.

Maradona scored 0 open play goals in the 19 matches in the UEFA cup if Carlitos said is true, scored against minnors in third level Euro competitions and was a failure in the European Cup as well. His club carrer overall is a bit overrated if you ask me.

Neymar has 0.44 assists and 0.58 non-PK goals per 90 minutes in his UCL resumen: https://fbref.com/en/jogadores/69384e5d/intl_cup/Neymar-Estatisticas-de-Copas-Internacionais all of it while being also commited in his defensive efforts and in the ball progression duty as well.

The case of Maradona as GOAT will always be based on his 1986 form, on his attractive style of play and early hype and much less so in what he really brought consistently to the matches and competitions.

 

This dude is really a special type of moron


Forget about real Madrid 1987/88 for gods sake


Maradona couldn't score from open play in the freaking UEFA cup


0 open play goals in 2 matches against Toulouse 86/87(3rd place ligue 1)

0 open play goals in 2 matches vs PAOK 88/89(3rd place Greek division)

0 open play goals in 2 matches vs leipzig 88/89(5th place east german division)

0 open play goals in 2 matches vs Bordeaux 88/89(13th place ligue 1)

0 open play goals in 2 matches vs Juventus 88/89(4th place Serie A)

0 open play goals in 2 matches vs Bayern Munich 88/89(bundesliga winners)

0 open play goals in 2 matches vs Stuttgart 88/89(5th place bundesliga)

0 open play goals in 2 matches vs sporting lisbon 89/90(3rd place Portuguese primera division)

0 open play goals in one match vs FC wettingdon 1989/90 (so crap they couldn't qualify from the first stage of the Swiss league)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989–90_Nationalliga_A

0 open play goals in 2 matches vs werder Bremen 89/90(7th place bundesliga)

Maradona WAS DEFINITELY a more iconic/era defining player in his time then Neymar is for this era but for me that has more to do with intangibles then results,end product,consistency etc

With alot of those pre modern era all timers alot hinges on one or 2 isolated(so called career defining) moments.

Platini scoring at almost 2 gpg in Euro 1984
Maradona (with the hand of fluke)scoring 1 gpg in WC 1986

Without it the legacy falls like a deck of cards

 

In general, I don't think this is an exercise worth doing anyway.

It's crazy to place the majority of the blame on one player when his team fails, like it is being done here with Neymar, then you have posters trying to defend the player.

Chelsea, the eventual winner, was playing poorly enough that their manager got fired and their new manager won the UCL. Not the first time it's happened to them.

It certainly isn't evidence that the Chelsea players are necessarily the best in the world (except maybe Kante, whom I rate highly).

My point is, it's generally a bad idea to draw conclusions about players based on their team's knock-out tournament performances.

 

I'm sorry old friend, but how does your logic here make any sense??

Yes, Football is a team sport, but that doesn't change the fact that it is easily observable when an individual player is great, good, average, or bad. Of course, my fundamental problem with this convenient logic, is that the desired logical conclusion is obviously (and forcibly) that this is a team sport, and ergo not even Messi at his best could have realistically changed the outcome...

I mean, I don't know how else to say this; your argument simply doesn't add up...

Messi vs. Chelsea 2009

Messi vs. Chelsea 2012

Messi vs. Atletico Madrid 2016

Messi vs. Paris Saint Germain 2017

Messi vs. Roma 2018

Messi vs. Liverpool 2019

All games that Barcelona could have easily won if Messi had been slightly better; and yes, Barcelona did actually win vs. Chelsea 2009, but of course that was largely thanks to Ovrebo and Iniesta, as Messi did little to nothing throughout. At any rate, the reality is that Messi has lacked malleability and adaptability, and this has been consistently and comprehensively exposed by the top tier clubs; as a fan of Messi, I was invested enough in modernist culture that I denied this self-evident reality for some 3 to 4 years, but eventually, I grew out of the culture and the reality became rather self-evidently obvious.

 

More modernist propaganda, as usual... I often wonder if you get paid actual money to do the amount of prolific propaganda work that you do, because with money not in the equation, I seriously fail to se the point or incentive in idol-worshipping modernity to the unhinged extent that you do; surely you must be intelligent enough to see the error of your modernist ways...

At any rate, in Maradona's time it was tradition for the great players to save their better form for the most prestigious tournament i.e. The World Cup. Modern conditioning did not existed. Modern referee protection did not existed. The players had to save or protect themselves, since the referees did not do enough of that. This is why Romario scored 0 goals at Champions League 1993/94, but of course then he scored 5 goals in 7 games; all of Romario's 5 goals are open play goals, if I'm not mistaken.

Michel Platini won the Champions League in 1985, but could not also win the Serie A in 1985.

Michel Platini won the Serie A in 1984, but did not even competed in the Champions League in 1984; Juventus finished in 2nd place in Serie A 1982/83, which means that Juventus did not qualified for the Champions League; but then of course Platini was great at Euro 1984, at Cup Winners Cup 1984, and at Serie A 1984, across all the formats, which was an extraterrestrial accomplishment in the correct context of that era.

In the context of the 1980s (and this remains true throughout the first half of the 1990s), it was not realistically possible for players to be at an optimum physical fitness level across all the formats, which is why players and clubs had to prioritize; for example, that is why Serie A's Coppa Italia and La Liga's Copa del Rey were not at all taken seriously at the time, which was no longer the tradition in recent modern years where the modernist physical conditioning makes it possible to realistically compete at full capacity in all the formats, at all times.

In the context of his time, Maradona when fully or sufficiently fit was virtually a perfect player in both the World Cup and the Serie A... I mean, do you seriously think that the Champions League between 1985 and 1990, was somehow more difficult than the Serie A or the World Cup?

Champions League Circa 1985 - 1990:

Juventus 1984/85.

Steaua Bucarest 1985/86.

Porto 1986/87.

PSV Eindhoven 1987/88.

These Champions League title winning clubs are not giants, and the Champions League at the time was not some uniquely difficult cup format to win...

At any rate, it is painfully self-evident that Maradona, provided he is sufficiently fit, could have easily replicated his World Cup form in any format, but again, Maradona was a physically intermittent drug addict who played in an era of far less perfect physical conditioning, which is why Maradona's form is intermittent in all formats; the fact still is, that at his best, he was clearly superior to even the best version of Neymar, which I think was the sensible argument that was made.

Maradona in Serie A 1988/89 replicates his World Cup 1986 in several games, but lacks the physical durability to do it week in, week out; but then again, nobody actually performances at their best week in, week out, in the context of the 1980s. But at his best, Maradona looks like the same player in the Serie A or the World Cup; the Champions League was too exclusive, only the winner of the Serie A qualified, which did not allowed Maradona sufficient games to show his better form.

Cristiano Ronaldo never looks like the same player; Cristiano Ronaldo vs. Uruguay 2018 is a mediocre player; Cristiano Ronaldo vs. Juventus 2018 is a perfect goal scoring machine. Cristiano Ronaldo doesn't have the valid excuses of Maradona. Cristiano Ronaldo quite self-evidently lacks the innate ability of true genius players like Maradona, Cruyff, Platini, etc. You can deny that until the end of time, but 'haters' like me do not really get anything out of 'hating' Cristiano Ronaldo; I mean, the reality is that Cristiano Ronaldo will never enjoy enough statistical propaganda that an experienced fan will not see his limited ability as a player at any given point in his career.

 

I'm not sure how much of this I agree with. Personally, I see little to no difference in Maradona's performances in Europe and those in Serie A and international football during this period in his career (after the 1986 World Cup until his first drug suspension). All of the critiques of his European record seem to be based on a lack of open play goals rather than the actual performances (which seems counterproductive in evaluating a player like Maradona who was never defined by scoring goals), while failing to mention that Napoli as a team barely broke 1 goal per game (so much for weak competition, Carlito) and Maradona himself assisted well over half of their open play goals. Having watched most of Maradona's European performances for Napoli, I think that the Toulouse and Madrid ties are the only real stains on his résumé while the entire 1988-89, 89-90 and 90-91 European campaigns were stellar.

As for Cristiano Ronaldo, I agree that he has always been somewhat limited, but I think that the main reason he seems so incredibly mediocre at international level, particularly in the KO stages of major international tournaments against quality opposition is that he is no longer being spoon-fed chances and thus, more attention is placed on his general play, which is actually identical at club level but glossed over due to his "end product". I recommend rewatching his three consecutive awful major international tournament performances in his prime (the 2008 Euros, 2010 World Cup and 2012 Euros), particularly the 2010 KO stage match vs Spain where he was arguably right in the peak of his career at the age of 25 and fully fit, to remind oneself of the astronomical difference between him and someone on the level of Maradona. Unfortunately, since then, propaganda and revisionism have propelled him amongst the greats when has is in my view, never been any more than a normal world-class player like Luis Suárez or Franck Ribéry based on quality and not quantity.

 

Low grade post


Peak winger Franck ribery
2012/13
League+CL


11 goals+20 assists
129 team goals
150 dribbles completed
4.5 dribbles completed per 90 in Bundesliga
2.3 dribbles completed per 90 in the CL
2967 mins played(32.9 matches)
https://www.whoscored.com/Players/9016/History/Franck-Ribéry

0.94 goals+assists per 90
24% direct involvement in teams goals
4.55 dribbles completed per 90

Vs

Peak winger Cristiano Ronaldo
2006/07 League+CL

20 goals+21 assists
107 team goals
132 dribbles completed
2.74 dribbles completed per 90 in the PL
4.47 dribbles completed per 90 in the CL
3738 minutes played(41.5 matches)


0.98 goals+assists per 90
38% direct involvement in teams goals
3.1 dribbles completed per 90





Peak goalscorer Gerd muller
League+European cup+cup winners cup

1971/72 and 1972/73
92 goals+25 assists
7199 minutes played(80 matches)
1.46 goals+assists per 90

Vs

Peak goalscorer Cristiano Ronaldo
League+champions league
2013/14 and 2014/15

106 goals+37 assists
7697 minutes played(85 matches)
1.68 goals+assists per 90


https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/cristiano-ronaldo/leistungsdatendetails/spieler/8198
https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/franck-ribery/leistungsdatendetails/spieler/22068
https://www.transfermarkt.com/gerd-muller/leistungsdatendetails/spieler/35604

 

Wow, my mind is immediately swayed by a few goal and assist stats. I have no care for stats in my evaluation of players, preferring instead watch football using my eyes and draw my conclusions from there. Also, I didn't mention Müller in my post. Peak Luis Suárez was a similar goal threat to Cristiano Ronaldo while taking fewer shots, being a less selfish, more creative and involved player who was more competent in tight spaces. From Cristiano Ronaldo's generation alone, Messi, Neymar, Hazard, Xavi, Iniesta, Robben, Pirlo and Suárez (just to name a few) have all had better international careers than him. Among these players, I rate him somewhere near the bottom after watching him for the last decade or so.

 

The problem is anyone can say anything
Proving it is a whole different thing all together

Do you even know Luis suarezs peak?

Liverpool fans will say 2013/14
Barcelona fans 2015/16

Luis Suarez 2013/14 EPL
2.8 dribbles per 90
2.7 key passes per 90
38.4 passes per 90
2 fouls won per 90

Luis Suarez 2015/16
1.2 dribbles per 90
26.5 passes per 90
1.6 key passes per 90
1.7 fouls won per 90

Cristiano Ronaldo la liga 2009/10
4.87 dribbles per 90
40.4 passes per 90
2.7 passes per 90
3.2 fouls won per 90

119 - Real Madrid-target Pedro León completed the third-most dribbles in La Liga 09/10, behing Messi (217) & C. Ronaldo (133). Quick-feet

— OptaJose (@OptaJose) June 10, 2010

60 - David Silva created 60 goalscoring chances from open play in La Liga in 09/10, only 3 players (Ronaldo,Xavi,Kaká) created more. Threat

— OptaJoe (@OptaJoe) June 30, 2010

For the Barcelona fanboys and the new strand of anti modern football fans prevalent on this forum Cristiano Ronaldo at his best dribbled at three times the rate of Suarez in 2015/16

And scored more solo goals in 1 season for real Madrid then Suarez did in his entire Barcelona career

 

I won't say modern football is bad, but I do prefer the way it was in the past when the amounts of money were less absurd, when the game was generally tougher (more of a man's game), and when players actually had time to think on the ball.

It's still great fun watching Xhaka and Pogba trying to impose their game, dueling it out like they did in the last 16 of the 2021 Euros, but these two players are almost unwanted at their own clubs. The way the game is played now, given the importance of pressing and of exploiting existing space, has turn these kind of players into a luxury and they only seem to have some room to express themselves on the international stage, where the pace of the game is a bit slower than at the club level.

 

I think we're on the complete opposite ends as far as this is concerned.

One of my favourite things about the modern game is the pace at which it operates. I sometimes watch the MLS and their pace is more akin to the 2000s, when football was a lot slower.

Generally, I just prefer faster paced game because I enjoy it more as an entertainment. I also feel like those that can dictate the tempo in this environment, or perform at that pace better than others can, are indicative of their superior skills to their peers.

 

When I watch English first division games of the 1970s, it's very fast-paced and action-filled. This "everything was so much slower in the past" just isn't true on that scale at all.

If you compare a 2021 Serie A game with a 1970s First Division game, in my experience, the 70s First Division game will come out on top easily in terms of pace, action and thrill.

 

This is one of the superstars of that age
Arguably the worst passing display ever recorded of any classical/modern era player


The reality is if anyone of
Lionel messi,Cristiano Ronaldo,Neymar jr,Ronaldo de lima,Rivaldo,Ronaldinho gaucho,Eden hazard,Dejan savecevic,Paul Gascoigne,Luis Figo,Arjen Robben,franck ribery are operating at optimum version and fully motivated they would complete minimum 40 dribbles in a single match against this lousy,drunk,dysfunctional and disorganised car crash of a level of 'football'

Bear in mind this is supposed to be just George bests highlights but the comp maker couldn't help including a few bits and pieces of comedic action from the rest of the game



People need to watch games
Like really watch them
The average Players(even the special ones) in those 1960s/1970s top leagues were making errors in basic ball controls on such regular basis that under 14s in the academy wouldn't make today

These so called reactionary millennials arent the first to notice that even the top players today are on a completely different level to those previous generations

In 1997 Peter schemiecel now infamously remarked that the Manchester United side of his time(that lost the league to Arsenal)
Would trash Sir Matt busbys 1968 European cup winning team 10-0
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sport/football/fa_carling_premiership/213059.stm

He only apologised for political reasons due to pressure from higher ups citing it was disrespectful

He didn't however retract the reasons that lead him to make that statement( such as evolutions in tactics and a total disparity in levels of fitness )

 

The dinosaur relics here will disappear so enough
Only a fool would argue that there are no more strides left to be made in improving this sport(tactically or technically)

10 years from now Leadleaders essays will be just about as relevant as the words of Charles H. Duell in 1889
"Everything that can be invented has been invented"

 

That's interesting Greg. I can't say I've watched a lot of 70s game, mainly just the big games, and I also haven't watched a lot of 2021 Serie A games either.

So, while I disagree that the 1970s game was fast-paced and action-filled, I will admit my experience with the period is limited.

My general impression of the older games as slower is that players seem to have way more time to think on the ball than in today's game, especially from deeper positions. When I watched the 1970 and 1974 World Cup games, for example, defenders and deep midfielders can consistently have quite a bit of time to look up and pick out a pass. There were definitely a long balls being played to "in-position" if not quite "stationary" players back then. I remember being surprised at how open someone like Gerson consistently was.

I will admit though that it was at times quite refreshing to see how open the games were. Teams back then, even the most elite ones, had no way of pressuring their opponents at all phases of the game, or dictate the tempo for an entire 90 minutes. This allowed both teams to play closer to their level and preferred style, and the clash in styles were probably more interesting to watch.

If you play against 2011 Barcelona for example, chances are they will dictate the game, and you will just have to make the best of it. Now, all elite teams have similar guiding principles, if not quite the same methodology.

If we look back even further, I've watched 64 and 65 European Cup finals in full (this is a few years now though) and even the so called "negative" catenaccio Inter Milan was a lot more open than the myth would've suggested. The 2010 Inter Milan team was more conservative, relative to their era, in my opinion.

However, I will say that at the very top level, whether you are looking at the highly-controlled system of Pep's Barcelona or the 120mph Mourinho's Madrid, the speed at which they operated, with unmatched accuracy and precision compared to the older teams, was simply something that I've never seen in the dozens of big games of yesteryears that I've watched.

 

Excellent observations, as usual.

Euro 2021, as a result of the decline in tactical cohesion, is almost like a time machine into the past; Paul Pogba immediately becomes the player he should be... In sharp contrast, in the clock-like perfect tactical context of club football, it is virtually impossible for Pogba to find his place in the world.

The football pitch is simply too full, too condensed, and the tactical fouls are not sufficiently punished with a card designed for/against tactical fouls, which is why modern football is essentially a tactical foul hegemony. Kante can fin his place in this modern world, but there simply isn't the freedom of expression for artists like Pogba. Football becomes a lesser sport as a result.

 

Old friend, I just watched Jurgen Klinsmann vs. Czechoslovakia; so much better than Cristiano Ronaldo ever was in a 1-0 low margin competitive knock out game. Klinsmann created a penalty kick out of nothing, after dribbling through 2 or 3 defenders; this was the 1-0 goal that decided the game. Of course, Klinsmann just was spectacular throughout the game, in a way that Cristiano Ronaldo never is in games that are 1-0.

West Germany was not really better than Czechoslovakia, Rudi Voller was out of the game after his red card vs. Netherlands, and to make matters more difficult for West Germany, the in form Lothar Matthaus was surprisingly quiet in this game; it was Jurgen Klinsmann who basically 'carried' West Germany.

Underrated performance; Klinsmann's show of skill would be a classic legendary status performance, if it were a Brazil, Argentina, Italy, Netherlands, player. Germans seem to get automatically discredited by virtue of Germany's long standing tradition of system play.

At any rate, Klinsmann vs. Czechoslovakia is precisely the type of iconic performance that I always (because I was manipulated by very aggressive propaganda) expected of Cristiano Ronaldo in a minimal margin 1-0 knock out game at the World Cup; but unfortunately, the reality is that Cristiano Ronaldo just doesn't have it in him to elevate his game when the game is defensively solid and tactically sound i.e. the opposite of Spain World Cup 2018.

 

I think it must surely be impossible for 1970s football to be faster than 2021 football, but on the other hand, I must partially agree with you; I think 1990s football looks faster, because tactical fouls are not disproportionally stopping the game all the time, which allows for a much more fluid and continuous aesthetic or entertainment as far as dribbling versus defending is concerned, which I think is probably what makes it look more dynamic and even 'faster' in comparison to 2021 football.

French League 1990/1991, Montpellier vs. Paris Saint Germain (4-0).

That is one of my all time favorite games to watch; I must have watched that game at least 4 different times as of this date, and my perception is virtually identical to yours; it very much looks faster, more action packed, infinitely more diverse, more unpredictable, etc.

I mean, honestly, I am always fascinated by the fact that intelligent fans like @poetgooner cannot see the mistake in thinking that doing X faster, means that Y player is by definition superior; this is not how reality works in any field not the fast food industry, but for some reason 'modernist' fans insist on this self-evident fallacy.

Generally, I just prefer faster paced game because I enjoy it more as an entertainment. I also feel like those that can dictate the tempo in this environment, or perform at that pace better than others can, are indicative of their superior skills to their peers.

It should say something, with all due respect, that modernist fans like @poetgooner (bold letters quote above) literally apply fast food logic to football; the idea that doing X faster, is literally indicative of the superior skills of Y player versus Z player.

In reality, good quality restaurants take their time, and serve an expensive meal; it is the cheap fast food restaurants that must do everything as fast as possible, but for some reason this is apparently a good thing in football terms, which is simply not true at all in my book.

I mean, I actually respect when modernist fans admit that they like fast food football, but my point is; do they actually realize that their argument literally is fast food football??

In my opinion, the modernist argument is essentially and quite literally fast food football, that is, football made as utilitarian and as mechanic as possible, to be easily consumed by an increasingly (chronically) unhealthy consumer base; I mean, this argument defeats itself, doesn't it?

It makes no sense when applied to restaurants; superior restaurants are slower, not faster.

And it would appear to make no sense when applied to football; superior football is more diverse and unpredictable in terms of tempo of play, versus the monotonous machine-like one note high speed of modern football.