There's an (2012, I guess, or it is even a tad before, or a tad later?) interview of Förster on a couple of websites about Olympique de Marseille. In Germany he was nicknamed "Der Treter mit dem Engelsgesicht" : something like "the angel-faced who plays dirty". Förster says : "Yes, a journalist called me like that at the time and I did not like it. I played tough but never to hurt." He then gives his views about the current German team by adding that at the Euro and more generally during the last years, the national team became too gentle, is not tough enough. Then he goes further by saying that they lost in the semi-finals or in the Final, lately, because the other teams were superior to them at what they were superior in the past (at what exactly, he doesn't make the precision). And concludes by going back on his first idea : also, we lack a certain toughness that is crucial for this type of match, and that was obvious against Italy and Spain. That's his view on things anyway. During the interview, the interviewer and Förster also mention the fact that the elegant German defender helped to appease things between France and Germany after the Sevilla '82 episode starred by Schumacher, by playing at OM. He helped at restoring the image of the German footballer in France.
All great stoppers were/are tough.yes,he was right in his term but compare him to semi-contemporary/ contemporary like Gentile,Vierchowod,Ruggeri,Collavati or next gerneration after him like Stam,Vidic,Cannavaro or Kohler he was the cleanest stopper and I'm so sure.
I have read articles where Chelsea's Thiago Silva is credited as having had a very good game vs. Real Madrid in the second leg. I did not watched the game... Is there any truth to these reports?
Chelsea’s defence as a whole kept Real Madrid very quiet, but that’s mainly because Real Madrid struggles to even get the ball to Benzema in Chelsea’s third. Thiago Silva was fine, solid as usual, but he did not do anything particularly special defensively.
The difference between Madrid and Chelsea, physically, can be nicely summarized by this short clip: 1390243423442116612 is not a valid tweet id
I can see similar in those two although they are in same generation(Forster is older than Tom 4years.)
Paul Brietner nowdays is so handsome and charming,he could be Bond-villian or even Hollywood leading actors.He have been aging like fine wine.I think today he looks better than when he was played football lmao.
I think Nesta is a serious possibility for peak (as I indicated myself), however there are also a few caveats. Most notably: - Despite playing at the top for quite some time, he had only twice the (joint-)best defensive record of the league. That was in 1998-99 (when he missed half of the season) and in 2010-11 (he won the league). Obviously one has to play with other defenders too but in the end it is something that reduces the certainty around the call. In the Champions League, even while sitting deep, the numbers aren't outstanding either. - I get the idea about his defensive technique, his acrobatics and his laser guided, pin-point tackles (domestically Van Tiggelen is/was most famous for this, more than anyone else). At the same time, he had his seasons with over 15 yellow cards, while completing less than 40 games in the season (the 1997-98 season for instance, with the run to the UEFA Cup final and Coppa Italia final). I wonder to what degree this allowed him go "all-in" and bet the full house when making a move. The trade-off alters when a mistimed tackle (almost) immediately results in a yellow card (this assumes referees are even-handed and without implicit biases, which is simply not always the case). For a large part of his career, this was - additionally - still a time where more was allowed. Here at 1:00 you can see the jeune capitain tackling down Ronaldo Nazario, for which no yellow card was given by the often designated "best referee in history" (Pierluigi Collina). Not hard to imagine the card tally goes above 20 in the post-Calciopoli era in that way. He was really not Scirea in this regard (Scirea doesn't quite have the 'peak' imho - I used to think/wonder different about this). If this tackle on Ronaldo is actually successful though, then it is another one for the highlight reel - and there are more examples like this. Unfortunately we don't have reliable stats for that era (we only know VvD is near/at the top in clean tackling in comparison to his peers). Now, there are a couple caveats for VvD as well, for example that the execution of the high line greatly depends on his team-mates (it depends on the midfield applying pressure and TAA/Gomez not messing up their positioning). This has been true for the national team as well, even though there have been games where he very successfully limited a Cristiano Ronaldo or Mbappe.
Pepe's antics early in his career really did some damage to his legacy. He was very arguably the better half of the duo he formed with Sergio Ramos and that isn't nostalgia talking. A thread from the Real Madrid subreddit 4 years ago essentially boils down to the opinion that Pepe was not only more consistent but also the better defender. Ramos, conversely, due to his attacking ability and higher ceiling/peak, was arguably the better player. https://www.reddit.com/r/realmadrid/comments/4wacr1/serious_is_pepe_a_better_defender_than_ramos/ In any case, it's odd that a player with such an impact, being considered, by club fans, as the better defender relative to another player who is considered by many as an all-time great center-back, is essentially not even mentioned 3 pages into this thread. A player with 3 Champions League titles to his name and the undisputed MotM in Portugal's first final win, with 3 consecutive appearances in European Championship Team of the Tournaments (2008, 2012, 2016). With respect to the last point, I'm pretty sure no other defender has achieved such a distinction.
@benficafan3 I too have Pepe as a better defender than Ramos during their time in Real Madrid. And his performance against Juventus recently was a real throwback When would you say his peak was?
Good question my friend. He's been so consistent across his career, at such a high level, it's difficult to pinpoint a period, although if I had to, I'd say 2014-2016. Won 2 Champions Leagues with Real during that period and had arguably his career-high against France, playing the role of a crucial team-member in simultaneously becoming European champion for both club and country, in the same year. Few players in history can claim such a thing. Especially defenders. What about you?
In the main I think Baresi is a possibility for peak as well (but I also checked off 'lesser' names as Vidic, Terry for this), but they are not entirely like-for-like replacements. They had a different aerial approach for instance. But I guess Baresi with his playing style (at his peak) would rank pretty high in WhoScored too, for a defender. There is a 'connection' between the two players in the sense Baresi regarded Krol as his main example and he was also pretty early in highlighting Van Dijk (in 2015/2016; he played against Italian teams and the national team after all), culminating in Baresi going as far as saying he should have won the Ballon d'Or. https://www.fifa.com/worldcup/news/baresi-real-football-fans-know-how-important-defenders-are Baresi his peak I'd say is roughly 1987 to 1992, the late 80s to early 90s (he received his first international honors in 1988). After this he became more error prone (in the sense of totally unforced errors, not under pressure, pace or hurry) and his disciplinary record deteriorated. In 1992-93 he received his third and final Ballon d'Or top 10 placing (after 1989 and 1990) but he received two straight red cards and also saw out other suspensions. Age was kicking in while he still achieved a few things clearly (three CL finals, suspended in one; three Serie A titles; a World Cup final). Just like wm442433 said in the past I think he needed a few more fouls by then as he previously did. Where Baresi wins points is the 'tactical' nature of his ascendancy. Although some features like his commanding of the offside trap are now obsolete, you can argue the novelty of his overall job was greater as any center back since. On the other hand, he also received a high level of protection from his defensive midfielders (the more so when Desailly came in) and his defensive minded full-backs. This shows the difficulty of making comparisons between eras laying 30 years apart. One might wonder what had happened if the young Baresi wasn't rejected by Internazionale. I reckon he most likely would still end up at the top, but would he then be more seen in the regions of a Blanc, Hierro, Bergomi, Nesta or so? Maybe. In terms of relative importance to their team, I think both have their merits. The long term absence of silent captain Baresi was on display near the end of his career (1996 and beyond), however statistics and results suggest other Milan players were more vital (e.g. GoalImpact, other data). Milan was on the short and medium term pretty fine when he missed games; around 1989 they missed Gullit a lot more - just by results and goals conceded. This also reflects however the higher premium placed on defense, and Milan regarded as a higher caliber team/squad as e.g. Liverpool so of course there's a higher probability absences aren't felt as much (against top quality opposition, which in the 1994CL run they only faced in the final). Personally I think Van Dijk his 2019 (and 2020) is markedly, significantly and noticeably better as Baresi in 1989 for reasons I've spelled out and explained previously, also at national team level, but Baresi in 1990 - when he finished three places lower in the Ballon d'Or - compares pretty well (he was even topscorer in the Coppa Italia although they were all penalties, even if he was sometimes at the beginning of the move). Same for Baresi in 1992; because Italy didn't qualify for the tournament he ranked only 20th in the BdO and likewise awards. I think that campaign is also an apt comparison - with some room for uncertainty and margin of error (without splitting hairs).
I'm not sure if you have me blocked, in which case you couldn't see the post, but I actually mentioned Pepe in my 'dirty' defenders selection: Back 4: Sergio Ramos. Pepe. I am unsure about dirty wide defenders, as most wide defenders appear to be more or less 'clean' in nature. Maldini and Alves would appear to be more on the dirty and cynical side, as far as wide roles go. Paolo Maldini. Dani Alves. Midfielders: Javier Mascherano. Casemiro. Michael Ballack. Zinedine Zidane. Forwards: Eric Cantona. Luis Suarez. In retrospect, my selection is very one-sidedly in favor of modern players... As for Pepe versus Ramos; Pepe was a great traditional defender, and as such, he was easy to rate as a great defender; with Ramos, it is a lot more difficult to pin point exactly what made him a great defender. For example, I think Ramos as a wide defender is similar to Paolo Maldini; at Euro 2008 and World Cup 2010, Ramos was very good at defending as a wide defender; but on the other hand, I am nowhere near as impressed with Ramos' ability to attack as a wide defender. That is basically what I think about Paolo Maldini; very good at defending as a wide defender, but limited in his ability to add to AC Milan's and/or Italy's attack. Of course, Ramos was doing it with attack-oriented teams; Maldini was doing it with defensive teams, which is always easier to do. So my general impression of Ramos, is that he was underrated as a wide defender, but at the same time overrated as a central defender; I think his legacy as a central defender has a lot more to do with the fact that he scored clutch goals in two different champions league finals, more so than his actual solidity at the role of centre back. At any rate, Spain's defensive record is literally mediocre with Sergio Ramos and Gerard Pique... I think this is probably the result of Ramos and Pique both being elite when on the ball, but then both tellingly lacking the traditional defensive ability of central defenders like Carles Puyol or Pepe; both of whom proved their worth with different generations of players, which is arguably not something that can be said about Ramos nor Pique. Carles Puyol had perhaps his least impressive season in 2006/07, and then immediately came back with a strong 2007/08, a season that he finished with a solid performance at Euro 2008. Pepe is similar in that regard; his impressive Euro 2016 (arguably after his peak, same as Puyol in 2008), in a season where Pepe had already won the UCL title.
Video of three years ago: Ruben Dias vs Brighton;Dribbled past - 5Virgil Van Dijk 2018-19 season;Dribbled past - 0And people have the audacity to say Dias is better than Virgil. pic.twitter.com/y4P0OMNuSg— 𝘼𝙣𝙛𝙞𝙚𝙡𝙙 𝙀𝙛𝙛𝙚𝙘𝙩 (@AnfieldEffect) May 18, 2021
I should have phrased one aspect clearer: I think one might well think Baresi reached his peak one year (1987) before he started to receive international votes/recognition (in 1988) and about a year before Milan as a team became great. Maybe one can add 1986 too, but I settled for 1987. Before this I think it's hard. The further back one goes (seen from 1988), the more of an old school attacking libero he was, where he naturally sometimes opted out of his defensive duties. Someone like Peru FC included him for the very early years, but I think this is not tenable and logical. At this time the Italian league had a low coefficient (even outside the top 10 in some years), combined with him not playing in Europe or the national team (the national team had in a few years a relatively low Elo ranking as well). Thus I think it's hard to really assess this. It's not like Haaland for Salzburg or Van Dijk for Celtic/Southampton if you ask me (in the sense of playing against the best and internationally, showing a very positive upward effect, top 10 in WhoScored etc.). Then subsequently he has a second season in the Serie B, and two seasons with the lowest DBScalcio grades of his entire career. For me that is not enough (I regard these grades with a pinch of salt) but if I look how a 'poor' Milan at the time fared without Baresi (there are two incomplete seasons there) I think it's still a hard sell to include it as his individual peak. Around this time he got some games for the national side (but was excluded for the 1986WC squad), sometimes played out of position. This idea about individual peak starts to get interesting in 1986 (zero goal involvements) and then the more so in 1987 (when he has a respectable level of goal involvements, the best of his career, played still a bit more attacking). This is also based on what I've seen on video.
I think Van Dijk played at the level of these legendary defenders (Maldini, Baresi, Nesta, Thuram), but for a short time (2017-21). Now he comes from a bad season. I also think that Chiellini reached that legendary level for a few seasons (2011-14). But he didn't have the same media coverage as Van Djik for playing in a league with less exposure. Maldini and Baresi played +10 years as the best in the world, not 4.