Does Lionel Messi have too many failures to be considered the greatest footballer of all time?

@leadleader https://www.squawka.com/en/Thiago-h...2P4hasit5HJGogUOhNIfNo7iIiEqvH5Dm9PJoYUUhCBSs I guess eventually, the players themselves will start finding the sport boring.

 

Match fixing at its absolute finest

#OnThisDay in 1992 the Napoli defence indulges in some @Crap90sFootball and gives Marco Van Basten the easiest goal of his career.

JUST FUCKING LAUNCH IT, LADS!

pic.twitter.com/oNfYHiqjJt

— A Funny Old Game (@sid_lambert) November 8, 2018

People forget how endemic corruption was in the fairytale era of Serie A
https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football-allegations-mafia-links-maradona-s-napoli-1568036.html

Their most serious allegation is that Napoli threw a game at the end of the 1987-88 season in exchange for favours from the Camorra, whose bookmakers stood to lose a fortune if Napoli won the championship, which went to Milan.

This takes away some of the gloss undoubtedly

 

The so called Juventus-Milan joint venture started in the mid 1990s.

You don't like it but MvB actually does have a very high GoalImpact rating, somewhere between top 10 and top 40 depending on the algorithm. It's backed up by the raw data.

This suggests a certain upward influence on the results. For three different teams.

Meanwhile, the Juventus players of that particular time (mid 90s to mid 00s) don't show this, with two exceptions. Nor does Napoli indeed.

Is him being kicked into the hospital without any cards handed out (think of Cameroon in 1990 here) also corruption?

 

1.)the only thing subtracted is reading comprehension from your brain
Ive already covered this babroum


2.)i don't need media to tell me that c.Ronaldo who scored 4 goals+ 1 assist (out of 6 team goals) vs ligue 1 champions Marseille was a monster performance.
The inverted commas on the word source should've gave you an inkling that i dont really give a damn what goal.com says
It was more for your benefit

3.)it wasnt one performance
It was 2 back to back performances both rated 9.63 by whoscored
https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/3...mpions-League-2009-2010-Real-Madrid-Marseille
https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/3...ague-2009-2010-Marseille-Real-Madrid#heatmaps



The away fixture Platini 84/85 played vs Bordeaux doesn't exist on YouTube
Do you know why?
His team lost 2-0 and Platinis fans probably forgot to upload it and now we have simpletons who think the first leg was representative of Michels normal level


Platini 84/85 literally turned up in one leg vs Bordeaux
Disappeared in the final vs Liverpool
Disappeared in the QF vs sparta prague
and to top it off scored 5 of his 7 goals against non competitive joke teams the likes of ilves and grasshopper
https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/michel-platini/leistungsdaten/spieler/88994/saison/1984/plus/1

4.)i dont take pleasure in this but you are wrong
You are actually never right not even once

Real Madrid played a 4-2-3-1 formation against Marseille 2009/10 with CR positioned as a right sided attacking midfielder



As for the rest

Platini won 3 ballon dors between 1982-85

Literally and between those corresponding years jean tigana,alain giresse and Luis Fernandez won ligue 1 player of the year in succession


If you think Cristiano 2007-2014(his physical prime)benefited from a midfield core at intl level even remotely comparable to this youre just really a lost cause

 

Arjen Robben is a retired football player; this does not make you an expert on football; this does not make you a football analyst.

Do you know professional football players??

I know several of them; between training and playing, they barely have time to do anything else.

"Your career goes by so quickly... next thing you know, you are in your 30s, close to retirement."

That general statement is commonly repeated by all football players; they train, they play, and they spend time with their families, but they realistically do not have the time to watch hours and hours of football videos.

Arjen Robben nor any other football player of Robben's age, can compete with a person like me, when it comes to knowledge and analysis of football players; I have spent a lot of time collecting and watching all the games of the great players, from the 1980s to the present. I mean, in many ways I think we are what we do with our time; Robben was a football player; I am an obsessive football nerd.

I have been working on a game play system for a football video game since 2014, working on it full time in 2017, 2018, and again in 2020 as a result of the covid pandemic.

When I worked on the video game full time; when I was watching games as part of my routine of categorizing and identifying the basic elements of this sport, I was watching around 5 to 7 games per day, which means around 30 to 42 games per week... I mean, do the math as to how many games that is after 3 years of full time working on that video game.

I have watched literally all of the available games of:

Barcelona 1992/93, 1993/94, 1998/99, 1999/00, 2002/03, 2004/05, 2005/06, 2006/07, 2008/09, 2009/10, 2010/11, 2011/12, 2012/13, 2013/14, and 2014/15.

Real Madrid 1991/92, 1993/94, 1994/95, 1995/96, 1996/97, 1997/98, 1998/99, 1999/00, 2000/01, 2001/02, 2002/03, and 2003/04.

Chelsea 2003/04, 2004/05, 2005/06, 2006/07, 2007/08, 2017/18, and 2018/19.

Liverpool 2005/06, 2006/07, and 2007/08.

Manchester United 2000/01 and 2001/02.

Southampton 1992/93, 1993/94, and 1994/95.

Napoli 1987/88 and 1989/90.

Juventus 1983/84, 1984/85, 1991/92, 1992/93, 1993/94, 1999/00, 2000/01, 2001/02, and 2002/03.

AC Milan 2002/03, 2003/04, 2004/05, 2005/06, and 2011/12.

Inter Milan 1993/94, 1994/95, 1997/98, 2002/03, and 2003/04.

Roma 1999/00, 2000/01, 2001/02, 2002/03, 2003/04, and 2004/05.

Italy World Cup 1990, World Cup 1994, Euro 1996, World Cup 1998, and World Cup 2002.

Spain World Cup 1994, World Cup 1998, World Cup 2002, Euro 2004, World Cup 2006, Euro 2008, and World Cup 2010.

France World Cup 1982, Euro 1984, World Cup 1998, and Euro 2000.

Argentina World Cup 1986, Copa America 1987, Copa America 1989, World Cup 1990, Copa America 1991, Copa America 1993, World Cup 1998, World Cup 2006, Copa America 2007, World Cup 2010, World Cup 2014, Copa America 2015, Copa America Centenario 2016, World Cup 2018, and Copa America 2019.

Colombia Copa America 1987, Copa America 1989, World Cup 1990, Copa America 1991, Copa America 1993, World Cup 1994, Copa America 1995, World Cup 2014, Copa America 2015, Copa America Centenario 2016, and Copa America 2019.

Fabio Cannavaro's entire career, from his Parma days, to his Inter Milan days.

I mean, the list of games goes on and on; I have literally lost count, and would literally need to take a look the many notebooks I have with statistical data written on them, just to track down exactly how many games I have watched over the past 4 to 5 years alone; then again, I have been doing this thing of watching games since 2012, so it is a very extensive collection after many years of investing time in this sport.

At any rate, if you want to disagree with me, that's perfectly understandable, but when you say that Arjen Robber is more of an 'authority' than me, that's when you make yourself look an even bigger fool than you already were with your other bad arguments.

Arjen Robben is a football player, not a football analyst with years of experience.

Tom Cruise is a great actor, not a great director with years of experience.

Steven Spielberg is a great director, not a great actor with years of experience.

I mean, that principle should be self-evidently obvious to just about any person, but you unironically appear to believe that Arjen Robben, a retired football player, is by definition more 'correct' than I could ever by, even when I have watched football a lot more than Arjen Robben ever has and likely ever will. We are what we do with our time; Robben was a player, not an observer.

And as far as authorities go, honestly, I doubt you will ever find another person who has watched and analyzed this sport to the extent that I have. Of course, this doesn't necessarily make me 'correct' about everything I say, but at the very least, it makes me pretty damn educated about most of everything that I have to say. Being educated doesn't mean you are never wrong, it just means that you have formed your opinions - mistaken or not - from a lot of analysis.

I mean, I guess you could say that football managers are more knowledgeable than I could ever hope to be, but again, football managers analyze the game from the unique perspective of helping their specific clubs; football managers are not supposed to study the sport from the perspective of analyzing the great players in the context of their respective eras, etc.

A person in my position, knew that Juventus would become a worse team with Cristiano Ronaldo; in fact, I remember being the only 'crazy' person who predicted the decline of Juventus, when a majority of educated analysts were predicting a great future for Juventus in the Ronaldo Era.

Cristiano Ronaldo is a limited athlete and a limited player; his movements are limited and robotic when he is not running at full speed; his ball retention is borderline mediocre, especially when compared directly against players who are actually genius-level at ball retention, etc.

Michel Platini is far better, both as a player and as an athlete; as an athlete, Platini has the pirouette micro-jumping ability, micro-twisting ability of Xavi, Valderrama, Pirlo; but what makes Pirlo truly unique, is the fact that Platini also is gifted with the long galloping top speed of Steven Gerrard, which makes Platini a virtually perfect football player.

At Juventus, it was Zbigniew Boniek who offered the slalom dribbling that Platini lacked, which allowed Platini to do what he did best; Andrea Pirlo and Steven Gerrard rolled into one, quite literally. Platini and Boniek produced some of the most beautiful football I have ever watched; something I could never even dream of saying, in association to Cristiano Ronaldo.

How would Zbigniew Boniek look next to "physical prime" Cristiano Ronaldo??

Angel Di Maria looked a lot better in 2013/14 than in any other year with Real Madrid... Because Cristiano Ronaldo 2013/14 was already a mere poacher of goals, which allowed Angel Di Maria the freedom to deliver his best form, which was not possible when Cristiano Ronaldo was an overrated dribbler who demonstrably failed to offer actual end product via his actual dribbling ability.

Not only did Angel Di Maria immediately improved exactly when Cristiano Ronaldo stopped doing his overrated 'expansive' dribbling; but Real Madrid as a whole immediately improved, as demonstrated by the Champions League 2014, Champions League 2016, Champions League 2017, La Liga 2017, Champions League 2018, and La Liga 2020; Real Madrid won 6 titles in 7 years, ever since Ronaldo stopped dribbling, and including La Liga 2020 which was won literally without Ronaldo.

Real Madrid without Ronaldo also won the Copa del Rey Final in 2014, versus Messi and Barcelona.

Portugal without Ronaldo also won the Euro Final in 2016, versus a highly rated France side.

When did Michel Platini ever enjoyed the luxury of playing for teams that could well win without him??

How many titles did Real Madrid actually won when Cristiano Ronaldo was in his physical prime as the overrated dribbler he always was??

No Champions League titles, in fact, not one single Champions League Final appearance, Copa del Rey 2011 as an honorary mention, and only La Liga 2011/12 as a significant title... That is literally only 1 title in 4 years; Real Madrid immediately benefited when age-related decline forced Ronaldo into not dribbling in high volume.

Dybala became a shell of himself thanks to Ronaldo's parasitical playing style.

Benzema was the one who completed the tactical system, the intangible glue that held everything together in many ways, when Ronaldo was given all the credit at Real Madrid.

Cristiano Ronaldo is a limited overrated player; always has been; even after he stopped dribbling.

For a person with my hard earned experience, it was very easy to predict that Juventus Ronaldo Era would be a failed experiment; at least Real Madrid Galacticos Era actually won the Champions League and La Liga in the short space of 2 years, making it a far better experiment than Juventus Ronaldo Era.

The only reason why Real Madrid 2002/03 did not win the Champions League, was because Ronaldo Nazario was injured for the Semi Finals, and because Claude Makelele could not play the second leg of the semi final; Real Madrid was superior versus Juventus in the first leg of the semi final, with Claude Makelele as the best player of the match, and with Ronaldo Nazario almost deciding the whole thing in the first half of the first leg alone.

Real Madrid Galacticos Era could at the very least compete at the highest level, and this was with Luis Figo past his prime, with Ronaldo Nazario past his prime, and with Zinedine Zidane past his prime, so imagine the results if this team had come together between 1996 and 2001.

Juventus Ronaldo Era was eliminated by Ajax (2019), by Lyon (2020), and by Porto (2021); let alone by actual top tier clubs. Ronaldo's propaganda crashed against reality, and even then, people like you have the lunacy to say that Real Madrid Galacticos Era was a failed experiment, all the while you fail to see how much of an unmitigated consummate disaster Juventus Ronaldo Era actually was.

You have nothing valuable nor intelligent to add to most discussions, ever since you decided to become a Ronaldo worshipper; you are a fan of Ronaldo, far more than you are a fan of football, and I think that most members in this forum can see that. I mean, honestly, I used to think you were better than this, but the truth is that you have gotten worse with age; experience has not been good to you, and I cannot help but wonder what you did with your time.

 

I agree with Thiago, but I think he is misguided in thinking that VAR is making football more boring; as I've said many times before, I think modern football is boring, because it continues to be regulated by the yellow card, when in reality the modern game long ago learned how to circumnavigate (make obsolete) the yellow card, which has created an unprecedented constitutional imbalance in favor of tactics.

Both the players and the fans should eventually get tired of this boring era of hyper tactical football. It is the most logical conclusion to this decadent era.

People like @celito are just tactical fetishists, statistical fetishists, pseudo intellectual robots, with nothing of actual substance to add to this or any other football discussion.

If Messi is mediocre, as he was versus Liverpool in the second leg; then obviously Messi was outstanding, because people like Celito cannot tell the difference between easy things created by team edge, versus actual individual actions that create value out of virtually nothing, which is what is traditionally expected from players like Messi.

If Messi is plain bad, as he was in both legs vs. Roma; then obviously Messi could have done nothing to change the outcome of the result, because this is a team sport, and Barcelona at the time as simply too bad a team, to the point that not even Messi could've salvaged the unmitigated disaster that this Barcelona team allegedly was.

Modernists like Celito take no risks at all, before any game, they already have all the answers to all the possible outcomes, so that Messi is never actually bad in such a way that Messi was directly responsible for the result; it is a team sport and Messi cannot realistically change the outcome; but also, Messi is the goat because it is so obvious, look at his performances when Barcelona was a virtually perfect team in literally all positions on the pitch, etc.

I mean, there is no actual line, where modernists like Celito and Carlito would say...

"The game needs to be more balanced between tactics and balance. The modern game is just too tilted in favor of tactics, to the point that it is now borderline unwatchable."

That line doesn't exist in the perception of the world of people like Celito and Carlito; because in this modernist delusion, newer football is by definition always better than older football, because Celito and Carlito will always automatically (like good old sheep) agree with the status quo, and the status quo is always going to push new football as the best version of football there ever has been, because that quite literally is how business works; business men will never tell you that the model from 1998 was in fact better than the model from 2021.

 

The real problem with quoting football professionals is this: while it is true, as Carlito said, that they know more about football than the average fan, whenever they say something about a player they are not exactly taking an university exam. Basically, people have no way to know if a specific statement or comment is the result of some deep and careful thinking on the respective issue or it is simply one of the blanket platitudes they are expected to say (especially since the latter is more often the case).

 

I do think you should be fair and acknowledge that Tigana and Giresse were both playing for Bordeaux in that 1985 semi final. The Portuguese midfield was not inferior to that of Marseille 2009/10 I don't think was it? So that Marseille midfield also not remotely comparable to the one of Bordeaux's European Cup semi final team I guess we'd agree?

Anyway, I'm not sure you didn't understand this already (I think you did now I read this very post above I quote lol - sorry!), but just for clarification the French Player of the Year award was for domestic players only until 1996 (Eric Batty of World Soccer did IIRC pick Tigana as his world player of the year rather than Platini to be fair for 1985, but he famously liked to go against the flow with these kinds of things I believe, like he did also in some Team of the Year selections - I mean all-star XI not literally club or national team of the year).

This is the Tigana performance in the Bordeaux home leg (not really to make a point, but just posting it in case people are interested to look at it):
Jean Tigana vs Juventus | 1984/85 European Cup Semi-Final | All touches & actions - YouTube

For me, Platini's best game vs Liverpool in 1985 was in the European Super Cup, but to be fair it was his pass from deep which set Boniek clear to win the penalty in the European Cup Final too, but the sad events of that day overshadowed the game anyway.

 

You have delusions of grandeur

 

Marseille 2009/10
Elo 9th highest ranked team in Europe
2068 points accumulated
http://www.elofootball.com/index.php?season=2009-2010#club


Bordeaux 1984/85
Elo 14th highest ranked team in Europe
2015 points accumulated
http://www.elofootball.com/index.php?season=1984-1985#club

Cristiano Ronaldo
4 goals+1 assist vs Marseille(2 legs)

The assist was a penalty he earned which was in turn scored by Ricardo kaka

What is not mentioned is the manner in which he earned the assist picking up the ball in his own half before proceeding to dribble past 2 defenders on the flank before being hacked down in the penalty area

Platini/van basten could absolutely never in their wildest dreams demonstrate such attacking prowess
from the 35 yard FK,the slalom dribbling run past 2 players leading to the assist,shots/headers ricocheting off the post,2 or 3 clear cut chances he created,the immense ball carrying threat he presented over both fixtures


Alot of you guys debate for the sake of debating
Not even in a alternative universe is platinis performances vs Bordeaux even remotely comparable


Assist at 4:48(the 2nd comp)
Why ping the ball 40 yards over the defence when you can literally it carry it past a myriad of defenders into the box
During his best phases he was something like hazard/van basten combined as demonstrated previously

Judge for yourself im done here

Michel Platini
2 goals+1 assist vs Bordeaux(2 legs)
Completely disappeared in the 2-0 away loss
Disappeared in the QF and final
This is his best EC campaign

In the French league of the 70s,80s,90s,00s etc Ronaldo would be a terror
In the bundesliga even worse
His WS average against German teams(periodic top 8 teams usually)is around 9/10

Something like 26 goals in 20 games vs dortmund,bayern,schalke,wolfsburg etc
https://www.thestatszone.com/archiv...o-scored-against-in-the-champions-league-8580


Against the bottom half of the table we can't even imagine

 

I came in to say this. Without going into other tangents, I think most awards back in the day were limited to domestic players.

By definition, all the international superstars at the time would've been surrounded by their national Player of the Year winners because that's the only ones who could've won it.

 

I mean, how shall I put this...

I would rather be a good natured hard working person with delusions of grandeur, than an insufferable asshole who takes pride in being ignorant, being wrong, and being lazy; offering bad takes at every given chance.

But please, do remind me...

How many former great players, have won more titles than Jose Mourinho??

How much experience did Jose Mourinho had as a player??

How intelligent were Pele or Maradona as goat-tier players themselves??

I mean, my friend, your argument is just bad and you are attacking my personality, not my argument, as you always do; it is frankly sad the extent to which you will defend Cristiano Ronaldo.

But hey, at least I can honestly say this about you; you are at least funny enough that I can at least listen to you, which is something I absolutely cannot say for Celito; I mean, OMG, Celito is so boring and so serious all the time, he puts me to sleep every single time he says the same one note thing he always says; I mean, what does he get out of saying nothing at all??

 

I mean, the real problem with it, with all due respect... is that it literally makes no sense... period.

A) To know more about football from the unique perspective of an actual player.

B) To know more about football from the unique perspective of a football nerd who collects and watches the games of all of the great players, past and present.

The two premises above, are completely different experiences, and being a professional player does not at all make you 'knowledgeable' when it comes to that type of discussion; which coincidentally is exactly the type of discussion that Carlito wants to have.

I mean, just one example off the top of my head...

Alessandro Nesta when he said that Ronaldo Nazario was 'unplayable' at the UEFA Cup Final in 1998...

In reality, that performance was more or less average relative to Ronaldo's level at the time; you can watch the performance on youtube, and you will struggle to find anything even remotely close to the fanciful description of Ronaldo as some unplayable force of nature.

The truth is that great players are extremely under the pressure of the manufactured consent, the propaganda; which means that most of them will tend to agree with the status quo; I mean, these players do not want to get black listed by the industry that they might work with in the future, either as pundits and/or as managers. It is the nature of business.

 

You're curiously obsessed with Marseille and Bordeaux. Weird...

Anyway :

Platini/van basten could absolutely never in their wildest dreams demonstrate such attacking prowess
from the 35 yard FK,the slalom dribbling run past 2 players leading to the assist,shots/headers ricocheting off the post,2 or 3 clear cut chances he created,the immense ball carrying threat he presented over both fixtures.

And :

Why ping the ball 40 yards over the defence when you can literally it carry it past a myriad of defenders into the box
During his best phases he was something like hazard/van basten combined as demonstrated previously

And :

In the French league of the 70s,80s,90s,00s etc Ronaldo would be a terror
In the bundesliga even worse

Just to be sure : are you talking about the 'terror' that was unable to score one single goal in 6 games vs France ? Whose overall record against other top national teams is mediocre at best (33 games vs England/Italy/Spain/Netherlands/France/Germany/Brazil/Argentina/Croatia - 9 goals) ?

 

To be fair...

3 out of the 9 goals were scored against Spain in 2018.

Spain in 2018 was probably not a top tier national team.

Spain's record has been mediocre ever since World Cup 2014.

Spain has not won one single game against a top tier national side, ever since Euro 2012; and at the risk of sounding pedantic, I cannot not make this abundantly clear; Euro 2012 happened almost a complete decade ago...

So in reality...

Cristiano Ronaldo has scored 6 goals in 32 games against top tier national teams; not the 'terror' that Carlito makes him out to be.

Oh and, of course, Ronaldo scored 2 goals against Netherlands at Euro 2012, exactly when Netherlands had already been beaten 2 times in the group stage; basically, Netherlands was beaten 3 out of 3 times at Euro 2012, and that is when 'mighty' Ronaldo made the difference, against an out of form Netherlands team.

Netherlands Euro 2012:

0 - 1 defeat vs. Denmark.

1 - 2 defeat vs. Germany.

1 - 2 defeat vs. Portugal.

Ronaldo's Portugal did the same thing as Germany and Denmark, but of course, when Portugal does it; it is all because of Ronaldo's unique magic and greatness.

Spain 2014 - 2018:

1 - 5 defeat vs. Netherlands.

0 - 2 defeat vs. Chile.

1 - 2 defeat vs. Croatia.

0 - 2 defeat vs. Italy.

3 - 3 draw vs. Portugal.

1 - 1 draw vs. Russia.

Portugal is literally the only top tier national team that has not beaten Spain in recent years, especially after Euro 2012.

Must be the Ronaldo 'magic' making that happen.

9 goals / 33 games.

4 goals / 31 games.

If for the sake of the argument, we eliminate Spain World Cup 2018 and Netherlands Euro 2012 out of the equation.

Same thing happens with Atletico Madrid; Ronaldo immediately becomes a goal machine, as soon as Atletico Madrid declined a few defensive steps.

But yeah, Cristiano Ronaldo would be the absolute unmitigated terror of any league of the 1980s and 1990s; especially Platini's weak French league... you know...

Michel Platini.

Jean Tigana.

Alain Giresse.

Safet Susic.

Jorge Burruchaga (crucial player for Argentina, at World Cup 1986).

Jean-Pierre Papin.

Chris Waddle.

Enzo Francescoli.

Carlos Valderrama.

Laurent Blanc.

Eric Cantona.

Zinedine Zidane.

Dragan Stojkovic.

Lilian Thuram.

Claude Makelele.

Patrick Vieira.

Thierry Henry.

Robert Pires.

Ronaldinho.

Franck Ribery.

Karim Benzema.

Raphael Varane.

Paul Pogba.

Kylian Mbappe.

N'Golo Kante.

That is what I call a weak second-rate league; the league that literally created and/or helped develop many of the best players to have played the game in the previous 3 or 4 decades of football.

The only league that could rival that record, is probably only Spain; neither Italy nor England have produced the same consistent level of domestic talent, versus imported talent.

Anyways, I am sure @carlito86 is going to totally dismantle my pathetic hater argument, by showing me a wall of Cristiano Ronaldo youtube videos doing his circus show against a majority of weak opponents.

 

Mate, at least I have something original to say, and I am actually saying it to the people who I consider friends; unlike you, I do not go around attacking people who disagree with me.

The only irony here is how far removed from reality you are, that you fail to understand the obvious context here. But yeah, you can continue your passive aggressive hate campaign; I guess that's what you are here to do, just attack and attack the same person.

Have at it.

 

Yeah, true, there was a separate award for foreign players in France (both being calendar year ones apparently, but I'm not quite sure whether only based on French domestic performances or factoring international club and even international country games in - some French posters might know more but I'm not sure):
France - Footballer of the Year (rsssf.com)

What could have been more relevant for the points of Carlito re: France and me re: Bordeaux is the Ballon d'Or results. Giresse being 2nd in 1982, joint 11th in 1983, 9th in 1984 and joint 21st in 1985, and Tigana 2nd himself for 1984. Fernando Chalana, of Portugal, came 5th that year, and transferred to Bordeaux at the start of 1984/85, but being fair I don't think he impressed as much as expected there and his Ballon d'Or placing was mostly based on his Euros games I'd think. Patrick Battiston was another accomplished French international at Bordeaux (sweeper for them, but more often playing right back for the NT).

 

That's a better illustration of his point, I think. His French teammates were rated quite well in the Ballon d'Or.

 

There are some things I'd phrase different, but good point by leadleader on the French league.

Crosspost from another forum section:

 

I would say it is fair to view the 1980s French NT as a sort of golden generation, especially for France who perhaps haven't had a similar set of circumstances before for their NT (not sure if Kopa and Fontaine were ever surrounded by as much talent, for example). It is rare for a NT to be blessed with both a strong core group of players and ATG players at their peak.

 

I think in attack they were, with players like Piantoni and Vincent at inside left and left wing respectively. Not so much in defence or deeper in midfield probably, but Jonquet had quite a big reputation (but got injured during the match vs Brazil in the 58 WC).

In that sense the goals tally (and goals conceded tally) at WC 58 makes sense I think...albeit it was a higher scoring time than most eras anyway still at that moment.