Is it too early to talk about Gary Kleiban’s failure as an agent?

I think you read into my comment more than intended. I wasn't delving into success ratios or who goes where and when (although I disgaree on a techicality to what you say about only top prospects going to Europe as nonpros). I would agree that only the top prospects go as non pros AND get the red carpet treatment. That, of course, helps their progress. The others have to fight their way up from the bottom (when did Hoppe go to Europe? I don't believe he was a top prospect...certainly not at the level of a McKennie, Pulisic or Reyna. was he a pro? Not sure but I don't think so.) countless others have gone as well but we usually don't often hear of them.

I think it is a statement of fact but you may disagree (and I may be wrong). Reyna, Pulisic and McKennie all had ties to Europe or, in the case of Pulisic, the support of his father (in Europe) that eased the transition from life in USA to Europe. That does not imply that it made it easy, just easier for those three than it would have been if they did not have that connection. Pulisic even made a comment about how difficult it was for him and that was WITH his father. (sorry I don't have the link and am not going to look for it). I think it is well documented and fairly well accepted by many that there are hardships that go along with the choice to move from the US to Europe (regardless of age).

I am not saying that any one, or all would have failed if they didn't have that support, but I am saying that I think it is interesting that our three most successful young players ALL had that support and I do believe it was an advantage. People in the past have railed on Donovan for his weakness but he went to Germany ALONE at 16 when Europe was far less friendly to US players (not to mention the lack of skype, zoom etc). Would he have succeeded if his mother had been able to travel with him (I believe he was estranged from his father at the time?) Would he have succeeded in today's Europe where he failed before? No way of knowing but I believe both are interesting questions.

I believe it is also interesting to note that Adams also had support in Marsch's presence while getting settled at RBL. Just like the others, I am not saying he would not have been successful without Marsch but I don't think it hurts. (By the way, I think it is beneficial to Aaronson to have Marsch as a coach). A connection to home is important to young players and can be a key part of the equation for success.

Of course Sargent didn't have the same support and he has done quite well for himself (imo), so there are no hard and fast rules. I still think that Sargent had/has it easier than Donovan (and was 2 years older) but that is really a deviation and I don't mean to take anything away from Sargent. Some people are more resilient than others and will succeed where others fail but

(correct me if I am wrong, Marsch was an assistant at the beginning of Adam's time at RBL....wasn't he?)

 

I think Hoppe was on par with McKennie for Schalke. He was signed on a free and put on the U19 team. I don't think McKennie had the kind of recruitment that Pulisic or Reyna had. Dortmund gave Pulisic's dad a job and also brought over his cousin to play with him.

I think you make too much of Mckennie being a kid in Germany. He was very young and it wasn't long. That the kids played soccer might be the reason he is a pro soccer player and not a college linebacker. But I don't think McKennie spoke German or knew anyone in the Ruhr area.

Reyna was wined and dined and given a lot of money. But, because of Covid, has been more isolated than any recent American. So, that he has made it is not because he had his family with him or a lot of friends. Even someone like Zyen Jones could hang out with Nick, Christian, Haji and Wes. Reyna has had to be alone alone.

Adams was lucky to have Marsch as Leipzig is kind of isolated from the other Americans.

I do think many of these players have each other and social media and easy communications. When Donovan was in Germany, a call the USA was a fortune. There was no WhatsApp or Instagram or anything.

Donovan didn't have the ability to function well. I think Llanez is also homesick and Steffan was too. It cannot be easy. I was surprised when Donovan fans were laughing at Llanez having troubles in Holland. Like, didn't your favorite go through the same thing?

 

Didn't we learn soon after those stories first came out that both Llanez to Wolfsburg and Mendez to Ajax were pretty much on starvation wages? Like legitimately, no exaggeration, poverty level minimum wage type money.

And people justified that at the time saying that it was worth it because they could prove themselves through those opportunities and get paid based on it.

Well how did that work out in hindsight, is Llanez tearing it up at Wolfsburg, and Mendez tearing it up at Ajax? Are they both on the verge of being signed to massive contracts?

Was the short term pain worth it? Or might they have been better off at lesser clubs earning more money? And maybe even with easier paths to their respective first teams?

Professional athletes' careers are short, they have a small window to get paid and then poof it's gone. Some guys only have a few years as pros. There's also the constant risk of serious injury or any number of things going wrong.

I think it's pretty much universally recognized for all pro athletes that their best course is to get as much money as they can while they still can.

Given that, are these two case studies examples of Kleiban being a good agent or of Kleiban being a failure as an agent?

Can someone find the $$ figures for Llanez and Mendez? I remember it being shockingly low but I don't want to speculate.

Let's keep in mind these were top prospects, big time youth national team guys.
Let's also keep in mind that even below average MLSers on homegrown deals can make six figures. Ignoring the proven Morris/Zardes types, Tommy Thompson a sometimes-starter for a bad Quakes team and made $175k in 2019 at age 24, and just signed a new deal. Pomykal made $105k in 2019, and then signed a four year deal. Guys like Aaronson McKenzie Busio and Vines were just under $100k (this is all 2019)... same with Omir Fernandez and even Seattle's AOC. And Aaronson and McKenzie ended up in much better situations in Europe as well. Even their U-20 teammate Aboubacar Keita made $110k in 2019!
https://mlsplayers.org/resources/salary-guide

 

I think Gary is a dick just as much as everyone else here but after talking to and learning from agents at much bigger agencies this actually opened my eyes a little about the complete misconception you’re talking about here.

The truth is that academy players in Germany, whether foreign or not, make wages comparable to Uly and Mendez’s. Players in Germany don’t make any money until they actually start to get some first team appearances and the club offers them a new contract. So all of our yanks abroad still playing in German academies are making the same amount that Uly and Mendez did. It doesn’t matter whether you are at a big club like Bayern or a club in the 2 Bundesliga, you are going to make Germany’s standard academy players wage.

You will get very few exceptions to this (Gio Reyna and Josh Sargent made good money right away) but if you haven’t done anything at the MLS level, don’t have a major family name, or have been a star in a youth World Cup then you are going to make German academy wages which putting it lightly suck.

This is why you often see some kids hesitate to move abroad. An MLS homegrown contract even at the league minimum is going to be a lot more than what a player would be offered by any German club to join their academy. You won’t get paid more than $3k a month if you’re very lucky until you break into the first team.

This preconception that going to Europe means more money and more success needs to stop. More often than not going to Europe is a huge career and financial risk that a player takes. Sadly we see most of our players who go abroad flop and have to come back home with very little to show for it.

In regards to Alex Mendez’s salary at Ajax you’re wrong about that as well. Because Mendez does not hold an EU passport Ajax has to pay him the Eredivise required minimum non EU salary of $518,782. Like it or not, Gary got the kid paid. All of our Americans in the Netherlands including Chris Gloster and Richie Ledezma, are making the same money. Americans without Euro passports have very little access to the Netherlands because outside of the 4 big clubs there they can’t afford to pay a non EU player unless they’re confident that the player will end up being a star at their club.

I am still very much so on the Gary Kleiban hater train but I do want to make sure that we present credible arguments and facts when we bash him

 

I was thinking this the other day. Uly Llanez and Alex Mendez were about to sign homegrown deals with the Galaxy. Instead, they were shipped to Europe arranged the Kleiban bros unbeknownst by Dennis te Kloese and the LA Galaxy organization.

te Kloese then fired Brian Kleiban when he found out that they did this under his nose and rightfully so.

Now, can someone say Llanez's and Mendez's player progression has been any better in Europe than signing homegrown deals in MLS?

Personally, I think Gary Kleiban is a grifter, like the My Pillow guy. Brian? Not as much, but he isn't this glorified talented youth soccer coach either.

 

Hard to say whether they would;d have been better off because of the team they played for. LAG has been pretty bad at pushing players up to the first team and into starters. Had they been with a few other teams I'd guess they'd be ahead but with Llanez it seems more than soccer related so it's hard to compare. He also looked good with the national team no matter how he looked with his Euro teams. This is also why I am always for players in sort of bad situations or slumps to national team minutes. I bet they love getting back with their fellow Americans and not worrying about cutthroat club competitions and cliques. Can you imagine how Pulisic and Sargent must be looking forward to getting a mental break (supposing their teams don't screw them by not releasing them somehow).

 

Is Carleton even a player anymore? Last I saw no one in the states wanted him and his agent was pushing a sad PR on Euro clubs a few months back. No takers it appears.

 

1419483070198173696 is not a valid tweet id

Lol

 

Hoppe is a 6'3" technical and determined player. No wonder he is doing well. Mendez and Llanez are both limited physically and lack work rate. Tough to pull the one-way offensive player trick in modern soccer.

 

I don't want to be fair to Kleiban but Hoppe was a midfielder at Galaxy and probably wasn't that amazing at it. AZ Barca moved him to striker and he took off that last year in the DA. Now you want to bash Gary for not moving him okay but I see this as a -.5 instead of a whole -1.

 

I dunno I am giving them the whole -1 especially since Brian keeps putting out YouTube’s and tweets despite having a relationship with players in the much expanded pool. Just sleazy all around.

 

Just want to state for the record that this tweet and my posting it here both pre-date Hoppe's game winning goal to send the US to the semifinals...

 

Did his growth spurt hit after he left Galaxy? Because he has a striker's body and that seems obvious now.

Also, Hoppe seems very determined and has great work rate. That is why he will achieve a lot more in his career than a lot of players that seemed more talented ain the youth ranks.

 

He was always above average sized as he is now. He also had the frame of an 8 like McKennie/Kayo/Tessmann. At Galaxy he would’ve been a center mid competing in the team that used Efra and Mendez as their 8/10 en route to two straight DA finals runs. Mendez was one many considered a YNT snub at the time and we don’t really need to give an explanation for Efra. Was Hoppe probably good enough for a backup spot? Probably, but if he was at Galaxy he wouldn’t have developed well on the bench every game

Hoppe is a good argument for the removal of HG territories. A talented player who’s in a territory where the club has an overload at their position and needs to find a new club

 

Yea, homegrown territories are kid gloves that need to go. That's an obvious improvement that can be made.

 

Not a fan of HG Territories, but at least now their should be 2 LA options for the vast majority of LA players with Galaxy and LAFC.

 

The territories haven’t stopped tons of kids from vacating so cal. Still, you can see how even more may succeed if they got rid of the territories

 

The territory doesn’t expand to San Diego which is why they get raided by the other MLS academies. A couple LA kids have gotten out but for the most part unless they want to leave for Europe they have hard times signing HG deals

 

From what I've read about Kleiban being over 6 foot was probably seen as a negative. He always came across as one of those guys that went way overboard on prioritizing ball skills to the point of actively penalizing guys that had size/athleticism.

 

The irony was that more and more it seems that Kleiban was simply a good recruiter.

A great youth coach would have taken the more athletic players and coached them up.

 

didnt he also basically recruit the best kids from various programs?

 

Is Kleiban representing Xuhxuh?

 

We can point to things about Brian Kleiban's coaching of recruiting that we disagree with, but there's no disputing that so many players he's worked with have gone on to pro and collegiate soccer. We can also level similar criticisms against other coaches who pick the "types" they're comfortable with. I try to separate my judgement of his coaching ability from his unprofessional and irresponsible participation in his brother Gary's moving LA Galaxy academy players away from the club.

Many other club coaches recruit young players and work with them for an extended time. But how many of them can say that from a group that started at age 9 or 10 three or four played professionally and then another three or four played NCAA D1 ball? Criticizing the players' pro pathways is fair game but the mere fact that so many from one or two teams went as far as they did is worth highlighting.