I've told you. One - Ipswich in 2001. They were relegated the following season. No other teams have matched the feat. As to "due diligence" and who does what, we're the ones telling you that experience and precedent tells us our position is the correct one and you're challenging that established wisdom. Which is cool, but it really rather behoves you to do the legwork. Nice move though. Above and beyond that, let's just reconvene in May and discuss this afresh once Everton have finished no higher than sixth.
Well yes, a bit of license, but I wanted to give him something. His general point is well served by the Ipswich story, even if they didn't actually finish in the top four. Their preformance that season was excellent. But sure, the precisely accurate answer to his question is "no one has ever done it".
OK, here's where I gotta jump in...unfortunately, after watching Morinho for 4 monthss, I'm of the opinion that he 'gets it' - unlike RealM or Cudicini in his year at Chelski, one doesn't build a team by assembling supersstars at every position and then throwing them on the pitch. You need role players, as Real have found out by not re-signing Makele and Morinho has demonstrated by putting him directly into the side. I will agree with you that Gerrard would slot nicely next to him, but whither Lampard? Play FL and SG together - then Stevie is probably the D-mid, and that goes back to your point about Barca and Real. In Chelsea's setup, does SG really provide that much more than Frank - 30M pounds more? (not that Roman is worried about the $) Put FL on the right, you say? Can we then have Duff in return? I don't see it. I don't think you put Lampard on the bench and expect him to stay or like it - he's not Parker. One more factor to consider - FL is one of the highest paid players on the squad - what messge does it send to players throughout Europe that no matter how well you play (and FL has played extremely well) you will be benched at Chelsea for the 'flavor of the month'. At some point, even the best players will hesitate to come if they think they won't get the playing time.
I'll answer for nicephoras because I think I know what he would say. Chelsea play with 3 central midfielders, and it would be Tiago who would lose his place, not Lampard or Makalele. Chelsea could definetly use Gerrard, as could ever other team in the world. Its just up to Stevie if he goes or stays.
WTF are you talking about now? In my first post, I implied that Everton might be headed for the slide because they lost Graveson to Real Madrid. I didn't come in here challenging any "established wisdom." The implication is that I have presented the null hypothesis, and it's up to you to say it isn't correct. The burden is actually yours, Matty, if you think Everton had no chance, to prove it. You can't say you don't have to because it's "established wisdom." Nice move, though.
But what the hey, I have the day off. 2003/04 table: Let's look at Fulham. Luis Saha scored 15 goals in 21 starts for Fulham last season. He sat the bench as he successfully forced his sale to a bigger club. At Man. United, he scored 7 goals in 9 starts. It appears his form did last the entire season. He also would have started more than 30 games in total if he had continued to play for Fulham. How many more points would Fulham have earned with 7 or more goals after January? Nine more points would have edged Liverpool for a CL spot. Scott Parker also had Charlton up the tables before he was successful in forcing his trade. He also sat the bench for Charlton in January. He's not a striker, so his contribution is not as easily quantified. Still, we are left to wonder how many more points his all action, box-to-box style was worth to Charlton.
Doesn't work like that. But, to sum up - yes Everton will miss Gravesen. Badly. But no, it will not be the reason they finish outside of the top four again this season, as they would have done that anyway.
I didn't say you were "lucky" - I simply said you aren't as good as your record. Not miles worse, just not quite as good. That's all. ALL teams have luck. We've benefitted from it too, this year, despite our goal differential Its just that we need luck for considerably fewer games, is all.
Yup - that's exactly right. We play a 4-3-3 with Makelele as the holding midfielder. Smertin/Tiago/Jarosik/Geremi/kitchen sink have occupied the other role. Gerrard slots in perfectly, and I'm guessing Mourinho wants Parker to eventually step into Makelele's role. Gerrard will end up as a holding mid later in his career, but certainly not now. I have no interest in playing him as a Makelele type, which would waste his wonderful offensive talent.
OK, but Everton have also spent money on Beattie. So they got a "top" player in exchange for another "top" player. Notice the quotation marks. The reason? I don't think Gravesen is THAT good, (not for Real, anyway, for whom he's a stopgap) nor Beattie. But these are "top" players, so to speak. Also, I don't know that Everton will fall. I only know what history teaches me. And just like it teaches me that soldiers "liberating" Iraq wouldn't be met with flowers, it teaches me that teams that overperform will eventually revert to form. Its not that I know so, its that all available evidence suggests its true. But again, you'd have to assume Scott Parker or Saha were worth 9 full points to their sides OVER THE SECOND HALF alone. And less than half, as both moved with about 15 games left to play. That's closer to a third, really. So is Louis Saha really worth 2 points every three games? No. Have you looked at the Spanish league recently? Sociedad climbs to second, qualifies for the CL, founders miserably the next season. Mallorca makes it to third, does the same. Celta makes it - gets relegated entirely. Its not an isolated statistic, its actually a pretty decent trend. Minnows that make it to the CL do not perform well. I'd bring up an English example, but we haven't had one in quite some time. Nor have I said that they would be "doomed". I'm sure Everton fans would love to see Real or Milan or Bayern coming to Goodison. Sure! But long term, its a losing proposition, because it encourages you to spend money you don't really have ("we can make the CL again!") and makes a thin squad play a lot more games during the midweek which are considerably more stressful. ManUtd is struggling to beat Exeter with a squad larger than ours. Everton would have to worry about the team they'd run out against Inter and then remember to play Norwich. Not sure how well that'd go. I do have a good idea though. Not well.
OK. I have to fess up to a bit of selective reading. The Mallorca, et al. info has sunk in. Yet I'm not certain the travails of Spanish minnows tells much about the English experience. I understand though if that's your justification for doubting Everton. And also, No, you didn't say Everton were "doomed," merely that "making the CL would be DISASTROUS." Of course, you then explained that the "disaster" would be reverting to a "midtable side next year" and struggling in the league. Well, for Everton, a side who were tipped by literally everyone for relegation this season, mid-table performances next year is certainly more than acceptable, and combining the struggle of staying up with CL and possibly EUFA Cup action probably washes out the heartache of the fans. Besides, if they were to revert to relegation fodder anyway (as they supposedly were this season), there is no harm in adding Champions League revenue and excitement to that.
Okay, can we just quit all this incessant blabbering about Everton and how they won't stay up in fourth because of goal differential and how your not a very good lawyer and all this silliness. I go to the Liverpool boards to read about Liverpool Football Club. I do not go to the Liverpool boards to read a Chelsea fans 500-word dissertation on why Everton will fall to sixth. And I also don't expect to see an Everton fan writing a rebuttal of EVERY SINGLE POINT made by the Chelsea fan. And I then get ticked when I see a re-rebuttal made by the aforementioned Chelsea fan rebutting EVERY SINGLE POINT made by the Everton fan. I figured the moderator might stop it, but since he didn't I will make an effort. Please, just move this discussion to the Everton board where it belong. I personally hope Everton finish nowhere higher than fifth. ------------------------- "When my brain exploded, it was the best thing that ever happened to me. I have such a better life now." -- Sharon Stone "I'm not very politically involved ... I mean, if you say you're a Democrat, that'll turn off Republicans, and that's half of your fan base." -- Lindsay Lohan "I may have smoked too much weed, but I wasn't taking drugs or anything." -- Mike Tyson on his loss to Lennox Lewis "Joy Division is the only good thing to ever come out of Manchester, and then the lead singer went and killed himself." -- Me
Let me just bottom line this for everyone. If we finish out of the top 4 then I SERIOUSLY doubt that Gerrard will stick around. Why? Gerrard even said last summer and after Morientes was signed that we need World Class players. Well, unless we qualify for the Champions League there won't be much money to purchase quality players. Six weeks after the AGM we still have no update on potential investment and we are struggling to afford a keeper who probably only costs 1.5M.
I don't think anyone seriously disagrees with you. And as other posters have said, even a 4th place finish might not be enough. It's not so much where we finish, it's how we finish. There has to be signs of progress, and if we don't look like we're challenging for the title in 2005-06, he'll be wearing blue or white, not red.
In our current situation selling SG mightn't be a bad thing. If it happens it'll be in the summer. He is a great player but his sale might bring 3 world class players who will not spend the next year looking around for Chelski to come calling. Every day our other players listen to the "will he stay or will he go" and are distracted. We need a whole squad and this may be the way to get there.
I was just thinking the same thing. Two world class wingers and a pacy center-half. Unless there is some kind of investment, I don't see any other way to fund the influx of players that we obviously need. I really hope he stays at Anfield, but its looking more unlikely with each poor result.
I said the same thing about Rooney. So far, our Judas money has gotten us Beattie. Don't sell Stevie G. He's your identity.
Well, every time I try to state my opinion about Liverpool in this forum, you guys just jump down my throat. Not all Everton fans are trolls.
I tried to say that you were giving us a bit of good constructive thought -- not to accuse you of trolling --- but I also had to put some edge on it. I agree that you are not a troll.